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Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:09 pm
by Phil2
Enlightened2B wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Just read this beautiful statement in Michael Brown's book "The Presence Process":

"We do not need to do anything to be present."

:D


But, that quote is basically a pointless quote in the context of this particular discussion (the last few posts) because it has nothing at all to do with the post above yours.



As a reminder the topic of this thread I initiated is about 'doing' vs 'being' ... I don't think the statement above is 'off topic' ... but maybe yours is ...

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:42 pm
by smiileyjen101
Phil said: As a reminder the topic of this thread I initiated is about 'doing' vs 'being'
,

And maybe Phil, the sense of 'suffering' that you mention as being a consequence of 'doing', is because you see them being at odds with each other, while (vs) others are sharing that they see no conflict, that one can, as Webby said
Though we do not 'need' to do anything to be present, that does not preclude being present in the doing.

And as ET says in the quotes above wherein 'doing' is done in awareness, and therefore not making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of any thing, person or situation.


..............................

A Hole in the Flute by Sufi Poet Hafiz
I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
I am the concert from the mouth of every creature
singing with the myriad chorus
I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music


If there were no 'doer', no 'individual' holes in the flute, there would be no music.
If there were only one hole, there would only be one note (perspective in experience).

The breath is always there, but the music comes from it flowing through individual 'holes in the flute' who are - awarely or unawarely, - participating, allowing, opening or closing in order that the breath flow in this particular moment, in this particular song, in these particular note/s, can be expressed and heard in this unique melody.

When you can both be aware of being the hole in the flute, and be the listener of the music.... it's just a different experience of the same breath that is always flowing there/here/everywhere.

When you realise this, when you are aware of this you can hear all the songs simultaneously and not think that your song, or rather the song within which you are participating - is the be all and all, or the only song being played or heard, and definitely not that you are in any way in control - apart from your awareness, capacity and willingness to participate and/or respond, which is yours and yours alone to decide.

But still, and always, we have a choice, depending on our awareness, capacity & willingness, whether to open our hearts - the holes through which the Christ breath flows, and be an instrument of being, and the same applies to whether or not we attune our ears to hear the music. The cacophony that is playing in every moment, even in that which we relatively perceive to be in stillness and in silence.

...............

So rather than see a conflict or a 'versus', one might go to the notion, first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is a mountain again - It makes no difference to the mountain if those standing before it see it or not, it already KNOWS it is there. While we are entitled to experience and express our own perspectives of the view, those views do not change the material facts.

It makes no difference if one is unaware or aware of the music they are participating in creating - melodious or discordant, music IS still playing. Playing awarely... well that's just yum.

'Doing' when one is knowingly being an instrument of creation... well that either makes you want to pee your pants, or silent tears to fall in humble wordless gratitude for the opportunity to do so.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:48 pm
by smiileyjen101
Phil, if you've ever sung in a choir, you will know that it's not about controlling anything, it's about freely, knowingly, willingly participating, knowing that that song will never play in the same way ever again.

This moment will never be lived in the same way again. There is only this moment.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:55 pm
by Enlightened2B
Phil2 wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Just read this beautiful statement in Michael Brown's book "The Presence Process":

"We do not need to do anything to be present."

:D


But, that quote is basically a pointless quote in the context of this particular discussion (the last few posts) because it has nothing at all to do with the post above yours.



As a reminder the topic of this thread I initiated is about 'doing' vs 'being' ... I don't think the statement above is 'off topic' ... but maybe yours is ...


Context Phil....context.

Let me re-phrase what I meant. Your response to Jen was this:

"We do not need to do anything to be present."


But, what does that have to do with Jen's previous post? She never once (in her previous post) said that you do need to do anything to be present. Maybe you should re-read her post because, while you have every right to disagree with her, I think you grossly misinterpreted everything she was saying.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:42 am
by Phil2
Enlightened2B wrote:Your response to Jen was this:

"We do not need to do anything to be present."


But, what does that have to do with Jen's previous post?


Nothing, this was not supposed to be an answer to Jen ... just the continuation of the thread as initiated ...

Better not make assumptions and stick to facts E2B ... I cannot say this enough ...

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:14 am
by Enlightened2B
Phil2 wrote:
Nothing, this was not supposed to be an answer to Jen ... just the continuation of the thread as initiated ...


ahh, I gotcha. Makes sense now.

Better not make assumptions and stick to facts E2B ... I cannot say this enough ...


Boy, aint that the truth! 8)

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:58 pm
by smiileyjen101
:wink: (with gentle love)

Better not make assumptions and stick to facts E2B ... I cannot say this enough ...

'make' (or not make)
'stick'
'say'

are verbs - 'doing' words.


.....

'Better' is a subjective qualifier, as is 'enough'.

:wink:

I read the quote as a separate entity, and appreciated all perspectives on it.

('read', 'appreciated' ........ awarely.. :P )

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:57 am
by SputnikSweetheart
Everyone has their own experience/path and the need for their own ratio of "being"/"having". But this discussion seems adequate precisely since society focuses so much nowadays, and in general in the last few centuries, on "having". The ratio is skewed too much in favor of "having" with little or no awareness of the "being mode".

I discovered a wonderful philosopher that touches on this idea very nicely: Erich Fromm. For example, one can look into this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F

I personally loved his book "The art of loving" and I believe he touches excellently on the imbalances of society in his day and age (roughly say, like 50 years ago). But whatever he points out, hasn't changed, or hasn't changed quite enough yet...

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:03 am
by SputnikSweetheart
Oooops... pardon me, I actually only read the first page of comments and did not that there are 6. Sorry for interrupting a conversation over here!!

I hope the link still proves to be relevant :)

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:44 am
by Phil2
SputnikSweetheart wrote:Everyone has their own experience/path and the need for their own ratio of "being"/"having". But this discussion seems adequate precisely since society focuses so much nowadays, and in general in the last few centuries, on "having". The ratio is skewed too much in favor of "having" with little or no awareness of the "being mode".

I discovered a wonderful philosopher that touches on this idea very nicely: Erich Fromm. For example, one can look into this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Have_or_to_Be%3F

I personally loved his book "The art of loving" and I believe he touches excellently on the imbalances of society in his day and age (roughly say, like 50 years ago). But whatever he points out, hasn't changed, or hasn't changed quite enough yet...


Thanks for the link ... and yes in our so-called modern industrial world all the interest and focus is put on 'having' (and 'doing') instead of 'being' (which in fact is not given any value at all, as it is by nature 'intangible', non-measurable) ... even love has become something to have, something to acquire, something to do (see all the meeting forums), while fundamentally love is something to BE ...

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:28 am
by smiileyjen101
Thanks for the link ... and yes in our so-called modern industrial world all the interest and focus is put on 'having' (and 'doing') instead of 'being' (which in fact is not given any value at all, as it is by nature 'intangible', non-measurable) ... even love has become something to have, something to acquire, something to do (see all the meeting forums), while fundamentally love is something to BE ...


Exaggeration alert Phil :D .... not all the interest and focus is... anything, you're just perceiving it to be so. :P

Just as there is no thing 'wrong' with that exaggeration / perceiving, neither is there any thing fundamentally 'wrong' with the way some perceive love as a thing to have or acquire - it's a perspective as narrow and flawed (fundamentally) as your own.

Perceiving having and acquiring love is a flow through experience of love itself - of creation energy flowing and being tasted for its sweetness or its bitterness, found as a falsity or realised as true.

Before during and after our mis-takes and tainted perceiving we already and always are pure love,' being'.

During and after our mistakes, we're still pure love, so by 'trying' and 'pretending' we can have or acquire love we learn not only what love is not, but also who we are not, and in so doing we know that which we could not know while we are pure love without the mistakes, perceptions, that cloak; and as the cloaks fall, we fall more and more into full awareness.

In this, I would say, mistakes are greater teachers than silence.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:17 pm
by Phil2
smiileyjen101 wrote:
In this, I would say, mistakes are greater teachers than silence.


Yes, when we will have made enough mistakes we will reach silence ...

As Mooji said :

"When the dreamer is tired from dreaming ... awakening happens" (Mooji)

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:33 pm
by Enlightened2B
smiileyjen101 wrote:
Just as there is no thing 'wrong' with that exaggeration / perceiving, neither is there any thing fundamentally 'wrong' with the way some perceive love as a thing to have or acquire - it's a perspective as narrow and flawed (fundamentally) as your own.

Perceiving having and acquiring love is a flow through experience of love itself - of creation energy flowing and being tasted for its sweetness or its bitterness, found as a falsity or realised as true.

Before during and after our mis-takes and tainted perceiving we already and always are pure love,' being'.

During and after our mistakes, we're still pure love, so by 'trying' and 'pretending' we can have or acquire love we learn not only what love is not, but also who we are not, and in so doing we know that which we could not know while we are pure love without the mistakes, perceptions, that cloak; and as the cloaks fall, we fall more and more into full awareness.

In this, I would say, mistakes are greater teachers than silence.


I've said this many times to you, but beautifully said.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:31 am
by smiileyjen101
smiileyjen101 wrote:

In this, I would say, mistakes are greater teachers than silence.


Yes, when we will have made enough mistakes we will reach silence ...

As Mooji said :

"When the dreamer is tired from dreaming ... awakening happens" (Mooji)


But not in this lifetime unless you're a rock - with no disrespect to rocks. Folks who pretend they are rocks are just creating another dream, and absolutely can still be awakened from that.

(think the hermit in The Life of Brian and how upset that he was that Brian didn't realise he was 'being a hermit')

As ET said in response to the question How do I know that the experience that I'm having is good for my growth?
....Because it's the experience you are having.

Re: 'Doing' vs 'Being' ?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:55 pm
by karmarider
smiileyjen101 wrote:Folks who pretend they are rocks are just creating another dream, and absolutely can still be awakened from that.


What about Mister Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and the Human Torch?