The Ultimate Duality

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby nutrition » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:01 pm

RCharles wrote:Yes, that's it--the important thing is to recognize that even though little me is a valid way of seeing the world, a useful tool in the world, we don't have to identify with it. You have an ego and a persona as a way of expressing your individual being and interacting with the world, but it is a tool, a mask. A little more than a tool or mask, really, because it generates many thoughts and emotions that you can watch and enjoy, but they are not YOU, and you don't have to believe them.

When you are present to Big Me, that is who you really are, and you are released from having to believe what little me tells you. You can watch and laugh at all his/her amusing antics. :D

Chuck


ET, De Mello and basically all spiritual teachers point out that what happens to us is not personal. In fact de Mello suggests you look at things as if they were happening to someone else.
I struggle with this because many of the things happening to me I (little me) seem to have brought about. If little me has a certain behavior I will experience the consequences so I cannot say I have the luxury to look at such consequences as if they were happening to someone else because really little me did cause them. Or didn't ?
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby RCharles » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:47 pm

Hi Nutrition,

Any action you take in the world has consequences. You already know that. If you push on an unlatched door, it opens. If you speak to someone, they respond. Every action or behavior in the world causes a reaction of some kind. Eckhart and others are not suggesting that stops.

What they are suggesting is that you don't have to be attached to what happens. You can gain some distance and just observe what happens without responding from the ego. For example, suppose you say good morning to someone and they get angry and say, "What's good about it?" Your ego might want to respond back in anger, or you might be intimidated, or you might want to laugh at someone who is obviously not a morning person, or you might feel compassion for the person's unhappiness, or whatever.

But the real you can watch all of that from a distance and remain at peace. The real you, the observer, sees the surly answer, sees your emotions rise up in response, and chooses how to respond or maybe not to respond at all. Can you see that the other person's response is not personal, that it does not affect the real you?

So what Eckhart is talking about is not that your actions in the world do not have consequences, but rather that the real you does not have to identify with or respond to any thoughts or emotions that come into your mind from those consequences.

Does that help?

Chuck
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby nutrition » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:23 am

Yes, it does help to some extent but still....ok, let's say that the reason why the person answers my "good morning" with a "what's so good about it?" is because I caused her some pain and suffering in the past (I spread some information about her that caused this person to lose her job)
I feel I did the right thing in spreading these info about her and yet this person has a lot of resentment towards me. How can I be at peace with a rude answer when I know my actions might have caused that reaction? How can I not take it personally?
Thank you
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby hanss » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:09 pm

Imagine that you are going to a cinema or a theathre. You sit and watch the drama that is going on at the stage. Try to watch this drama in the same way, with some distance. The human drama. Your ego reacts, feel hurt and take things personally. That's ok. Just watch it. Be the witness.
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby nutrition » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:33 pm

ok, I see. It does not matter if I contributed to the drama in the past. The important thing is what is happening now and in the now I can be the observer and the analogy of watching the movie works!
Also I see how important that is because if I get sucked up into the drama I go back into the level of consciousness that contributed to to create that drama in the first place and then I add more pain to the situation.
This is very important to me to practice. In the past 7 years I created a lot of pain for myself around the issue of my husband recurrent cheating and then leaving me for another woman.
I felt it was all my fault if he left and then I could not stop the mental movies and the hurt around the all issue. But now I am starting to see the light of day.
Thank you
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby RCharles » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:37 am

:D
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby heidi » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:31 pm

Andy and all, thanks for this thoughtful thread.
The difference between sense of self and ego prison, as Andy said, truly is the deal.
Over the past years I have had a family member who has consistently been in my business even when there was no business, creating drama around me, and causing me to continue to feel separation - in fact, distance - when I'd realized the One. I (little me, too) need to uphold my autonomy from the dramas, to stand and watch as stories get created out of thin air; even if I hadn't had any contact for a year, "I" was topic of discussion, story telling, fiction-making, and assumed knowledge of "me" and what I do was somehow known and judged. (There's a huge history of psychology behind all of this that includes lots of ego stuff like envy and jealousy). Like Ram Dass said, if you think you're enlightened, just spend a week with your family.

This ego battering continues despite numerous attempts over the years to help the person see the dishonesty of it all, and I believe it is without a doubt my biggest teacher, my biggest challenge, as I stand in awe of all of the data of the universe pouring down around me, and somehow these silly little sticky "things", kind of like velcro being thrown at me at all times of the day and night, wanting me to play a part in a dysfunctional codependent dynamic that, no matter how often I have stated I'm not a participant, the sticky stuff continues to be thrown this way. For me, maintaining my honest sense of self consciously, and seeing where ego steps in indignantly demanding separation - and paradoxically that separation is caused by awareness that it is not real - is my biggest challenge at this point in my journey.
Like Chuck and others said, taking those moments of presence are key, and falling back into awareness for short moment throughout the day help.
Thanks you guys. :D

PS - Yes, Katie's Work works, too. But it's like there's a jumping off point that, only when I have finally jumped, will all of that matter no more. Yep, we've got to die first.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby Ralph » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:01 pm

Heidi,

If you tried your best with this family member to deal with all the drama and still the drama continues then what to do ?

I say, let it be .... perhaps a good question to ask is why is it that this person still gets under your skin . Can you let the drama unfold without any attachment to it ? if not, perhaps there is something there (in you) that needs to be looked at and this teacher (your family member) is the one that is showing it to you by being a pain in the ass.
So, what is it in you that continues to allow this family member to stick. This will take courage on your part to look more deeply into yourself as to why this is so. In truth, noone can stick to you without your approval.

I hope this helps.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby heidi » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:19 pm

Thanks for the kindness, Ralph. Believe me, I know all the lingo, and have been asking myself these questions for a couple of years now, and as I said, this is the sticking point where the Self and self and non-duality and separation spiritual rubber meets the road.
All is one, and you'd better respect my personal boundaries! :twisted:
The biggest lesson here is that the drama, without any input or participation from me, gets attached to "me" - I have been used like a player in a play I am not in. I've been cast by someone else onto their stage, but I never took the job, haven't read the script, didn't do the acting, but somehow end up reading the reviews. :roll:
I know it's really nothing to do with me and everything to do with the one doing the projecting, and then that can get pretty circular, too (and I am fully aware that as I write these words I am participating in my own brand of the same). So, as I said, this is my big teacher, and until I have learned what I already know I need to learn, the crux of this topic, I will continue to receive the lesson. :lol:

Lately, with this most recent round, I have actually been considering doing the training with the Balanced View peeps, and not being a joiner, ha ha ha, this would be a leap of desperation. Funny how attached we can get to these stories. Or who knows, maybe it'll finally just pass like This Too Shall. :D
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:48 pm

heidi wrote:The biggest lesson here is that the drama, without any input or participation from me, gets attached to "me" - I have been used like a player in a play I am not in. I've been cast by someone else onto their stage, but I never took the job, haven't read the script, didn't do the acting, but somehow end up reading the reviews. :roll:


I'm guessing this is between sisters. Please forgive me if I have this wrong.

Watch her speak sometime, or project the memory of her speaking ... animated, full of emotion ... perhaps glee hidden artfully behind tearful outrage as she savors the effect of a particular outburst ... and instead of ascribing any ownership to "her" ... just know ... the bile, the puke, the filth, the unnecessary pain and wasted energy... it all just bubbled up from the sewer of the Universe ... because doesn't the One include all ... even the sewer?

What I'm suggesting is that you try putting on a hat just for a moment ... try stepping into a role, just as you do as you emerge from your recognition of the One to be "heidi" to deal with the mailman or the clerk at the dmv or some unconscious acquaintance who needs to identify with the cardboard cutout in order to communicate ...

The hat I'm going to suggest for this occasion is that of the hard-core truthers.

Give yourself license if necessary. Project an imagined version of the conversation -- you weren't there when she said this stuff apparently.

The conclusion you might see from this is that ".... hey, this shit just happens!"

The outright malicious lies of your sister? Just shit that happens. There is no sister. She doesn't own that stuff. It just arose. Where from? ... no answer.

And you? ... huh! What you? Do you see the pure ironic comedy in that she needed to stand up a cardboard cut-out to throw fake shit against to begin with? Reeaaallly funny if you truly bring yourself there heidi.

If this helps great -- it will until it doesn't. If it never does then this is just more snowheight noise :lol:.

Either way you can always take that funny hat off once you are done just the way the princesses did after the wedding.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby heidi » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:10 pm

It's a rare occasion that this heidi airs her dirty data, and this fine topic called me to bring out that basket :D and yep, snowheight, the sewer and bile is included in all that is where an awareness reveals that all that hot air Light and Love is merely a big fluffy artificially flavored whipped topping on a deep dish shit pie of dysfunction. :mrgreen: How's that for ya?
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:25 pm

heidi wrote:It's a rare occasion that this heidi airs her dirty data, and this fine topic called me to bring out that basket :D and yep, snowheight, the sewer and bile is included in all that is where an awareness reveals that all that hot air Light and Love is merely a big fluffy artificially flavored whipped topping on a deep dish shit pie of dysfunction. :mrgreen: How's that for ya?


... oh you had to see this coming ...

YUM!

.... or (imagine an upper crusty British monotone) ... "no, wait!. there is no pie. only the universe constantly manifesting and ever unfolding .... wow, what a shitty tasting pie ..."
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby heidi » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:38 pm

No, wait! There is no velcro, nor pie. Only the universe constantly manifesting and ever unfolding whipped on π...
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby snowheight » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:33 am

heidi wrote:No, wait! There is no velcro, nor pie. Only the universe constantly manifesting and ever unfolding whipped on π...


Ok, that was good ... but to bring the thread back to its original focus (and this British accent thing is just working for me today for some reason):

"to cream or not to cream ... that is the question!"
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: The Ultimate Duality

Postby RCharles » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:50 am

Heidi, thanks for injecting some reality into the discussion. I loved your Ram Dass quote. You and he are so right that family is where the rubber hits the road. We can get pretty esoteric here, and it's good to be reminded that it is a rare individual who can totally leave ego behind, especially when someone who *really* knows how to burrow under your skin delights in constantly doing just that. I really appreciate your openness.

Like you, I confess to being imperfect in practice. Awareness makes life a lot better, and we may even have enlightenment experiences, but perfect enlightenment, perfect egolessness, is a very rare grace indeed. In fact, I wish more spiritual teachers would admit that so their students would not idealize and idolize them and develop unrealistic expectations for themselves. This is wonderful stuff that we talk about here, and it WORKS, but it doesn't work perfectly except for a rare few who make it into the spiritual stratosphere.

The rest of us just do the best we can, and even though we are imperfect, we do get better, and we can still help those who are newer to the practice find their way. Thanks for all of the help you have given the rest of us over the years to find our way. :)

Chuck
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