Lonely and Single

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Sighclone » Sun May 16, 2010 9:58 pm

Welcome Sergeant Troy. Absent a catclysmic shift like Eckhart's, there are some foundational aspects of ego necessary to hold before the entire thing can be discarded. Kac O'Keeffe ("Born To Be Free") summarizes them as "I am lovable" and "I am capable." They relate to self-image, and their lack will make self-realization very difficult. It is a paradox that a healthy ego is easier to discard.

Denton Roberts wrote a fine book in the 1980's called "Able and Equal." It has to do with self-image. You would do well to read it. In addition, you might find some nondual conseling help (phone or Skype) from some of the therapists at the Nondual Wisdom and Psychotherapy Institute, here: http://wisdompsy.vpweb.com/default.html. This is not a formal endorsement, but this is a group of well-respected clinical psychotherapists who are very familiar with unity consciuosness.


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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Cherrywood38 » Mon May 17, 2010 2:32 am

Sergeant Troy wrote: I don't see how my need for intimacy and love is purely an egoic desire. I sincerely believe there is something more to be attained from bonding with someone emotionally, and to dismiss the pain and depression I feel by accepting my lonely situation would be to accept that i do not need a relationship. I just can't find it within myself to do so.


Hey man, obviously you and I are in the same boat, so the first thing to keep in mind is that we aren't alone. Also, think of how many people are in relationships with people they don't love, simply to avoid grappling with these issues, that's not a very enviable situation either.
I would strongly recommend this book that I'm reading: perfect love, imperfect relationships by john welwood. It's one profound revelation after another about our need for love. Your absolutely right, the need for love is not simply an egoic desire. The last chapter I just read Welwood was talking about the Buddha's teaching that desire causes suffering and how he could never square that with our innate need for love. The interpretation he came to is that desire for love is only problematic and suffering-inducing when it's tied up with a SPECIFIC object. Then we turn ourselves inside out trying to figure out "how do I get her to like me" "how do i get her to stay" etc... If we can separate the need for love from the craving of one particular person, and be willing to go into that vulnerable state in which we simply acknowledge our desire for connection, and recognize the human beauty in that, we can accept and love ourselves as we are and stop beating ourselves up or blaming the world for our lack of romantic love.
However... unless he's saving some incredible revelation for the end, I don't think this book has the answer to the fundamental question here, which is how to feel loved and feel lovable without any empirical evidence (ie relationship) to support those feelings! I'm still wrestling with this question. Yes we all need to feel that we can be loved just as we are, and we all need to feel that we are loved as we are. So... how do we get that feeling without a relationship.. the mind is pretty smart, not easily tricked, you can't reproduce the fear of hanging from a cliff when you're sitting in a chair, you heart holds back those Love feelings until the mind is convinced it's found love, very tricky.
I'll be sure to report back here if I found the answer!!!
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby spikyface » Mon May 17, 2010 4:32 am

Two points:

1. The Power of Now is not meant to be mentally understood and analysed, it doesn't work like that. It's rooted in an emotional awareness of something that the mind cannot grasp

Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence
This means that it is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature.
But don't seek to grasp it with your mind.
Don't try to understand it.
You can know it only when the mind is still.

When you are present, when your attention is fully and intensely in the Now, Being can be felt, but it can never be understood mentally.
To regain awareness of Being and to abide in that state of "feeling-realization" is enlightenment.


The book Sighclone recommended; Able and Equal, is very good for understanding the concept of self-love but the concept of self-love is as useless as the concept of being present. Both are just ideas, until you experience them, they mean nothing

2. If you really think romantic love is what you need above all else, then promise yourself that you will do anything to make it happen as soon as possible. Discard and overcome anything that doesn't help you achieve this goal. You will find that once you commit to something like this, it will begin happen far more rapidly than you ever expected
Find out for yourself whether romantic relationships hold the key to true fulfilment

Journal your thoughts and feelings along the way to keep a record of the journey, do not rely on your memory to be an objective record of events
Do not take anyone as an authority on what you are. Ultimately all the answers lie within
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Sighclone » Mon May 17, 2010 5:53 am

but the concept of self-love is as useless as the concept of being present. Both are just ideas, until you experience them, they mean nothing


yup...

Andy
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Cherrywood38 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:11 pm

Cherrywood38 wrote: you can't reproduce the fear of hanging from a cliff when you're sitting in a chair

correct that: actually you can, just imagine approaching women... hahaha

So I finished Welwood's book and in the end his solution is to go into the desire to be loved, the longing, and that in that feeling is the doorway to love itself. I kind of feel what he's saying but I haven't really experienced the truth of it. Will keep working on it though. I can report some progress though in not feeling down about this 24-7. Instead now, I feel pretty good most of the day, and I am spending my energy being present in the moment, and observing my mind. The issue for me is mostly confined to pangs of pain I get when I see women, etc.. and I'm able to stay very present with those, not story tell (crucial), or analyze, but feel the emotion, and it passes pretty quickly and I'm right back to being at peace. So I think I'm making real progress. As far as the question of whether we need other people or not, Welwood had an interesting take on it by saying it's a spectrum, at one end the infant is completely dependent on the mother, at the other end the truly enlightened sage is free from all emotion and desire and does not depend on others. The rest of us are in between.
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Sergeant Troy » Wed May 19, 2010 4:01 am

Cherrywood38 wrote:Hey man, obviously you and I are in the same boat, so the first thing to keep in mind is that we aren't alone. Also, think of how many people are in relationships with people they don't love, simply to avoid grappling with these issues, that's not a very enviable situation either.


Hi Cherrywod, sorry to hijack your thread, but it hit the nail on the head for me. I had some doubts when reading Tolle's book prior to finding this forum, and you articulated the crux of it very well.

I agree. I don't want the associated ego bitterness that comes with the desire for romantic love, and this is why it is such a conflict for me to be holding onto these negative feelings because I am attached to the need they push me toward, as a worthy pursuit of happiness. I do not crave any one particular person, but perhaps the ego does create ideals and generalisations regarding who is rejecting you and who isn't which complicates things more than they need to be complicated.

It is the catch 22 you talk about - love yourself, but without valuing yourself because you do not have the self esteem through never having been loved. Of course that is all egoic, but then this concept of self love is unexplainable apparently so I am just speculating on why the happy / self loving state of being seems to be unattainable to me right now. I just wish I could seperate off the frustration I need from the rest of the pain body, and use that alone to motivate myself. However, that seems to be impossible. Therefore, I cannot see what the alternative is for me than to feel the frustration and fight it.


So... how do we get that feeling without a relationship.. the mind is pretty smart, not easily tricked, you can't reproduce the fear of hanging from a cliff when you're sitting in a chair, you heart holds back those Love feelings until the mind is convinced it's found love, very tricky.
I'll be sure to report back here if I found the answer!!!


Well this is arguable, and I think you corrected yourself regarding the cliff thing elsewhere. I have been reading the Paul McKenna book "Change your life in seven days" which has a section on how you play movies and use images in your mind, as well as a section on self image. This book is worth looking at. I suppose fooling the mind also borders into Neuro linguistic programming, which I have not read much about. I have had some small success with the McKenna book, but nothing earth shattering, and I think my temporary confidence boosts may be a result of trying to seperate myself from my ego as much as McKenna's visualisation techniques.


spikyface wrote:Two points:

1. The Power of Now is not meant to be mentally understood and analysed, it doesn't work like that. It's rooted in an emotional awareness of something that the mind cannot grasp


OK, this is just as Tolle says in the book. I like to think I am questioning the bigger picture. If I questioned whether a born-again Christian could be completely fulfilled without a romantic relationship I don't think I would necessarily be trying to understand the state that person might be in when being filled with the holy spirit and talking in tongues. I am trying to look beyond the state, and more to how it all fits together.


The book Sighclone recommended; Able and Equal, is very good for understanding the concept of self-love but the concept of self-love is as useless as the concept of being present. Both are just ideas, until you experience them, they mean nothing


Thanks. The book looks interesting, but is deleted. Anyone know a good place to get it?

spikyface wrote:2. If you really think romantic love is what you need above all else, then promise yourself that you will do anything to make it happen as soon as possible. Discard and overcome anything that doesn't help you achieve this goal. You will find that once you commit to something like this, it will begin happen far more rapidly than you ever expected
Find out for yourself whether romantic relationships hold the key to true fulfilment

Journal your thoughts and feelings along the way to keep a record of the journey, do not rely on your memory to be an objective record of events


Thanks. I have not thought of a journal or why it would be useful, but you seem to say it with authority. I guess I am trying harder than ever to overcome my anxiety, but it is difficult. Anyway, I like to go into anxiety provoking social situations with the thought of the ego being a lie and a sham. I just wish there were more concise motivation mantras I could repeat to myself when in social situations to give myself the motivation, and reminder that I need of how my mind is overuling me and missing out on the bigger picture. I seem to lack a philosophy to overcome anxiety on a day to day basis. I am sure these messages are out there, but I just don't read many books.

Cherrywood38 wrote:So I finished Welwood's book and in the end his solution is to go into the desire to be loved, the longing, and that in that feeling is the doorway to love itself.


Hmmm, I am trying to imagine whether that would bring about a connection with people - of creating some kind of affinity with them without realising. Or is it possible you could look desperate. I imagine it comes back to getting into a state which cannot be explained. The more you consciously try to feel it around people the less effective it might be. I wonder how I could go into that feeling without activating my pain body, which would want to jump on board.

The issue for me is mostly confined to pangs of pain I get when I see women, etc.. and I'm able to stay very present with those, not story tell (crucial), or analyze, but feel the emotion, and it passes pretty quickly and I'm right back to being at peace.


What do you mean by story tell? When you say feel the emotion is this limited to the way Tolle explains it or do you have any other advice for doing so?
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Sighclone » Wed May 19, 2010 8:20 am

For "Able and Equal" try abebooks.com. The specific link is here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... &x=75&y=11

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby spikyface » Wed May 19, 2010 3:37 pm

perhaps the ego does create ideals and generalisations regarding who is rejecting you and who isn't which complicates things more than they need to be complicated


Dead on


this concept of self love is unexplainable


Nope, it can be explained, Able and Equal (the book sighclone/Andy recommends) does a very good job of explaining it. I bought a copy from abebooks too


I just wish I could seperate off the frustration I need from the rest of the pain body, and use that alone to motivate myself


You wish that you could split "you" from your "self" and further split your "self" into two fragments - frustration and pure pain (the painbody)

Do you see how trying to split yourself up into different parts complicates things?

Also, remember that the painbody is just an idea, it's a nice way of re-framing painful patterns and experiences but don't go thinking it's like some personal devil that you need to defeat

If you are at war with your mind, you'll be fighting forever


I have been reading the Paul McKenna book "Change your life in seven days"


Self improvement works by improving the ego, if you continue with it for several months/years eventually you'll come to a point where you begin to drop all techniques, strategies and effort
altogether and just allow yourself to be as you are

The techniques are like training wheels, when your ego is too fragile to withstand everyday shocks and pressures, they help build it up to a point where you realise that you no longer need to TRY any more, you can just be yourself and are fine with not being perfect since perfection itself is an illusion (or mind made construct, like the illusory duality of good and bad)

The final destination of self improvement is the same as the spirtual path, you'll find many individuals who begin to develop deep spiritual insights as a result of constantly striving to improve themself


I am trying to look beyond the state, and more to how it all fits together


Seriously, is there a good reason why you can't just try being present instead?
What you're doing is akin to debating whether it would be worthwhile to try a new flavour of ice cream or not
No amount of debate will ever allow you truly understand an experience until you try it


Journalling is useful since human memory is vague and prone to distortions based on current emotional state. When you're miserable you'll remember that you were miserable many times in the past and "block out" memories that contradict your current emotional state.

Keeping a journal allows you to reflect back objectively on what happened in the past and how you've progressed since then. When you have a particularly bad social experience and want to give up completely, you can refer back to all the other times when things actually went ok

Also, you can look back and spot unconscious patterns and habits that aren't so clear in your head. The patterns become much easier to spot when you have a static record of events to refer to


I am sure these messages are out there, but I just don't read many books.


Read books, look for messages, you know what to do, so go ahead and do it
You can't find what you're looking for unless you actually look for it :D


Hmmm, I am trying to imagine whether that would bring about a connection with people - of creating some kind of affinity with them without realising. -snip


You just do it before your mind has a chance to think of a reason not to
If you can't do it, then just move on to the next situation
Keep trying whenever you feel confident enough and you'll make progress over time

Keep thinking about it and you'll just hesitate yourself into a self-deprecating corner. Not a pleasant place to be


However, in many ways, your suffering is your greatest teacher, if someone were to magically take away all your suffering, they would also be taking away the potential for you to learn from it

And you'd only replace your old problems with new problems, the root cause would never be addressed, so the cycle of suffering would continue

Once you learn the root causes of your suffering, then the same situation will have no real impact on you, it'll be just a vague memory of past pain
Do not take anyone as an authority on what you are. Ultimately all the answers lie within
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Sergeant Troy » Sat May 29, 2010 4:20 pm

Thanks for the replies Spiky and Sighclone. I think it is futile to go into a debate about whether I should be present without wanting to use my frustration to motivate myself. The point is that Tolle does not really address that kind of situation in his writings. He gives general advice that you should take action without having negativity, which is a fair point. I do try to be present. I watch my ego, but at the same time I do not want to be in the state Tolle suggests of not having any negative emotions at all. I would never have sought help or come across his book without negative emotions, so these emotions can be a force for good and a motivation to steer your life in the right direction. I would not accept a state of ecstasy if it was offered to me right now because I am certain that my life will not be fulfilled without a relationship and that has to be my focus. That is not to say I am rejecting Tolle's message.

Anyway thanks for the book advice. I now have a copy of Able and Equal and will read it soon.
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby spikyface » Sat May 29, 2010 4:40 pm

I would not accept a state of ecstasy if it was offered to me right now because I am certain that my life will not be fulfilled without a relationship and that has to be my focus


Very well, then I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, may you find what you seek

Enjoy the ride my friend
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby Cherrywood38 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:24 pm

Is "Spirituality" Just a Bad Attempt at Sex?
http://www.evolver.net/user/dancing_bud ... ttempt_sex

Spirituality is an attempt to imitate the experience of sexual intercourse without actually having sex. People do it only because they're unable (or they PERCEIVE that they're unable) to have actual sex.

Due to a lack of confidence or overall sense of hopelessness with regard to the opposite gender, people through the ages have sought ways to reliably reproduce the feeling of having sex, without the need of a partner.

Sex is the only thing, other than survival itself, that we are biologically hard-wired to seek. Nature doesn't wire us to seek enlightenment. Or god. Hunter-gatherers in the jungles don't sit around thinking "if only I could achieve nirvana and be liberated from the cycles of birth and death... if only I could become enlightened."

No. They, like the rest of us, are built to seek two things: survival and replication. That's the reality of our biology.

Desire, drive, seeking, wanting, yearning, longing: these things have neurological, physical templates. If mentally you're longing for a "connection with the divine", (whatever that means), that longing is being run through a neurological template - one that was designed for, and is about, sex.

Spirituality is a perceptual alteration of sex - an intellectualization. Look at some of the language we use. Jesus refers to it as "entering the kingdom". Entering? Bam. "The two become one." Bam. And Lao-Tzu says the Dao is soft, wet (many references to water), and closer to feminine than to masculine. Well, duh! He's a dude! Of course it's feminine to him. These guys are talking about pussy, and they don't even know it.

Interestingly, female "mystics" like Theresa of Avila described it as just the opposite - fiery, intense, and penetrating. She, in particular, experienced ecstasy as a sense of being stabbed and pierced by angels. If that's not obvious, what is?

Most yogis and "spiritualists" think of sex as a kind of raw material that can be transformed into spiritual experiences. But the reverse is also possible: that spirituality is really just an intellectualization of sex. An excape. A back door. A outlet for those whose primary outlet is blocked. (or, rather, they perceive it to be blocked).

The world needs self-actualized people, and no one is going to be self-actualized while simultaneously denying that they want, and need, real, physical, sexual intercourse, with real human beings, on a regular basis.

This is so OBVIOUS to me, and I don't understand how, on a website like this one, where standard cultural beliefs and customs are assailed with such unrelenting ferocity, the one thing that matters - sex - is still surrounded by denial.

Let's do a thought experiment...

Here we go.

What are you seeking through spirituality? A state of unity. Right?

What is sex? The fusion of opposites, into unity.

The difference is that sex is dynamic, while spirituality is static. Sex is a cycle, from unity, to polarization, and back to unity again. It changes. It's dynamic. Spirituality, on the other hand, is an attempt to sit in unity forever and never budge.

The fun and fireworks of fusing back together after being polarized, that's what life is about.

Alright, pause. Do you see what I've just done? I just spent four paragraphs intellectualizing sex - trying to describe it in metaphysical terms. It's not wrong - but what you do with it from here can tell you a lot about yourself.

You might have been thinking something along the lines of the following:

"Alright, good. I was thinking there that I was actually gonna have to go out and find myself a partner - but now I see that sex is really about something metaphysical - this unity duality stuff - so I'll just incorporate that metaphysical knowledge into my life, and that'll be good enough, and I won't need a partner after all!"

And thus, almost everything I've written in this post will have escaped you.

Defense mechanisms can be deeply ingrained. The above attitude is what I'm trying to point out in this post. We can't replace sexuality. Nothing replaces it. Nothing.

It all comes down to our attitude with regard to how able we are to acquire partners and have fulfilling sex.

Those who perceive that the mating dance is hopeless to them will, invariably, turn to spirituality. Out of necessity. They have no choice.

But for those who have confidence in their ability to attract mates and have fulfilling intercourse, they have the choice.

Which are you?
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby spikyface » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Those who perceive that the mating dance is hopeless to them will, invariably, turn to spirituality. Out of necessity. They have no choice.

But for those who have confidence in their ability to attract mates and have fulfilling intercourse, they have the choice.

Which are you?


Both, spirituality and sex aren't mutually exclusive (look at the ancient Indian temples in Kajuro, statues depicting threesomes stand right next to deity carvings)

Spirituality is about finding your true nature, having sex is one of the most innate parts of human nature
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby peleke4 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:56 pm

Sex is amazing, no doubt. But you can't have sex 24/7. There is something that's infinitely more important than sex. The writer of that article seems to place sex #1 above anything else.
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby spikyface » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:36 pm

The writer of that article seems to place sex #1 above anything else


Perhaps he/she has just recently discovered amazing sex

Or a partner who is amazing in bed :lol:

Both are cause enough for celebration
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Re: Lonely and Single

Postby braveheart » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:18 am

Hi Cherrywood38 and Sergeant Troy

I'd like to racommend you this video clip. It's Krishnamurti's. Watch all the 6 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-FInFq5IRE
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