The Ultimate Duality

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

The Ultimate Duality

Postby Sighclone » Fri May 06, 2011 8:09 pm

The ultimate duality, for me, in this whole process of awakening is the concept and experience of self vs. Self. Jillions of words have been written about it here and elsewhere, but I believe it is where the most suffering arises, and enough cannot be said.

That duality is the core event in Eckhart’s shift. And stabilization in Self was not automatic or easy for him. I mean, what the hell happens to “little me???” Does our sense of self just vaporize? Personally, I struggled greatly also, but was confident there was some kind of solution. John Welwood’s “Toward a Psychology of Awakening.” helped me understand the difference between “sense of self” and the prison of the ego. I highly recommend it to anyone. In various places Adya also addresses this, especially in his new book “Falling Into Grace.”

Each of us has/had a different personal relationship with our “self.” Do we “like who we are?” Do other people like us? Are we successful by our standards, etc. For me, I was pretty “grounded.” That means, I was comfortable in my own skin. (Yes, some ego drives and guilt lingered after a big kensho, only to be washed pretty much clear by the penetrating balm of Source, over time.) But most of our motivation for action comes from egoic drives, and if it is exposed as a “false self” supported by a collection of memories, habits, concepts, ideas and the “I-thought,” what remains to motivate us to do anything? I have read hundreds of posts here from people stuck there.

Do not despair. First, own that your perspective on “yourself” has fundamentally changed. Accept that totally, even without knowing all the details of the “new place,” even without fully comprehending the “new me.” Own that a big big big event has happened. Take a deep breath. Do not shrink or pretend that life is the same. It isn’t.

Next, since a big change has happened, find some time for stillness. Whether it is meditation in a chair in a big city, or on a log in the forest, find time for stillness, for dwelling in the purity of the present moment. Find some time for this every day…maybe twice. At least 15 minutes. And up to two hours.

And then, you might try a variety of Adya’s prayer, early on his journey, recalled at the end of “Falling Into Grace:” His was, to the Universe, “Give me whatever is necessary for me to awaken. I don’t care what it takes. I don’t care if the rest of my life is one of ease, and I don’t care if the rest of my life is hellish. Whatever’s necessary, that’s what I want. I’m inviting it. Give me whatever I need to awaken from this separation.”

I am confident whatever that is will arrive, and quickly. You must tune your antennae, however…listen to that element of Being which has begun to awaken in you. Your intuition has a new partner.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby Ralph » Fri May 06, 2011 8:50 pm

Andy wrote:
And then, you might try a variety of Adya’s prayer, early on his journey, recalled at the end of “Falling Into Grace:” His was, to the Universe, “Give me whatever is necessary for me to awaken. I don’t care what it takes. I don’t care if the rest of my life is one of ease, and I don’t care if the rest of my life is hellish. Whatever’s necessary, that’s what I want. I’m inviting it. Give me whatever I need to awaken from this separation.”


I believe his prayer was answered and he shares it here in one of his writings:

http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?fil ... itingid=15

What stood out in this writing for me was this sentence:

"Most people want to remain separate and in control. Simply put, most people want to keep dreaming that they are special, unique, and separate, more than they want to wake up to the perfect unity of an Unknown which leaves no room for any separation from the whole."

In my opinion,, when one wants to awaken more than living a life of separation, then your prayer (like Adya's prayer) will be answered.

I also like to add this Mooji clip that I think has the same message.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AwakeningBr ... kRPkqQuPgA

"What I point to is very, very simple, but, if you want to be 'somebody', you won't get it." (Mooji)
Last edited by Ralph on Fri May 06, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Fri May 06, 2011 8:56 pm

hehe ... I'd been asking "Whatever Is" for "the strength and wisdom to live the rest of my life as best I can" after having said sorry for doing stupid stuff ... think I might change that now ... who needs strength and wisdom when there is that "infinite intelligence" that ET went on about? ... thanks Andy!
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby ashley72 » Fri May 06, 2011 10:25 pm

Suffering & being Conscious don't mix well together... They create an anxienty gap. Everytime I try to escape my pain... I look for distractions... I fidget, I twitch, I frown, I squirm... I drink, I dull my senses. I look the other way, I run the other way, get me out of here. But what suffering teaches you, time and time again. Is there is no escape is there? So you come back to that place where both suffering & Flowering consciousness exist. The NOW. This is the edge of the ledge. Only in that place- can you find the door that leads to that Ledge... and go and stand there and wait. I have found the door (Present Moment) and the ledge (suffering) but I'm not sure yet if I need to jump or will I fall.

I suspect a bit of both. :lol:

I have my own prayer... More like self-talk...."face the fear head on, stay conscious and watch what unfolds, accept it, be guided by both the suffering & conscious together, shine the light on the suffering, you can't run... It will only follow... Greet it, get to know it, be secure with it... You will become friends again"
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Sat May 07, 2011 3:51 pm

... and of course, has Hamlet said ...
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby hanss » Sat May 07, 2011 5:47 pm

snowheight wrote: ... who needs strength and wisdom when there is that "infinite intelligence" that ET went on about? ...


And thank you. I experience again and again that Little Me is "behind" and that there is something else very wise and intelligent working in the bg. Here described by you as "infinite intelligence". I have tried to accept a life situation for some time. Tried to let go, surrender, tried to changed the situation and so on. Tried everything but ET's third option - remove yourself from the situation. The "infinite intelligence" already knew that was the right option. Little Me was behind again and practically forced to take action in another direction.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby runstrails » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:49 pm

Sighclone said:
The ultimate duality, for me, in this whole process of awakening is the concept and experience of self vs. Self.


Hi Andy,
I also used to puzzle about this. Then I had this insight today that I want to share with you.

The only time there is absolutely no duality of Self vs. little self is in the 'now. As us nowbies well know, the 'now' is when the innermost dimension of being/Self can be accessed (i.e, what ET calls felt oneness with being). Thus, as you (and ET) have said so often "you are the now". That is, "you" are inseparable from what is arising in the now.

Another way to think of it is" Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form is really only true in the now. Oneness can only be 'now'. Life is only ever now!
So there can be no duality, can there? "You" are not different from what is arising now--whether that may be little me or anything else.

I hope this makes some sense! Its very difficult to write about when you are not ET :D
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:37 pm

runstrails wrote:Another way to think of it is" Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form is really only true in the now. Oneness can only be 'now'. Life is only ever now!
So there can be no duality, can there? "You" are not different from what is arising now--whether that may be little me or anything else.

The paradox of the two in recognizing the Not-Two is dissolved from within.

Live the paradox, be the paradox, and then there is no contradiction. Live the non-dual perfection that can't even be named, must less thought or understood. Then there is no paradox.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby runstrails » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:48 am

snowheight wrote:
Live the paradox, be the paradox, and then there is no contradiction. Live the non-dual perfection that can't even be named, must less thought or understood. Then there is no paradox.

Well stated. I could not agree more!
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby Sighclone » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:16 am

I think I will be the last pilgrim to give up "little me." I say this with respect to Adya, who, in one of his recent audio satsangs (January 16, 2011) spends 90 minutes talking about "Dissolution of Identity." But about halfway through, he laughs that "I'm just a little kid." So we can have a dissolved identity, but still be a "little kid." My point is that he still recalls and reflects a personality "formerly known as Steve Gray."

We live in a world of perceived egos, perceived personas, perceived people. In that self-referential world, I intuitively know what is expected of me, and sometimes, it is a reflective comment, and sometimes it is "just be yourself." And I know who that is. It is a kind "person." It arises automatically, as it does for all of us. To engage that world, I'd have to fabricate somekind of little me to function anywhere but the park bench. So I just let Andy bump along. Sometimes I witness him, sometimes my whole consciousness is lost in him...even in the present moment, even in the "now." To banish him to the woodpile, even if he lacks any gravitas, seems a waste. Just as we don't discard our mind, there is no reason to force the dissolution of "little me." Even after awakening.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby RCharles » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:47 am

My experience meshes best with snowheight's wonderful comment:
Live the paradox, be the paradox, and then there is no contradiction. Live the non-dual perfection that can't even be named, must less thought or understood. Then there is no paradox.


An enlightened person once said to me, "There is no separateness. Period." To which I reply, "bullshit!"

Unlike Steppenwolf, I am not an omnipresent being who can fire all the guns at once and explode into space. At best I have enough hands to fire two of the guns at once, and explode from the individual Chuck into inner space. When I sit down to begin meditation, I don't sit down as the whole universe. I sit down as Chuck. The physical body Chuck, the persona Chuck in his many roles, the mind Chuck, the ego Chuck, an individual.

And when I meditate, or when I am fully present and awake in action, there is no sense of Chuck. There is no time, no space, no individual, no ego, only a Great Peaceful Universe of Beingness, One with All.

How can this be? I am a little I, AND I am a Great I. It's a paradox, and when you know the validity of both states, you recognize both are true, and it's all OK.

Now since the little me loves thinking and theories, I'll give you my simple theory about how this happens. It's just training--training to think--use my brain in two different ways. Little I is left-brain logical ego thinking and comes easily because it's what we are all taught to do. Great I is just the result of years of training my mind in meditation to think with the egoless unity consciousness of the right brain. When you get good at using both, you can switch perspectives at will, AND when you get really good, you can do both at once with full awareness.

After all the agonizing and seeking we do to be released from the egoic left brain, I honestly believe this is really all we are doing--learning to think fully with the right brain, which seems to have been built for unity or god-consciousness. The insights we can have when using the right are profound, but then so are the thoughts of the left. So I say, "Cheers" and hoist a beer to both wonderful sides. May they live forever in harmony! :D

Chuck
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby runstrails » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:08 pm

Wonderful post, Chuck! Many thanks.
I remember ET (in the interview on the park bench) saying something to the effect that: Initially there is only "little-me", then for a (long) while there is both little-me and awareness and then its (mostly) awareness.

I imagine, if you want to live in this world, you actually need to be little me to get along. No big deal. The most important thing is that you 'realize' you are 'not' little me (even while you may be acting the role of little me as the situation demands).

That's why in one of ET's interview, someone asks him how he feels about all his fame and he says "I am nobody" and then happily proceeds to answer other questions about his life and experiences etc.. Same with what Andy posted about Adya---saying that he is like a little kid while discussing oneness.

Similarly here is what Ramana Maharishi says (from a link posted in another topic): http://bhagavan-ramana.org/jnani.html

A: The ordinary man lives in the brain unaware of himself in the
Heart. The jnana siddha (jnani] lives in the Heart. When he
moves about and deals with men and things, he knows that what
he sees is not separate from the one supreme reality, the Brahman
which he realized in the Heart as his own Self, the real.


As this 'realization' gets deeper and more embodied everyday, the veil of little me keeps getting more and more transparent. The more you stay as awareness, the less you stay as little me. Does little me ever go away entirely--perhaps not, but the whole concept of little me keeps getting less and less relevant and less and less heavy.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby kiki » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:20 pm

The most important thing is that you 'realize' you are 'not' little me (even while you may be acting the role of little me as the situation demands).

As this 'realization' gets deeper and more embodied everyday, the veil of little me keeps getting more and more transparent. The more you stay as awareness, the less you stay as little me. Does little me ever go away entirely--perhaps not, but the whole concept of little me keeps getting less and less relevant and less and less heavy.


Nicely said, runstrails. Identification with "little me" is what disappears, but little me will still come around. "You" are all of it, but no longer identified with one aspect of consciousness, the little me.

Consciousness is everything, but the various forms it takes is what comes and goes, so even when the form dissolves formless alert pure consciousness still remains. This is most easily "seen" with thoughts. Thoughts are nothing but consciousness itself as form, arising temporarily out of their formless essence, and then dissolving again into that essence, like waves on the ocean. It's the same with any other object of perception. Consciousness is all of it. Prior to knowing yourself as formless consciousness there is identification with a form of consciousness, the little me, and it's that identification that drops away, revealing that You are all of it.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby RCharles » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:00 pm

Yes, that's it--the important thing is to recognize that even though little me is a valid way of seeing the world, a useful tool in the world, we don't have to identify with it. You have an ego and a persona as a way of expressing your individual being and interacting with the world, but it is a tool, a mask. A little more than a tool or mask, really, because it generates many thoughts and emotions that you can watch and enjoy, but they are not YOU, and you don't have to believe them.

When you are present to Big Me, that is who you really are, and you are released from having to believe what little me tells you. You can watch and laugh at all his/her amusing antics. :D

Chuck
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby alex » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:38 pm

The ultimate duality, for me, in this whole process of awakening is the concept and experience of self vs. Self.


Hey Andy, by this do you mean the egos resistance to awakening? You are still identified with the voice to a certain extent and as awakening means the loss of identity you fear this? Boy do I know how that feels and yes, for me, it was the most intense form of suffering. Lately though I've really let it go, really felt in my heart that, you know what... it's cool universe, I'm done fighting, I'm absolutely ready to give it all up. Wooo, what a relief.. like this let go happpens all the way down from the bottom of your gut. Then you know what? When your done letting go it's like this big woosh of attention straight back up to awareness... and you're everything!

I think I will be the last pilgrim to give up "little me."


As we're in the topic of pain and suffering and it's regarding self vs Self then why is it that you feel this way? Maybe you don't want it bad enough or haven't suffered enough yet? I'm just a beginner so take whatever I say with a grain of salt as I'm sure you would anyway... But is this the crux of your problem? Maybe I'm getting it all wrong.

In my experience when you do surrender little me (whatever that is) its all just a whole lot easier and its not like you dissapear in a puff of smoke! It really just makes it all seem like a game. LIke wow, I have this body... this amazing vessel that takes me from here to here. Since letting go of identity with it it's become a whole lot lighter too, constantly tingling with energy. And I have this mind, this amazing thing thats so useful when you want to figure stuff out, and has funny antics like wandering off in thought, all kinds of silly thoughts! But I see it so much easier now, and as soon as I see that its wandered somewhere I'm automatically back here, which seems to be no-where and everywhere. It just feels like it doesnt really matter so much any more. It's all a beautiful and mysterious game, a play of life. When I just be the mystery such love bubbles up from somewhere.

I dont think there really is a little me, there is no duality. Funnily enough, surrendering control definitely doesnt impair the way you function in the world. I was a shocker at housework and always forgetting to put the bin out, but lately it all just gets done! The bin is out the day before, the house and yard are so tidy... I'm getting along so great with my partner and all without any effort! How does that happen? It's so cool that you can give up control but something just keeps living this life. Through your conditioning presence knows how to operate (or something) and does such a better job of it then when 'you' thought you were in control. I think that really this presence is what was always living your life, you just got in the way of it most of the time..
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