Fear of hell

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Webwanderer » Tue May 09, 2017 6:04 am

Do you genuinely want to do what's right?
Yes. But I also want to do what makes me feel more free, peaceful and joyful.

I've found them to be pretty much the same thing in the long run.


Do you honestly want to know and live by the truth - no matter where your search leads?

Yes. But I also want to do what makes me feel more free, peaceful and joyful.

Again, I've found them to be much the same.

Really, what God could ask more of you?

Blind obedience to the Roman Catholic Church?

I'm sure they would like you to believe that.


What doesn't "ring true" you say. What's the difference between "it feels true" and "I like the way it feels"?

It depends on the context. In any case, however it feels may not be entirely accurate. It may just be a step in the right direction.


Trust completely only your own internal guidance.

What if my "internal guidance" comes from Lucipher?

I love the 'what if' game. It's endless in its possibilities. 'What if' it's not Lucifer and it's God and you're denying Him? What if Lucifer doesn't exist except as a tool of control from the church? What if? What if? What if? It's back to the integrity of living as best you can under challenging circumstances and competing possibilities. What to do? Where do you look for answers? What feels best?

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Tue May 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Webwanderer wrote:'What if' it's not Lucifer and it's God and you're denying Him?
Then God is merciful and He will forgive me anyway? Oh, wait...now I can see, that this variant of Pascal's Wager thinking might be denied even by the Roman Catholic Church itself (one of the "unforgivable sins against Holy Spirit")...ok.

But, but, but...If God has founded Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church says that I should obey them...shouldn't then I obey them?

BTW: It seems that when I was little, I have had an inception that God has some kind of a Dissociative Identity Disorder.

One more aspect: do you know whre that "what if" about Lucifer has come from? It's from the insight that has inspired me to create that another topic: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13947

EDIT: And there's another aspect: I'm most probably not 100% honest with myself. I'm working on that, but still...any tip on that?
I'm also a coward (attachment to status quo, to absence of some emotions). And I think those 2 might be connected.
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby meetjoeblack » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:02 am

anonymousUser wrote:How to deal with the fear of hell?


YouTube Jordan Peterson Clinical Psychologist who is doing a series of talks on biblical stories. He describes "hell" similar to what those who are responsible for Columbine were experiencing. It was a sort of hell/chaos/darkness that, they acted out on everyone around them, and then, themselves. Its not this magical place. Its a level of consciousness. Its a bad trip on mushrooms. Its depression. Its negative thought loops. Remember to breathe.
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:06 am

anonymousUser wrote:But, but, but...If God has founded Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church says that I should obey them...shouldn't then I obey them?

Who says God founded the Roman Catholic Church? Maybe the church? Maybe some reference in the Bible? Who wrote the Bible? Inspired by God? Who says? Maybe the Church? And what about all those books left out and all those edits? Are such claims truly reliable? Could they be self-serving? Is there another, perhaps more reliable way?

It comes down to who is most likely to look out for your best interests? For me, I chose for the one who I had a clear sense of credibility. I could know what another told me was true, but I couldn't know what he genuinely felt - what was in his heart. As to taking personal responsibility, I can know what I feel about the direction I take and what I hold true. I know what my belief feels like. It's always there for me to reconsider and choose for greater clarity when direct insight arises - and the more I look to inner guidance, the clearer and more reliable it becomes.

I don't need an outside litmus test from someone who I can't possibly know how he or she got to their belief. And will anyone else be there to take responsibility for my beliefs?

When something feels right, I go with it until it doesn't, and then I move to what does feel most right through the increased sense of clarity that comes with the feeling. I like what it's done for me.

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:17 am

What about the fear of ostracism?

Webwanderer wrote:Who says God founded the Roman Catholic Church? Maybe the church? Maybe some reference in the Bible? Who wrote the Bible? Inspired by God? Who says? Maybe the Church?
So are you basically saying that they are just lying? But how evil they would need to be? How ruthless? How psychopathic? How mendacious? People are usually not THAT evil, are they? Yes, there are psychopaths, but afaik it's just a small minority. Were people at that times THAT psychopathic? Do we really live in such a hostile and insane world?

Webwanderer wrote:And what about all those books left out
As far as I know, "left books" have some things in common:

:arrow: Written much later
:arrow: Much more gnostic

Webwanderer wrote:and all those edits?
What edits?
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:29 am

anonymousUser wrote:So are you basically saying that they are just lying?

I'm not saying that they are necessarily lying. Like you, they may believe what they say and believe they are 'doing the Lords' work. They may have all the good intentions in the world. They may simply be wrong and are the product of their indoctrination - an indoctrination that is now self perpetuating into the children of those that already believe it.

One of the primary tenants of the Christian religion is that one must believe in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God to be 'saved' and go to 'Heaven'. Other religions have their own tenants that claim a similar 'only way' to get to Heaven of Paradise or whatever. The downside of this is that if one doesn't 'believe' the way their religious texts say, that one will go to Hell or some such unpleasant existence. It's the classic carrot and stick approach to keeping the flock together.

It's not necessarily a lie from the perspective in which it was given. Those religious practitioners are emotionally invested in their faith and deeply believe it. Think of how religion drum into their followers to have faith that their teachings are true. Being mistaken is not the same as lying. Lying requires a prior knowledge of, and then misrepresenting the truth. And while it may not be an intentional lie, it will very likely have experiential consequences. Remember, Jesus said "the truth will make you free". What do you think he meant?

What edits?

The Catholic Bible is but one Bible in many in print. There are many differences among them. Look to the History of the Bible to see how it was assembled and the many changes it's undergone. It wasn't written in English; and the translations from the Latin and Greek and Hebrew and Arabic writings from which it was assembled have undergone many different edits to correct the language. Who decided what was the proper translation from which ancient language was correct? It's just food for thought for someone genuinely interested in greater clarity. Don't fear knowing the truth. If you must fear, fear living a lie.

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:46 am

Webwanderer wrote:I'm not saying that they are necessarily lying. Like you, they may believe what they say and believe they are 'doing the Lords' work. They may have all the good intentions in the world. They may simply be wrong and are the product of their indoctrination - an indoctrination that is now self perpetuating into the children of those that already believe it.
But ALL of them? Over billion of people?

Webwanderer wrote:It's not necessarily a lie from the perspective in which it was given. Those religious practitioners are emotionally invested in their faith and deeply believe it. Think of how religion drum into their followers to have faith that their teachings are true. Being mistaken is not the same as lying. Lying requires a prior knowledge of, and then misrepresenting the truth. And while it may not be an intentional lie, it will very likely have experiential consequences.
And what about the beginnings? About the early church, with the apostles, who seemed to knew Jesus personally? Were they lying or just mistaken?

Webwanderer wrote:One of the primary tenants of the Christian religion is that one must believe in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God to be 'saved' and go to 'Heaven'. Other religions have their own tenants that claim a similar 'only way' to get to Heaven of Paradise or whatever. The downside of this is that if one doesn't 'believe' the way their religious texts say, that one will go to Hell or some such unpleasant existence. It's the classic carrot and stick approach to keeping the flock together.
Many years ago, I tried not to believe that. I tried to be an atheist, actually. But the fear have eventually won back then. I came to the conclusion, which I later discovered to be the (more or less) the Pascal's Wager, and which I would call a "game theory" nowadays.

Webwanderer wrote:Remember, Jesus said "the truth will make you free". What do you think he meant?
Which "me"? The peaceful me would treat it as a koan. The little, scared me, is inclined to blindly follow billions of people. Especially when it feels vulnerable.

Webwanderer wrote:The Catholic Bible is but one Bible in many in print. There are many differences among them. Look to the History of the Bible to see how it was assembled and the many changes it's undergone. It wasn't written in English; and the translations from the Latin and Greek and Hebrew and Arabic writings from which it was assembled have undergone many different edits to correct the language. Who decided what was the proper translation from which ancient language was correct?
Christians says: "The Holy Spirit!".
And Roman Catholic Church later adds: "We have the apostolic succession, so we have the authority here".

Webwanderer wrote:Don't fear knowing the truth. If you must fear, fear living a lie.
What I'm afraid of, is that the Christianity might actually be right. Or if not Christianity, then some other fear-based religion. But I usually don't give that much thought about other religions.

I have a problem, because game theory seems to favour fear-based worldview. And it's hard to trust yourself, when there are billions of people shouting at you. And I have very strong and very deeply rooted fear-based emotional attachements and habbits. And I have symptoms of OCD and OCPD, with extensive doubts. I am very self-doubting.
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Mystic » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:21 pm

anonymousUser wrote:How to deal with the fear of hell?


The hell concept is an invention of the fearful mind. Fear becomes compounded from identification with the fearful states of mind. Fear can be abated by creating some space between awareness of a fearful thought and the thought itself.



"Rather than being your thoughts and emotions, be the awareness behind them." ― Eckhart Tolle

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:21 pm

Mystic wrote:The hell concept is an invention of the fearful mind. Fear becomes compounded from identification with the fearful states of mind. Fear can be abated by creating some space between awareness of a fearful thought and the thought itself.
Yes, yes, thank you. That's what I do. But is there not a place for some complementary practice? Like working with beliefs for example?

EDIT: I have a doubt (however absurd that doubt may sound), which says that it may be the fear that leads to salvation, whereas the peace might lead to damnation. I mean: billions of people seem to be positive that's the way how the universe works: (fear ---> salvation and peace ---> damnation).
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:47 pm

anonymousUser wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Don't fear knowing the truth. If you must fear, fear living a lie.
What I'm afraid of, is that the Christianity might actually be right. Or if not Christianity, then some other fear-based religion. But I usually don't give that much thought about other religions.


I have a problem, because game theory seems to favour fear-based worldview. And it's hard to trust yourself, when there are billions of people shouting at you. And I have very strong and very deeply rooted fear-based emotional attachements and habbits. And I have symptoms of OCD and OCPD, with extensive doubts. I am very self-doubting.

My sense is that 'God' values integrity, genuineness, and love over fearful obedience to doctrine. For me it helps to recognize and keep close in mind that I am not some separate life form running to and fro looking for a heavenly formula to be accepted by a potentially angry God. Rather I am an extension of an infinite and unconditionally loving Life Source eternally exploring the possibilities of consciousness and being. This human experience is just one such possibility of and in an infinite number of amazing life venues.

There is no separation between you and I and that Singularity of Consciousness and Being save that of a temporarily limited perspective born of an interest in the uniqueness of this human possibility. Consider the scripture's description of God. Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent. As omni means 'all', it also indicates 'One'. No thing exists that is not an element of that One - Including you and I.

We are elements of our own Godly Essence exploring this consciousness environment much like our hands and senses may explore the nature of our lovers. Finding out what brings the most joy is our service to the purpose of our True Nature - God, Source, Essence. So explore, have fun, love and appreciate all you can in life. Be lovingly inclusive, not fearfully restrictive. What feels right in our most quite and genuinely open moments? Moments where we truly strive to be in alignment with the Source of our being? What would be our best gift to this Source Being? Loving creation, or fearing retribution? What feels right?

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:23 pm

Maybe. But it seems that I just can't get the possibility of an angry God out of my mind. Because I'm afraid that I should consider that scenario too.
ANY text - also from the scripture - can be interpreted through peace or through fear. So maybe it's not a matter of evidence.
Maybe it's a matter of choice: peace or fear. It seems that there is a 50% chance. Peace feels better. But it's hard to find complete peace when detaching yourself from your very deeply rooted belief system, that you had since childhood.

And there is also this aspect:

Webwanderer wrote:While we're doing the 'what if' game, consider this: What if your very fear and focus of attention is creating your own future experience? What if you are creating your own hell experience?


And my answer: "Then I will suffer in my self-created hell, but only temporarily. However, if the Roman Catholich Church is right, then I might burn in hell forever."

Simple game theory. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me to end that gestalt. I'm a house divided against myself. It seems rational to choose fear. But intuitively I want to choose peace.

And another thing: I want to be 100% honest with myself. I truly do. But I have habitual defense mechanisms.
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:53 pm

anonymousUser wrote:Maybe. But it seems that I just can't get the possibility of an angry God out of my mind. Because I'm afraid that I should consider that scenario too.

From where you stand, I would agree with all such considerations. Just do so honestly. Is angry an attribute of an infinite, eternal, loving God? Or is it more one of a human perspective projected upon God to frighten others into behaving in a certain way?

You don't have to decide one way or the other. It's better not to. In truth, any hard fast decision is more likely to lock one into a belief that stifles growth to whatever greater truth may be available. Explore with an honest desire for the truth no matter where it may lead, and you give yourself the best chance for clarity.

Something that I found helpful early on was to pray to God for guidance to where ever truth may lead. I chose to put God's truth above all else including the church and my own established beliefs. I was also willing to sacrifice whatever consequences may arise for genuine clarity of the true nature of being. That was a long time ago. It's been a worthwhile bargain.

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Re: Fear of hell

Postby Mystic » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:04 am

anonymousUser wrote:I have a doubt (however absurd that doubt may sound), which says that it may be the fear that leads to salvation, whereas the peace might lead to damnation. I mean: billions of people seem to be positive that's the way how the universe works: (fear ---> salvation and peace ---> damnation).


Maybe all things, including fear, eventually lead to salvation. Let us not be afraid of fear because it brings one back to the present moment awareness like a call to wake up. I become aware of my breath, become aware of the fear, become aware of the inner energy field - the inner body ...I am here ...I am now... :D
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby meetjoeblack » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:36 am

anonymousUser wrote:
Mystic wrote:The hell concept is an invention of the fearful mind. Fear becomes compounded from identification with the fearful states of mind. Fear can be abated by creating some space between awareness of a fearful thought and the thought itself.
Yes, yes, thank you. That's what I do. But is there not a place for some complementary practice? Like working with beliefs for example?

EDIT: I have a doubt (however absurd that doubt may sound), which says that it may be the fear that leads to salvation, whereas the peace might lead to damnation. I mean: billions of people seem to be positive that's the way how the universe works: (fear ---> salvation and peace ---> damnation).


Again, checkout Jordan Peterson vids on youtube. Clinical psychologist who is currently doing a biblical series. He was talking about the story of the Garden of Eden. So, you have a garden. It has a boarder. There is inside the garden and that boarder includes up and until where it is no longer the garden. You know the story. There is access to the garden followed by banishment and chaos outside the garden that they are now in.

Similarly, we do this in real life. There is chaos all around us or worse, within our own minds, too much ego, pain body, self reflection or introspection. We create a life. Maybe we date or start a family. People have this "life" created and outside this is that hell or chaos you mention. If you aren't challenged, you stagnate but, if you are challenged beyond your mans, you crash and burn. If you create this life but, you have delusions, and make-belief going on as many people do, when you are forced out of it, there is a sort of hell you come into. If you built a life all about this happy bubble job, it is all gone when it is over, outsourced or terminated. If you are married and it ends in divorce, you are in that hell and chaos. You had this vision and belief of how your life is and when it fails to align with reality, people spin out and enter a personal hell. Very fascinating stuff.
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Re: Fear of hell

Postby anonymousUser » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:56 pm

Thank you, Webwanderer. I guess that I might just have a Religious Trauma Syndrome. I am very vulnerable to aggressive proselytism/apologetics. They turn on the existentional anxiety in me and then I am more prone to obedience and/or fearful thoughts.
Thank you, Mystic.
Thank you, meetjoeblack. I've checked out Jordan Peterson. Once upon a time I've had that experience. I've found the "ultimate happiness" in a loving relationship. It was my deepest desire, my highest goal. And I have achieved it. But very soon it...jsut crashed...momentarily. I was confused and derealised. I have never returned to the place I was before. If I were to divide my life into 'before" and "after", I guess that would be it.
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