End Depression Now

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: End Depression Now

Postby sailing » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:00 am

:D I'm sure feeling the love on this forum. I'm so happy I found you all. :D
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Dongle » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:04 pm

I am not sure how to 'end depression' I am only clear on how I understand it as a phenomenon. I would imagine all people experience some degree of depression in their lives, it is those of us who experience many episodes of depression who find this how so elusive. As we experience each episode of depression we practice behaviours and thoughts that are aligned with a depressed state of mind. Through practice we entrench these behaviours and thought patterns such that each future episode of depression represents a culmination of all previous depressive states. In the most severe of cases episodes are periods where all thought is depressive, negative or detrimental to the self.

Being conscious of how our thoughts and behaviours tend to be not our own, or a product of practiced habitual states of mind, is extremely important, the climate of ones mental state of being is hinged on this consciousness as well as these states.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Onceler » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:18 pm

Yeah, I think you're right Dongle. Depression warps thinking and feelings into a black hole. In my experience, in the past, I am already sliding toward the hole before I realize it, and when I do (to late!). Awareness has at least allowed me to be aware I am sliding earlier in the game and make some changes; exercise is my strongest medicine, investigate thinking ala Katie, eat in the very healthy food group, etc.

Maybe throwing a ball for the "black dog" rather than letting it emanate its fog.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby aquarius123esoteric » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:11 pm

REFLECTIONS ON SUICIDE
Everything that is in our world has meaning and is always sent to teach us and our world something. It is my firm belief that our Creator does not call anyone back, unless the purpose of that particular lifetime has been fulfilled, at whatever age this may be and in whichever manner we pass on. It is important not to cling unto those who have passed on, because that can only hold both parties back in their evolutionary progress. If we love someone, we have to let them go in peace. To talk about anyone’s passing on as ‘untimely’, to my mind, means to doubt the great wisdom and love of our Creator. In case you are now asking: ‘And what about suicide?’ The way I see it, the Great Spirit, the Father/Mother of all life, is the Highest authority over everything in the whole of Creation; it is the only one who has any true power. Nothing is beyond or outside Its will, therefore, anyone’s departure from Earth life cannot ever come about without Its consent; this applies to any kind of death, therefore also to all suicides.
At the same time, quite literally, no-one is beyond the love and the mercy of God. After all, this is the only one in the whole of Creation who knows our heart and soul better than we do; thus, it knows when our mental and spiritual struggle has been going on for long enough. When anyone goes beyond the amount of suffering that is good and reasonable for their soul growth to endure, the Angel of death calls for them and sets them free to return into the world of spirit, our true and eternal home. I believe that, even in the case of suicide, the manner and the moment of our death are predestined, because they contain valuable lessons for the one who passes on, as well as for all who are left behind. Seeing that nothing in God’s Creation can ever be truly lost, in the final analysis, suicide is but another way of passing on.
White Eagle tells us in ‘The Way To The Age Of Spirit’ from ‘The Lightbringer’: ‘It is true, there is no death. When you have passed the great barrier, you will be amazed and say: ‘But I did not feel anything! Am I dead? I feel exactly the same.’ There is no difference, except you have taken one dress [your physical body] off and left it behind. You are no longer interested in it. That is all that death means. You are eternal and as you are today, so you will be tomorrow. As you create yourself, and build the spiritual atoms into your soul, you will be able to enjoy the fruits which the Lord has prepared for you, in the higher state of life.’
What is it that is stopping us from trying to escape wholesale from our experiences on this side of the veil, whenever the going gets tough? The loving wisdom of our Creator has ensured that deep within the very core of every soul memories are stored of the sacred knowledge of God’s true nature and of our own, as well as that of our true home. None can get away from themselves and their destiny, which is for each one of us that we shall eventually fully merge again with our Source. Please tell me, who in their right senses would want to get away from that? And yet again that drives the point home about the importance of taking ourselves and our character in hand. Wise ones, who are coming closer to the light of the knowledge of their true being, realise that taking one’s life never has been an escape route at all.
But like all our earthly lessons, each soul can only learn this through their own first hand experiences. That is what we do by committing suicide, at the end of at least one lifetime. On our way home to the realisation of our true nature, everybody has to face the arduous and heroic task of working their way through their fears. But we do not have to do this on our own, God and the Angels are waiting to be called upon for their help. And our love and devotion to our Highest Self is the only solvent that can help anyone to release themselves from all their inner prisons.
From White Eagle Stella Polaris – Oct/Nov 2002 comes the following wisdom: ‘A sorrow can be like a rainy day with Sunlight shining through. Sun through rain creates a rainbow, and so it is with human life! Look to the Sunlight of God, your [true] Father and Mother. Know that from God you receive nothing but good; that your loved ones are in Its care; and that Its love for them is greater than your own, in any case.’
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

Goethe
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:14 pm

Aquarious123esoteric, I take from your post that suicide, to escape from one's depression, could be a good thing. (This is after all a topic on depression)

‘And what about suicide?’ The way I see it, the Great Spirit, the Father/Mother of all life, is the Highest authority over everything in the whole of Creation; it is the only one who has any true power. Nothing is beyond or outside Its will, therefore, anyone’s departure from Earth life cannot ever come about without Its consent; this applies to any kind of death, therefore also to all suicides.
At the same time, quite literally, no-one is beyond the love and the mercy of God. After all, this is the only one in the whole of Creation who knows our heart and soul better than we do; thus, it knows when our mental and spiritual struggle has been going on for long enough. When anyone goes beyond the amount of suffering that is good and reasonable for their soul growth to endure, the Angel of death calls for them and sets them free to return into the world of spirit, our true and eternal home. I believe that, even in the case of suicide, the manner and the moment of our death are predestined, because they contain valuable lessons for the one who passes on, as well as for all who are left behind. Seeing that nothing in God’s Creation can ever be truly lost, in the final analysis, suicide is but another way of passing on.


While it seems true that life has lessons for all scenarios, that's hardly reason to commit suicide in an effort to escape ones suffering with the rationalization that by doing so would be beneficial in terms of the lessons offered to both self and loved ones alike.

That line of reasoning would justify chopping off ones foot and mounting it on the wall just to learn the lessons of life without that foot - and there would certainly be lessons available to self as well as those who would have to take care of the now footless one.

Look into the near death experiences of those who attempted suicide in an attempt to escape their suffering and lived to tell about it. Not one of them continued to think is was a good idea. Life in form is not without purpose. Many who have seen the "other side" have been sent back to lives of considerable pain and difficulty because it was in their greater interest to learn the lessons this world has to offer, despite any accompanying pain. Depression and suicide stems from the sense of isolation, despair, self-judgment and helplessness. (I'm sure the list could go on)

This thread was created as an opportunity to find ways out of the isolating mind set, into a clearer and awakened understanding of our true nature. It's an opportunity to gain freedom from isolating ego attachment. I'm sure there are instances where suicide doesn't have a great down side, but as an easy escape from depression, suicide is fools gold.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Dongle » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:27 pm

Suicide as an act is a manifestation of an intense inner conflict. Conflict that in my opinion arises out of the interchange between what we want, what we experience and what we think. We tend to box information to label and to create meaning, as we all know, just what meaning we create is determined in part by our mental state, a mental state of depression consequently results in meanings that perpetuate depression. What is interesting is how we engage and identify with those meanings as we create them.

What this means is that while depression is a reason for feeling depressed/experiencing depression, feeling depressed is an actively created meaning/mental state. So, to suggest that depression is an affliction is inaccurate, it has the potential to become an affliction/disease through the process I mentioned earlier, but it cannot be so when there is an active creation of depression. Human beings are subject to an innumerable collection of viruses, bugs, and physical afflictions each of which may have effects compounded by our mental state, but no such affliction has the same name as a mental state, nor the same properties as such a state as depression. All that occurs within our minds is essentially perceivable, and nothing occurs in and of its own free will, we are always required, we must identify and we must decide, nothing in our minds can ever be out of our control unless we make it so.

Suicide can only be understood as an escape, not as an escape from the mental state of depression, but from decision.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby sailing » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:42 am

Dongle wrote: Human beings are subject to an innumerable collection of viruses, bugs, and physical afflictions each of which may have effects compounded by our mental state, but no such affliction has the same name as a mental state, nor the same properties as such a state as depression. All that occurs within our minds is essentially perceivable, and nothing occurs in and of its own free will, we are always required, we must identify and we must decide, nothing in our minds can ever be out of our control unless we make it so.


I want to point out that the brain too, is an organ of the body that can be afflicted by disease/illness. Are you saying that brain & mind are entirely separate?

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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Dongle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:39 pm

I want to point out that the brain too, is an organ of the body that can be afflicted by disease/illness. Are you saying that brain & mind are entirely separate?


Not at all, I try not to advocate any sort separateness, I was talking only in terms of depression as a psychological condition, which for the most part is where it begins, it can and does manifest in deficiencies in brain chemistry, but for the majority of people these deficiencies are not inherent, they are a product of a psychological development.

In your post you talk about recurring episodes, I recognize in my mind tenancies, patterns of past behavior and thought that threaten to overthrow any stability I might accomplish through identification with them, and on the basis of my awareness of these patterns I understand depression in the same way as I understand how I eat my food. Both are a function of how I have habitually performed or practiced behaving. It is easy to change how we eat, why is it so difficult to change how we depress. I know at least a part of it is in the stabilization of brain chemistry for many individuals, though lasting change would necessarily require and acceptance of our position and a commitment to more productive patterns of behavior.

What I really wanted to communicate, is that there is always you, and that any thing that you do or think requires you, past patterns of thought and behavior are not you, depression is a product of these patterns, but can only be experience through identification with them, that is you making them you.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Onceler » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:43 pm

Aquarious123esoteric, I don't know that what you are saying is true. It sounds good. The whole life after death, return to the creator, now is eternal is quite compelling and you speak of it well, but we don't know that it is true. It may well be a fairly tale.

I have basically said the same thing to people I have counseled who are suicidal. What we do know is that we have this life. That's all we can say. To suggest anything else, especially to those who are suicidal, is irresponsible at best, in my opinion, unless you have direct experience of what you say.

Do you have direct experience of what you say or is it a belief, an opinion?
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby BrahmanEternal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:57 pm

It depends how deep you go into beliefs and to what extent we allow doubt to travel, memory is considered a proof generally, but if you read any
basic book on philosophy you realize with reason that it can not be proven that even your memory is for sure it also
may be a fairy tale. This is why a great mind like Descartes said "I think therefor I m" because he could only be sure that he thinks - is here.
Isnt it funny that Tolle and mind man Descartes tell basically the same thing, just be.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby sailing » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:10 pm

If I want to hang on to this illness as part of my identity, I won't do anything but take meds and stagnate. But if I want to heal it, which I believe, is possible, in part, then I must do the work of untwisting the thought patterns. In the past I did some cognitive therapy work. I was so mentally sick at that time that I could not find my way out of the screwy thinking. I really needed help to understand what was real. Feeling of no value at that point, I did not ask for help. That was many, many years ago. Somehow I learned that I must ask for help. It was a matter of letting people see me. I had to let go of my pride.

Now, occasionally, when I'm really messed up (suicidal), I do ask for help. Its so awesome that when someone will listen to my honesty (instead of trying to save me by cheering me up, which they can't), they actually can unscramble the thought patterns, which being so stuck in, I cannot see my way out of. Only a few people can do this for me and I am so very grateful to them for lifting me out. However, I don't want to have to depend on others. I think mostly that being extremely hard on myself is the root problem. A change is definitely required.

Its all up to me. There are a combination of ways to get out, including asking for help. If I do the work, I will get free. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I want out.

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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Onceler » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:21 pm

BrahmanEternal wrote:It depends how deep you go into beliefs and to what extent we allow doubt to travel, memory is considered a proof generally, but if you read any
basic book on philosophy you realize with reason that it can not be proven that even your memory is for sure it also
may be a fairy tale. This is why a great mind like Descartes said "I think therefor I m" because he could only be sure that he thinks - is here.
Isnt it funny that Tolle and mind man Descartes tell basically the same thing, just be.


It may be a virtual fairy tale. Check out this idea. Dr. Bostrom, an Oxford philosopher, believes that it is 20% likely, based on mathematical models that we may be living in a virtual world. In his theory two things have to be constant--that humans continue to exist in the future and that computers will continue to grow in power at the same rate. He predicts that at some point in the future, it will be possible for humans to run "ancestor simulations"; and we may be in one...

From the NY Times article:


"Some computer experts have projected, based on trends in processing power, that we will have such a computer by the middle of this century, but it doesn’t matter for Dr. Bostrom’s argument whether it takes 50 years or 5 million years. If civilization survived long enough to reach that stage, and if the posthumans were to run lots of simulations for research purposes or entertainment, then the number of virtual ancestors they created would be vastly greater than the number of real ancestors.

There would be no way for any of these ancestors to know for sure whether they were virtual or real, because the sights and feelings they’d experience would be indistinguishable. But since there would be so many more virtual ancestors, any individual could figure that the odds made it nearly certain that he or she was living in a virtual world.

The math and the logic are inexorable once you assume that lots of simulations are being run. But there are a couple of alternative hypotheses, as Dr. Bostrom points out. One is that civilization never attains the technology to run simulations (perhaps because it self-destructs before reaching that stage). The other hypothesis is that posthumans decide not to run the simulations."

Here is the site for the full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/scien ... ref=slogin

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Re: End Depression Now

Postby BrahmanEternal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:42 pm

Hi Onceler, thanx for the great read man, i find it same with reincarnation which makes identification with the body we have even more illogical and kind of ridicolous if you have in mind how already ridicolous is limited defragmentation and judgment of our personallity through thousand of unreliable identifications in this lifetime, this is a problem for itself too.
But when we are in a dream it does not matter because everything is real then, much like one of those star trek episodes when Picard was trapped in a holographic reallity for 50 years but in his universe on the ship they perceived it as 3 seconds.
Life is just built that way that the lecture Tolle preaches is nothing but a logical choice of every sane mind, much like Jesus , eckhart is only calling our sanity out.
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby Onceler » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:21 am

You're welcome BrahmanEternal. Sorry to hijack the thread, but something you said reminded me of this philosopher and the tie-in with suicide is that if you can create a virtual life, it is just as easy to create a virtual afterlife....

The tie-in with depression, I suppose, is that it is depressing to think we may not have a choice in our lives, or awareness....who knows?
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Re: End Depression Now

Postby sailing » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:18 am

I gotta say Onceler and Brahman have really thrown me. I feel annoyed that I do not understand. I thought I was fairly intelligent, boy have I been proved wrong. :oops: It hurts my head trying to comprehend what is being said. But so long as you each have someone to relate to, thats a good thing I guess.

Edit: When my boyfriend talks to me on this level, I use my fingers to put up the sign of the cross, like I'm protecting myself from a vampire. In Tolles book, PON, "Why Women Are Closer To Enlightenment" starts pg. 164 and I quote: Mind energy is hard and rigid, Be-ing energy is soft and yielding and yet infinitely more powerful than mind. and I quote: As a general rule, the major obstacle for men tends to be the thinking mind, and the major obstacle for women the pain-body, although in certain individual cases the opposite may be true, and in others the two factors may be equal.

This may be the reason that I can't relate. I am woman and not at all stupid.
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