Differences in pain-bodies

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Differences in pain-bodies

Postby Gerald » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:18 pm

I have so many questions regarding the PON that I don’t really know where to start. Firstly I agree that my objective is to be in the Now but that is difficult when you have what I believe to be a heavy burden of pain-body which is constantly intruding into my Now. I read the PON and A New Earth regularly and have yet to find anything from ET regarding differences in pain-bodies. How, for example, can you compare the pain of a person with background from a schizoid mother and drunken abusive father who is taken away from the parents and brought up in an institution with someone who is suffering through lets say frustrations due to lack of promotion or inability to find romantic love. There are huge differences in pain-bodies and thus it must be that some people have a harder time focusing on the Now than others. Any comments as to dealing with a heavy pain-body would be appreciated.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby heidi » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:07 am

Hi Gerald and welcome to the forum.
Painbodies at their essence are all the same - the thought patterns that your mind clings to that continue to bring you pain - long after the infraction (or perceived infraction has passed, and some are passed down through generations), are common to all of us with brains.
So, it really doesn't matter if you were raped, witnessed war, had to kill somebody, were neglected, abused, are entitled and feel slighted, or whatever - the painbody is the same - consistently taking hints and direction from the victim that your ego (and egos before it, such as family dynamics) created.
The "cure" no matter what your pain and painbody, is the same. Let go of identifying with the memory of the crime or violation or neglect or whatever is the ego generated victimhood (it's magnitude, despite some gross unfairness and inequities) and you will see that all painbodies are the same, too. Yes, it happened, but only in your mind (read painbody) does it persist today.
We are all human, and this part of us can be honored. We should not push it away; we can share it, and laugh about its absurdities, because, it really is pretty funny. :D

Hope this helped.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby randomguy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:22 am

Well said, Heidi.

Any comments as to dealing with a heavy pain-body would be appreciated

I recommend the Adyashanti meditation from "True Meditaion" called "Let everything be as it is." It is a most worthwhile thing to explore and experience solving nothing while just observing and allowing everything to be as it is.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby far_eastofwest » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:05 am

Pain bodies are not all the same, like cuts and grazes, the depth and severity can vary.

When children are abused, neglected etc there is no ego generated victimhood, they are victims.
Heidi, its not all skipping, flowers, hugs and cookies for some children. The scars run deep.

Unfortunately children that suffer abuse/neglect/lovelessness grow into adults that aren't finished.
You often hear "taken away my childhood'. Guess what, you can't get a childhood back but there are counselors who are trained to help people move forward from the past so to enjoy the now.
This stuff is not to be trivialized and if not worked out leads to adults that can't have good relationships/inner peace or ones that simply string themselves up from the rafters and die rather than keep on going.

As for the comment about this part of us being something to laugh at, its pretty funny???

Theres a big difference between having a laugh at the thoughts of humilation and distress from wearing your shirt inside out to a job interview to the humilation and distress of being raped at knife point or having your whole childhood's Nows being ones filled with fear, uncertainty and distress.
Some things can be 'laughed' at, some things are not laughable at all.

Eckhart is a man who oozes empathy and compassion and his books are very useful but he can't be there in person to hold anothers hand and listen to them.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby Gerald » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:36 pm

Having a traumatic childhood does create a heavy burden of pain-body and I agree with far_eastofwest there is certainly a difference in intensity of pain-bodies. The separation of the mind from the Now is helpful but those with heavy pain-bodies will have to work harder to distance themselves from the continuous negative chatter. ET is of course quite correct in saying that it is the identification with the pain-body which is causing the feeding of the pain-body.

Painbodies at their essence are all the same - the thought patterns that your mind clings to that continue to bring you pain - long after the infraction (or perceived infraction has passed, and some are passed down through generations), are common to all of us with brains.
So, it really doesn't matter if you were raped, witnessed war, had to kill somebody, were neglected, abused, are entitled and feel slighted, or whatever - the painbody is the same - consistently taking hints and direction from the victim that your ego (and egos before it, such as family dynamics) created.
The "cure" no matter what your pain and painbody, is the same. Let go of identifying with the memory of the crime or violation or neglect or whatever is the ego generated victimhood (it's magnitude, despite some gross unfairness and inequities) and you will see that all painbodies are the same, too. Yes, it happened, but only in your mind (read painbody) does it persist today.
We are all human, and this part of us can be honored. We should not push it away; we can share it, and laugh about its absurdities, because, it really is pretty funny.


I am afraid I have to disagree with some of what you write Heidi. Why do you think there are so many people in mental institutions and why the switchboard at the Samaritans is lit up like a Christmas tree 24/7? It is too easy to say that people suffering from intrusion from the mind should just stop identifying with it. It is easier said than done.

As I understand it, the essence of ET's teachings is to separate oneself from the mind. And I agree with that and try my best to accomplish it but it is harder for those with heavier pain-bodies than for those with less heavy ones. What ET is saying is that no matter what happens one should not dwell on it (identify with it) but carry on ones life as if nothing happened and deny the emotions created in the past or the Now. It would be hard to explain that to a mother who's child was hit and killed by a drunk driver.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby heidi » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:49 pm

Yes, there may be differences in depth and breadth of painbodies, but the dynamic is all the same.
And yes, far_eastofwest , even honoring and having compassion for the results of all of the hurts that people can inflict upon each other, when we can see that, in this very moment those things are only happening in the mind, we can see that they really have no power - and that my friend, is the Power of Now. :!:
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby karmarider » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:56 pm

Gerald,

I have no experience with the kind of suffering you mention. You might find pointers on this forum for exploring non-dual awareness. But for the kind of experiences you mention, it's best to look into professional resources.

Andy (sighclone) often points to non-dual psychologist-writers; those perhaps might be of help.


Gerald wrote:As I understand it, the essence of ET's teachings is to separate oneself from the mind. And I agree with that and try my best to accomplish it but it is harder for those with heavier pain-bodies than for those with less heavy ones. What ET is saying is that no matter what happens one should not dwell on it (identify with it) but carry on ones life as if nothing happened and deny the emotions created in the past or the Now. It would be hard to explain that to a mother who's child was hit and killed by a drunk driver.


ET doesn't really say this. What he says is closer to remaining in awareness. Watching, observing, staying in awareness, brings consciousness to unconscious mental and pain-body structures, and this loosens identification with them. ET also talks about acceptance, but it's not the same as "carry on ones life as if nothing happened." Acceptance is the noticing of resistance, and in noticing the resistance can be released.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby Quinn » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:58 pm

I agree with Heidi that the structure and dynamics of 'pain-body' are the same no matter how devastating (or minor) the original incident or circumstance was. The mind takes the incident/circumstance and holds onto it with thoughts like "It shouldn't have happened" or "There's a part of me that feels powerless". Or possibly even more subtle unrecognized thoughts like "There must be something about me that caused it to happen". And the mind (ego) attaches an identity to these thoughts. I'm a victim. I'm not strong. I can't trust. I'm flawed.

This is how the mind/ego works. This is what it does. Eventually, it can be seen how ludicrous this is. To take an external situation that happened and convert it to a definition of who we are. The pain is not laughable, it's this dynamic that can eventually be seen as laughable.

This goes against the grain of all we are taught to think. But it's immensely liberating to understand. As someone who went through an abusive childhood and rape at knife-point (plus a whole lot of social faux pas - including the inside-out shirt :) ) I can attest to that.

Now when it comes to releasing pain-bodies....some are going to be more difficult than others. But even that dynamic is the same. The pain must be seen, must be felt, must be accepted totally. If we can get some help with that, great.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby randomguy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:25 pm

Quinn wrote:including the inside-out shirt

Ha ha. I experienced that one just last month!


The "cure" no matter what your pain and painbody, is the same. Let go of identifying with the memory

Let go of identifying with the memory.
Let go of identifying.
Let go.

Surrender is to let it go, to set it down and just let the ground deal with it so to speak. This makes perfect sense when you see that it (the problem, the thoughts of the problem, the thoughts about the recurring memories and emotional pain) is not what you are. This is why Tolle points out again and again that you are not your thoughts. Two applicable points come to mind. One, you really are not thoughts. Two, when life-energy is pulled into thought and fed into the conceptual scenario of person with a pain-body looking to correct it then within this perception surrender does not seem like a viable or sensible option when letting go is very well the resolution. It is not a resolution to the pain, but to the suffering resulting from identifying with the thoughts of it. Of course more thoughts will come with all of the evidence including drunk drivers and the like, but it is not about that, those are distractions of more thought, of generalized answers that divide and do not fully represent reality. It is about awareness of the relationship with thought at this present moment. That's the window. Is there willingness to see that these thoughts are not you? It requires openness to a new way of thinking and perceiving.


As I understand it, the essence of ET's teachings is to separate oneself from the mind.

It is less about separating yourself from mind and more about observing what you are. See how deep the thoughts go. When letting go, not figuring anything out, letting everything be and noticing deeply this present moment, just allow the natural observence. As this becomes more familiar, as kr points out, identification "loosens". Thoughts come to have less pull on attention. The underlying peace that is already here radiates unobscured.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby rebecka » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:00 am

Gerald, I agree with you that there are huge differences in pain-bodies, some are stronger or heavier than others and there is also a great differens between a passive and an active pain-body, but I think what ET is saying about this is that when it comes to awakening a heavy pain-body is not a disadvantage, you should not see your pain as an obsticle but as something that can work for you. Nobody wants pain but a person who suffers has more motivation for change and pain is lots of negative energy that can be turned into lots of positive energy.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby far_eastofwest » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:31 am

Heidi, you have a point about the event being in the Past.
Problems occur when the events negatively affect the Now.
I don't think Eckhart himself had any major 'problems' except for boredom and not being very attractive to girls (he is attractive man though when you see him on video because his attractiveness comes from deeper, the open smile etc). Not something appreciated by college girls though, men like this generally have to wait a few years for the women to mature to appreciate the inner beauty. That being said its not for me to judge whether his life 'problems' were major or not. Its how they affected his now that mattered.

Ok, you've been raped in your own home. The event is in the past. Now however you check the doors, windows etc at night but still don't feel safe. Every bump in the night has you sitting up awake in the Not Dark room.... Irrational? No. Past events have proven that being home doesn't ensure safety. Like patting a growling dog and getting bitten, you mind remembers the event for future use. Fortunately growling dogs are fairly easy to avoid. A person hiding in your home not so. Counselling helps in working out the likelihood of a repeat event happening and if your distress is proportionate (there is a guy just on the internet news been struck by lightening 6 times) so thats something you need to judge for yourself with help from another.

If you have had an abusive or neglectful childhood, yep, in the past and even loving parents can be unavailable if suffering from illnesses or self induced work addiction. The past event is just that, only a memory. The Now though is a problem. An adult who hasn't learnt (and kids learn all about interpersonal relations etc from parents and older siblings) how to have a loving relationship, what is appropriate when interacting, how to resolve conflicts, what to do after an argument. Loads of people have these skills and seek out others who have them and have pretty good relationships. The adult who hasn't learned them is stuck with other dysfunctional adults to mate up with. The well balanced ones head for the hills when they pick up the cues of the not fully grown adult. So you end up with disfunctional people pairing up with others the same. They often know there is something wrong, often starting out with the idea of not being like their parents. Ok, they want to be like something else.... but how? How are they going to learn these skills? Dress up in a diaper and stay at a house with a couple who are well balanced and know all this stuff? That is where the market for 'self help' books is a great one to get into and make loads of money to make the writers Now very comfortable!

So the past events depth of pain isn't something you can judge by the event but how it affects the Now. Thats why people get so depressed and unhappy, not the stuff thats happened in the past, but because its taken away their comfort zone/trust or left them without the skills to be happy in the now.

Lady on the pregnant after 40 forum I was on, 20 years of marriage and never concieved. Religious couple who's beliefs didn't include IVF, fertility treatments etc. Anyway, she was raped. Terrible. Not really because her NOW ended up being pregnant, A blessing from God, their faith had held and they were totally excited to welcome the baby.

Someone else being raped and pregnant most likely would have quite a different outlook on the rape depending on how it effects the Now.

For people who have suffered during childhood and have trouble with interpersonal relationships this is a good site:
angriesout.com
has lots of stuff on their about what anger is and how to deal with it and how to express it appropriately. It could be retitled 'things you never learnt at home'.
Anger isn't really an emotion but an expression of other emotions.

It helps to be able to read before picking up one of Tolles books, it also helps to resolve some of the past stuff before picking up one of the books too.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby Gerald » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:27 pm

rebecka wrote:Gerald, I agree with you that there are huge differences in pain-bodies, some are stronger or heavier than others and there is also a great differens between a passive and an active pain-body, but I think what ET is saying about this is that when it comes to awakening a heavy pain-body is not a disadvantage, you should not see your pain as an obsticle but as something that can work for you. Nobody wants pain but a person who suffers has more motivation for change and pain is lots of negative energy that can be turned into lots of positive energy.


Thank you for your thoughts rebecka. I really am a follower of ET and his teachings and indeed his does mention in PON that in very unhappy people their pain body (PB) is active all the time. The question I raised is something which, I don't think I've read in the PON, and that is the intensity of PB's. For a PB to be active continuously it must either be very strong (originating from personal trauma or genetically transferred trauma) or the current circumstances of their life ie. being unemployed or sick so that they have too much thinking time on their hands so that thinking continuously and usually negatively is difficult to control. I suppose this is what meditating is all about - just letting the thoughts go through you and not energizing them with your consciousness. But if a person does have a problem which needs to be solved one must use the mind to solve the problem which means the mind is energized and the problem too. :roll:
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby randomguy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:52 am

I suppose this is what meditating is all about - just letting the thoughts go through you and not energizing them with your consciousness. But if a person does have a problem which needs to be solved one must use the mind to solve the problem which means the mind is energized and the problem too.

That's quite an interesting statement. Gerald, is it possible to get more specific about the person and the problem? It's just that the statements are somewhat general, and conclusions on this level or any level for that matter, tend to reveal little and continue to obscure. If I may ask, what is the problem and how is it known that it needs to be solved and solved with the mind?
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby GermanEnlightenment » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:51 pm

I struggle a lot with the painbody too.

Sometimes it feels like I was raised to give up on life.
My dad is a cold and distant man and I was afraid of him as a child. He would always yell at me for every little thing and practicly I thought that I was the reason for his bad temper. He didn´t teach my anything. Sometimes he wanted to show me how something works and if i didn´t get it right the first time he would get angry and want me to leave. He worked the whole day and in the evening he came home, watched TV and argued with my mom and yell at me. That was pretty much my whole childhood. At first I thought I was the problem and I wanted to do things to please him. But he was never pleased. Then my two younger sisters were born and everything they did was now under my responsibility. No matter what they screwed up, my father would always blame me. Even when I wasn´t at home and they did something I was the scapegoat. I really hated him at that point and when he drove to work in the morning I hoped that he never comes back again. :( I feel like I never connected to him on an emotional level. All he talks is about facts and how hard he works and how bad he gets treated of his family because they don´t appreciate it. It´s the same talk every day.

And in my teenage years I completely shut down emotionally. I argue a lot with him since that. I know it was "bad" to show my emotions because he didn´t care about them. I wasn´t allowed to be angry or be sad. My mother was completely different from him but for some reason I don´t remember her warmth, just the coldness of my father. It overshadowed everything.

I know that this is all just a story but I often think I´m damaged beyond repair. As if my self was splitted up in a sad child and a disoriented teenager. I´m 20 years now and I don´t know what to do at all.

I guess this all sounds pretty messed up but since I read PON and ANE I´m doing better. I learned how the ego works in my father and now I stand up form myself. But I think I must move out of home and then I will be free of him. My room, the kitchen, the living room, they all hold cruel memories of despair and hate.
Sometimes when I don´t see him often I´m doing good and I´m able to float through live. Everything flows naturally and I high have energy throughout the whole day. But one useless talk with him and I need a few minutes to calm down. I really have no expectations anymore with him. If he screams at me I´m not feeding his ego and then he also stops screeming. And sometimes I can see that he is proud to have me as a son. In some rare moments when he´s not angry I can see that he loves his family. He can´t show it in ANY way but I guess it´s there. There´s still good in him. (it´s like talking about Darth Vader :) )

It´s interesting because if he wasn´t my father I probably never spent time with a man like this. I don´t want a good connection with him. I don´t care anymore. If he would apologize for the things he did then maybe but he thinks that he did everything right and all others are against him. I don´t need him. I was fatherless for twenty years and I´m still alive.

I hope that after I end my study I can move out from this nuthouse and go my own way.
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Re: Differences in pain-bodies

Postby hanss » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Randy Travis - The Box (Video)

On the top shelf in the closet,
In the workshop where he spent his extra time
Was a dust wooden box that I had never noticed till that time
And we set on the table and carefully, we opened up the top
And stared into the memory
Daddy kept inside the box

There was a letter from mamma, when she went out to Reno
To help her sister out in 62
And a flower from Hawaii, when they went on vacation
It was the first time that my Daddy ever flew

And the pocket knife I gave to him on Fathers day
Years ago, I thought it had been lost
We all thought his heart was made from solid rock
But that was long before we found the box

I guess we always knew it_but "I love you" was hard for him to say
Some men show it easy and some just never seem to find the way
But that night I began to see the softer side of some I had lost
I saw the love he kept inside the first time we opened up the box

There was a picture that was taken,when he and Mom were dating
Standing by his 1944, and the faded leather Bible, he got when he was baptised
I guess no one understood him like the Lord

And the poem that he had written, about his wife and children
The tender words he spoke were quite a shock

We all thought his heart was made of solid rock
But that was long before we found the box
Yes that was long before we found the box
"In today's rush we all think too much, seek too much, want too much and forget about the joy of just Being."
(Eckhart Tolle)
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