Anxiety when present

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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby enigma » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:16 pm

Sighclone wrote:
Doesn't this shatter everything? Ever method, practice, every surrender, every bit of 'awareness', every moment spent 'unrealized'? Isn't it all a sham?


The assertion that ego or surrender or awareness is false, is a sham, has to come from somewhere that is not false. Pretty much all the nondualists including Peter Dziuban insist that "Consciousness is all." Is that false, too?

Andy


That wasn't my assertion. Ego, surrender and awareness are not false. They're perfectly valid concepts.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Sighclone » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:20 pm

On page 13 of PON, ET mentions that "to regain awareness of Being and to abide in that state of "feeling-realization" is enlightenment." Regain. As in we had it before, and then we lost it. The Zen folks and strict Advaitists get there after years of sadhanas. Eckhart got there through the way of the cross -- extreme suffering (PON p. 225). Gary Weber suggests a bunch of rituals in "Happiness Beyond Thought."

Habits are something we chose to start, and then, with a life of their own, they choose us.

"Awakening is a shift in consciousness in which thinking and awareness separate...Instead of being lost in your thinking, when you are awake, you recognize yourself as the awareness behind it. Thinking then ceases to be a self-serving autonomous activity that takes possession of you and runs your life. Awareness takes over from thinking. Instead of being in charge of your life, thinking becomes the servant of awareness...Another word for it is Presence: consciousness without thought." (ANE p. 259)


The concept of a 'bad habit' seems consistent, mentioned here only as another pointer. How to break that habit? I like nature walks -- some people prefer 'inner body awareness' -- being fully and deeply conscious of the present moment also works -- just being aware that 'all these thoughts are not me...they are just thoughts!' and on and on...including the traditional paths.


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby enigma » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:50 pm

ET mentions that "to regain awareness of Being and to abide in that state of "feeling-realization" is enlightenment." Regain. As in we had it before, and then we lost it.


Words are difficult. If he were to say 'become aware', you may see Awareness in a process of becoming. If he were to say 'Realize Self', you may see something realizing something else. These would be as conceptually false as 'regain awareness', which is probly less prone to dangerous misinterpretation. 'you' never had it before and then lost it. You have never not been Awareness itself and the notion that something is lost or gained has always been just an idea. You have never been Awakened because You have never been asleep. The 'dream' is also a limited concept, and You have actually been wide awake the whole 'time', trying to figure out how to wake up. Hehe. This is certainly different from having lost something that needs to be regained, and so the distinction is important.

Sorry I can't remember who said this, but it emphasizes the apparent paradox, which really isn't a paradox at all. This is what I call a 'beautiful truth' as it leaves little room for the mind to imply anything.
"That which was never asleep, must awaken, and that which was never awake, must sleep."

The concept of a 'bad habit' seems consistent, mentioned here only as another pointer.


The notion of a habit that needs to be broken is a delusion, as has been discussed before. In the practice of trying to break a habit, this focus of attention may bring awareness regarding the habit, and it's this awareness that can potentially bring about change, not some kind of mental manipulation or reconditioning. The idea that something is engaged in that one does not want to engage in, is itself the manipulation; a self deception. Awareness of this can come about directly, thereby eliminating the need for years of practices that will not lead anywhere until the realization happens anyway.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Ananda » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:30 pm

Words are difficult. If he were to say 'become aware', you may see Awareness in a process of becoming. If he were to say 'Realize Self', you may see something realizing something else. These would be as conceptually false as 'regain awareness', which is probly less prone to dangerous misinterpretation. 'you' never had it before and then lost it. You have never not been Awareness itself and the notion that something is lost or gained has always been just an idea. You have never been Awakened because You have never been asleep. The 'dream' is also a limited concept, and You have actually been wide awake the whole 'time', trying to figure out how to wake up. Hehe. This is certainly different from having lost something that needs to be regained, and so the distinction is important.


I find the term "Self awareness" to resolve these difficulties.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Marcel Franke » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:16 am

E:
> this focus of attention may bring awareness regarding the habit

That is possible.

And a shift of attention can see That, which is not habit.
Practicing this shift migth happen.
"imediate -failure- and seeing it" can be within several practices.
Or one could say that That reveals itself within an "alert invitation" ?
Practicing is part of that which unfolds.
Nothing can obstruct that which unfolds.
Perhaps it is inexact to call it practice, but that also happens.

Seeing that you are is That,
or what Ananda calls "Self awareness".
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby enigma » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:49 am

There is attention, and there is the willingness to 'see' that to which one is attending. That's all there is. That's the simplicity of the functioning of the Awareness that You are, simply to be aware. This is, perhaps, too subtle to be a practice. Intricate stories of one who expends effort are woven around this effortless simplicity, and a practice takes place and at the core of the practice remains the attention and the willingness. As you say, 'seeing' is found within the practice, but it was given birth before there was ever a practice, and it owes no allegiance to that practice. The practice is there to fulfill the needs of the imaginary author, and so it becomes necessary to notice this. Not in order to end the practice, since it is irrelevant, but simply to notice, which is not irrelevant.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Marcel Franke » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:54 am

Thank you.
Even in this illusion, you have not smudged it.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby enigma » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:00 pm

You are most welcome, and gracious.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby HermitLoon » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:23 pm

Yes, yes, yes Enigma!!!!
You have just condensed the "essence" of all the great spiritual teachings - the essence of "what is" - into one simple, profound, deeply resonant, beautiful paragraph!! :)
Thank You

Peace

p.s. HermitLoon has printed, framed and hung this on the wall so that all who visit might "see" (if they are willing).
Peace
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby arel » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:48 pm

Is there awareness/God, without that awareness paying attention to itself? Or is it just a thought?

I'd say my mind gives impulse to pay attention to the sense of I as the awareness. I agree with that. Impulse to seek anything I would define as my mind/ego searching... So what? What am I not seeing?
What I say is only my viewpoint.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby karmarider » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:44 pm

Enigma, that is an elegant and direct pointer.

Practice helps us make great strides in meditation, spirituality, religion and the knowledge of complicated theories of existence. Does the thing to which these achievements belong exist?

And yet, practice can help us see its irrelevance.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Sighclone » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:17 pm

this focus of attention may bring awareness regarding the habit, and it's this awareness that can potentially bring about change, not some kind of mental manipulation or reconditioning.


Yes, awareness provides the solution to the problem of Busy Mind Syndrome. But pure awareness, for unconscious people, has lots of competition for our 'focus of attention.' It's easy to forget you are floating on the ocean when you are in the pool on a cruise ship. And yes, "doing something else" as an act of will to "change" our habits implies a powerful individual self to take all these actions to correct a flaw. I recognize the inherent delusion of that efforting.

But I'm still content with the concept of 'egoing' as a habit, maybe even an addiction. An addiction with a lot of subtle ground-cover.

The implied ease of a leap to simple "Self-awareness" is frustrating for veteran BMS-ers. Even if all the sadhanas from ancient times in the Dzogchen, Zen and Advaita traditions are fundamentally superfluous, as Peter Fenner says, "Without doing what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't realize that we didn't need to do it."

Thanks for your fine comments, enigma... :)

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Murreflat » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:35 pm

Thanks for your reply Sighclone. Your essay about our "worst habit" is interesting, and it amazing how the society around us in many ways helps us continue our "worst habit".

Well, Murreflat, you decide. You know what Eckhart thinks…say – did you also read ‘A New Earth?’


I did indeed also read A new earth, about a year after I read a power of now. And that book made an even greater impact on me. ANE is always present at my night table. I also apprecieated the web series with Oprah and Eckhart about the book.

Today I also realised an important point. What is our intention with meditation? It it to enhance your self image and become a more better person so that others will approve of you. I think a lot of my problems lately also may be connected to this. I've been thinking of meditation as a means to gain something, instead having the intention of giving to this world. Gaining is of the ego and is an illusion.

I read this very interesting article from Steve Pavlina: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/04/rise-of-the-lightworker/ It is about how we should make a commitment. Either fully serve ourselves, or to serve others. I know this might be beyond the topic of this thread, but I threw it in anyway :)

From now on I will really focus on giving to others. And of course being present is one of the greatest gifts you can give this world.
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Sighclone » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:51 am

Murreflat -

It's always a joy when a new member fires up a thread, and many of my favorite members respond in their usual wisdom and grace. It's so selfish of me, in a way. You even got enigma and the Sighclone to cross swords a little -- always a good thing (at least for me. :) )

Pavlina's comments are interesting. Of course, he is dualistic in setting up opposing 'workers.' I agree with him in his definitions and in the natural opposition of those types of individuals. But I think Eckhart would say to each group -- wake up first and then find out what your secondary purpose is.

Hope you are feeling better.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Anxiety when present

Postby Murreflat » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:21 pm

Sighclone wrote:
Enter Byron Katie. Highly recommended by Eckhart Tolle, she has a cognitive process of analyzing thoughts that have become beliefs. So, Murreflat, get a copy of “Loving What Is,” and check out her website, thework dot com.


Namaste, Andy


With this quote I refer to a longer post written by Andy on page 2 in this thread.


Dear Andy and forum members. Byron Katie and her "Loving what is" truly changed my life. It is like her process of enquiry enlightended me in ways, regular meditation never has. In her book she recomends that we write down our judgements about other people, and then go through them with the 4 questions. I noticed that what we think about others is what we think about ourselves. To quote Katie: "Everyone is a mirror image of yourself—your own thinking coming back at you." This really blew my mind, when I realised the deep truth about it.

Thank you Andy for recomending Byron Katie to me. The Work has been very benificial for me. I also find that Byron Katie and the teachings of Eckhart goes very well together.
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