Being angry at one's self?

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Being angry at one's self?

Postby Salem » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:09 am

Leonard Jacobson speaks about anger here:

"Do not be angry towards yourself. To be angry towards your self is extremely unhelpful and unhealthy. You will have to find someone or something outside of you to substitute for yourself. You can be angry at your boss, or your mother or father, or your spouse or your children. That doesn't mean that you go up to them and involve them in the expression of anger. It has nothing to do with them. They are simply triggering anger that was already there, repressed within you. You can even be angry towards God. At least one third of the human population is angry at God, and blames God for their suffering, although it is usually at an unconscious level and rarely expressed."


But what if you are the one to blame? It was your mistake, your negligence that created the situation? I'm still mad at myself for a valuable conference that I wanted to attend but didn't because I had forgotten about it (it's a long story, but I thought I wouldn't be able to attend, and then my schedule opened up but by the time I remembered the conference it was already too late). Everyone I've spoken with about it said it was very informative, and I'm pissed that let it slip.

It was my fault, but how do I not be angry at myself? Clearly my body isn't happy because even thinking about this causes physical pain. There must be a better way.
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:21 am

Far better (imho) with anger than the quote you supplied is from Elisabeth Kubler Ross (she was far 'kinder' than me I'd say slap yourself and wake up lol)

She suggests grab a pillow and beat the crap out of it. Hurts no one, builds no resentment and gets rid of the energy that's go nowhere to go.
Yell scream curse as much as you like but beat the crap out of it until it's all gone.

If you still feel that way when you're done, you're not done.

Or, simpler, it's over, let it go.
What are you filling the space between your 'expectation' and your 'reality' with? And really.... why? will being angry with yourself give you back the time needed to change it?
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby Ziendus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:36 am

It could not have been otherwise.
If we really, really, had a choice... how would life be ?

Mistakes happens, anger happens, and it is all seen.
Thats enough.
---ooOoo---
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:52 pm

The more important issues in life have nothing to do with attending a conference nor any such external concerns. What matters more is how we deal with adversity. Your life is being adversely affected because of your anger - it's not because you missed a conference. Here is an opportunity to explore the nature of anger and how self-judgment affects our experience. It's truly a gift if you make use of it. Learning this lesson - how judgment creates anger - is likely to have far greater benefits for your life than attending a conference ever could.

WW
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby Salem » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:41 am

I'm not sure how to learn from it, but I guess that's where experience comes in.

Leonard Jacobson talks about healing past wounds. He doesn't mean fixing them, though, he says. What's the difference? Healing - fixing? Let me try to work this out (Sometimes when I write the answers bubble to the surface). A body gets hurt, let's say a broken bone. The body goes through a naturally healing process. Living cells repair the wound. It continues growing and changing and life goes on.

Fixing then, is an agent working on an object...But wouldn't the cells be the agent in the previous example? But then maybe healing is a intransitive process whereas fixing is a transitive action...?

I really am confused by it. I might just ask Leonard Jacobson myself if I can get the money together to have a personal session with him. Or read a book of his (any suggestions?).

As far as anger goes, well, I've had a lot of frustration build up in me over the years, so now I'm trying to figure out how to let it out in a healthy way, rather than hope it'll just fade away like a physical pain. Can emotional pains just fade away like that? Or do they always have to be worked out?

I often have been too unforgiving on myself. Always a perfectionist about things, and if I didn't get something right, then the ego voices say things like "Why didn't you know better in the first place? It was obvious to everyone else. You are just a dummy." I know they are thoughts. And I know the pain and shame they cause are just physical reactions. But they are still real to me. I'm closer to liberation, but I'm not there yet. Maybe when I've awakened the ego soundtrack is still there, less powerful, or the shame I feel from not getting something right, ie doing a foolishly thoughtless thing for example, is something I can better understand. But right now it's still a big player in my life.

Anyways, I don't like the idea of hitting a pillow. It feels to artificial to me, although sometimes I guess slamming something (inanimate! :-)) can feel good. Yelling in a room by myself also sometimes feels like it can just help the wound fester rather than get it all out, but I guess there is a difference between venting and bitching. Instead I went on a run to try to work some frustration and anger out. Best run I've had in months.
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby snowheight » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:34 pm

Of course there is always Tolle's simple approach to accept what is and recognize that since there is no way to change the past, it is, at least effectively (and perhaps actually), an illusion. Although thoughts to the contrary will arise, observing the absurdity of struggling with what might have been is at the core of what works. There is the issue of learning from one's mistakes, but ask this -- how much time do you have to dwell on this to extract a lesson and then move on?

All of this being said, of course, the angst and inner-turmoil might still be there after it is observed. When this happens, I think it is ET's "pain body" invention which applies.

What I've learned by interacting on this forum is that both the pain-body and the recognition of the illusory past are intimately bound up with self-inquiry.

Webwanderer wrote:Your life is being adversely affected because of your anger - it's not because you missed a conference. Here is an opportunity to explore the nature of anger and how self-judgment affects our experience. It's truly a gift if you make use of it. Learning this lesson - how judgment creates anger - is likely to have far greater benefits for your life than attending a conference ever could.

WW


This is so so helpful, as it illuminates the link between ET's message and dealing with nasty situations. It comes right on time for me as I'm involved in a petty dispute in a real estate transaction worth a few thousand dollars. Turning this annoyance into such an opportunity ... now there's the ticket!
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby enigma » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:18 pm

If you have identified the cause of suffering in yourself or others, then naturally there is the potential to not only keep it from happening again, but to compensate or be compensated for your suffering in some way that may very well alleviate it. Fear and punishment is a very effective means of prevention, and there are endless ways to respond. If you are the cause, judging, degrading and humiliating yourself, apologizing and compensating for your behavior is a very reasonable and effective approach. If someone else is identified as the cause, punishing them and demanding compensation is the obvious and most effective response. Acceptance only comes into play when what is happening is acceptable. Forgiveness only happens when everything has been done to punish, compensate and prevent. Anger, rejection and revenge are all very reasonable responses. Is the past an illusion? Not when it comes to predicting the probability of the future. If a serial killer has killed 99 times, what is the probability of it becoming an even 100? Is good and bad just an illusion? Then why seek Truth if it's not good as opposed to suffering, which is bad? This is all very obvious, isn't it?

Folks spin round and round with these ideas of acceptance, forgiveness, non-judgment and 'letting go of the past', figuring that somehow these are effective responses in a world where people are doing bad things. It isn't, and that's why none of it works. The idea that some of it actually does sorta kinda work sometimes is just wishful thinking.

This is why I seldom respond to these threads about how I can stop being angry or anxious or how can i let go or accept. Why would you want to, given the premise that the cause lies with the person? There's no way out of this dilemma while holding onto the sacred ideals of separate, volitional personhood and individual responsibility. All the evils of the world originate with this idea and will continue as long as this idea remains.
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby snowheight » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:15 am

enigma wrote:but to compensate or be compensated for your suffering in some way


... uhm ... uh ... yeah ... that's called a "job" ... :lol: ...... :lol: ......... :lol:

Seriously though enigma you are coming through quite clearly here.

enigma wrote:Folks spin round and round with these ideas of acceptance, forgiveness, non-judgment and 'letting go of the past', figuring that somehow these are effective responses in a world where people are doing bad things. It isn't, and that's why none of it works. The idea that some of it actually does sorta kinda work sometimes is just wishful thinking.


This might be subtle to some so please allow me to restate this more simply ... would I be putting words in your mouth if I was to say that your conclusion is that this is not a "world where there are no people doing bad things"? And further that the root error in assuming otherwise is mis-identification with form leading to a misunderstanding of our true nature? If so I will not disagree with you, as this is a conceptual reflection from the results of self-inquiry in the form of a belief which I currently hold and I can cite my last post for evidence that I hold it.

I'm not going to disagree with what you wrote here and although it might seem infuriating this does not mean that I'm going to agree with your reasoning in the other thread ... does this seem contradictory to you?

These ideas might be summed up with the observation that in intense presence, cause is not considered, so the whole issue of volition is moot.

enigma wrote:This is why I seldom respond to these threads about how I can stop being angry or anxious or how can i let go or accept. Why would you want to, given the premise that the cause lies with the person? There's no way out of this dilemma while holding onto the sacred ideals of separate, volitional personhood and individual responsibility. All the evils of the world originate with this idea and will continue as long as this idea remains.


I will relate this -- when a face and speech is observed from the perspective that this is not an individual speaking but instead the Universe manifesting itself through a body the experience is quite striking. (these guys are probably laughing at me right now and rightly so ... how humiliating!)

I'll try that in my upcoming meeting with the realtors who deliberately didn't request the generation of a final water bill to avoid liability for a bypassed meter while I try to strongarm at least half of the hefty resulting fine with threats of various avenues of complaint. I know from experience that if I can pull this off my ability to express at the meeting, wrath of god all, will be improved greatly ... but to be honest the practice suggested by Wanderer above is proving much more effective in this instance. True and heartfelt forgiveness of the other for a real and damaging trespass with no compensation seems quite equivalent to the dropping of the illusion of separation. Guess that makes me an escapist to some degree as I need that money, and no i won't put quotes around that :evil:. From a selfish perspective the chunk I'm taking out of the pain body by observing the source of the anger is going to be a big improvement to my life situation.
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby Quinn » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:43 pm

enigma wrote: Fear and punishment is a very effective means of prevention

Huh? No it isn't. Fear breeds more fear and punishment breeds anger and more "bad stuff". How well does the penal system in this country work? Are criminals who have been properly chastised now model citizens? Did the fear stop them in the first place or did it just make them more secretive? How much closer are we to peace after WWI (the "war to end all wars")? Sure, sometimes fear and punishment are the only option after all else fails, but it's not effective. I stop at red lights because it's a safe way to orchestrate traffic, not out of fear of getting a ticket. The one who stops out of fear of a ticket will run the light when no police are around.
enigma wrote:Folks spin round and round with these ideas of acceptance, forgiveness, non-judgment and 'letting go of the past', figuring that somehow these are effective responses in a world where people are doing bad things. It isn't, and that's why none of it works.

I don't know what experiences you've had, enigma, but I've had a sh@@-load of bad stuff happen to me and if I hadn't learned to "let it go", I'd be the shut-down zombie that I was several years ago. Holding on to "this shouldn't have happened" was a poison, a self-administered poison.

I agree with your last statement, "there's no way out of this dilemma while holding onto the sacred ideals of a separate, volitional personhood". But, unless we're suddenly struck with a lightening bolt of understanding through some grace, we can't even begin to see the fallacy of separation while under the influence of the poison. A mind that is constantly beating itself up over a past mistake, or holding onto "justifiable anger" is a very very mucky place. Not much room in there for the light of understanding to shine through.
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby enigma » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:23 pm

Quinn wrote:
enigma wrote: Fear and punishment is a very effective means of prevention

Huh? No it isn't. Fear breeds more fear and punishment breeds anger and more "bad stuff". How well does the penal system in this country work? Are criminals who have been properly chastised now model citizens? Did the fear stop them in the first place or did it just make them more secretive? How much closer are we to peace after WWI (the "war to end all wars")? Sure, sometimes fear and punishment are the only option after all else fails, but it's not effective. I stop at red lights because it's a safe way to orchestrate traffic, not out of fear of getting a ticket. The one who stops out of fear of a ticket will run the light when no police are around.


Yes, what I was trying to say is, IF individual choice is correctly identified as the cause of suffering, then fear and punishment is obviously an effective means of prevention. IF that were true, all of the things humans do to themselves and others to get them to make the right choices would work. As you say, they don't work. Sometimes a persons seems to behave correctly in response to this fear, and sometimes he seems to misbehave in response to this fear, so the question is, whose driving the boat? Is the steering wheel even connected to the rudder at all?




enigma wrote:Folks spin round and round with these ideas of acceptance, forgiveness, non-judgment and 'letting go of the past', figuring that somehow these are effective responses in a world where people are doing bad things. It isn't, and that's why none of it works.

I don't know what experiences you've had, enigma, but I've had a sh@@-load of bad stuff happen to me and if I hadn't learned to "let it go", I'd be the shut-down zombie that I was several years ago. Holding on to "this shouldn't have happened" was a poison, a self-administered poison.


Yes, you learned to let it go because you noticed that holding on doesn't bring about the results you were looking for. You didn't let go because you thought that letting go would be the best way to get people to stop doing bad things. You noticed that fear and punishment don't work. This isn't love, acceptance, forgiveness, non-judgment, letting go as spiritual qualities to which you aspire and seek to actualize in spite of the belief that people are purposely and wrongly doing bad things, and that scaring them (and yourself) straight will work. You're not holding onto that belief while posting questions on this forum about how you can stop judging yourself (being angry with yourself) and others.

I
agree with your last statement, "there's no way out of this dilemma while holding onto the sacred ideals of a separate, volitional personhood". But, unless we're suddenly struck with a lightening bolt of understanding through some grace, we can't even begin to see the fallacy of separation while under the influence of the poison. A mind that is constantly beating itself up over a past mistake, or holding onto "justifiable anger" is a very very mucky place. Not much room in there for the light of understanding to shine through.


I agree it's difficult, but understanding is what brings one out of that mucky place rather than a volitional choice to let go so that understanding can happen. Clarity is what leads to letting go. It's the clarity of noticing what doesn't work, and it may take the form of a simple noticing, or it may be an exhausted, desperate sense of utter futility. Generally, one lets go when the burden becomes too heavy to hold on to anymore. For most folks, the road between where they are and where they are going is long and rough. If I have a motivation in talking here, it would be to shorten that road in whatever way I can.
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby Quinn » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:46 pm

Ok, I understand your point. But I do fundamentally disagree with this conclusion:
enigma wrote:I agree it's difficult, but understanding is what brings one out of that mucky place rather than a volitional choice to let go so that understanding can happen.

Well, I shouldn't say disagree. I would just change the word "is" to "may be". I think the opposite is also true: volitional choice to let go can open up the door to understanding.

Oh oh oh. As I'm typing this, I'm seeing something. What you're saying is that Tolle's pointers about 'acceptance' are not a how-to manual of things that we force ourselves to do through volition and control. They're meant to get us to explore what resistance is, what it does, how effective it is, how it feels to let it go - to gain an understanding of how the mind works and how illusory and pointless resistance is. Is that what you're saying?
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Re: Being angry at one's self?

Postby enigma » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:23 am

Quinn wrote:
Oh oh oh. As I'm typing this, I'm seeing something. What you're saying is that Tolle's pointers about 'acceptance' are not a how-to manual of things that we force ourselves to do through volition and control. They're meant to get us to explore what resistance is, what it does, how effective it is, how it feels to let it go - to gain an understanding of how the mind works and how illusory and pointless resistance is. Is that what you're saying?


Yes. Acceptance is a description rather than a prescription. It comes about through clarity rather than a volitional choice to accept.
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