LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Manifesting your reality or the Law of Attraction

Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:15 pm

The following are a few comments to the above listed YouTube video on Abraham and Eckhart Tolle.

I absolutely agree with you - they are both saying the same thing. I have been listening to Abraham for ages and love it. However, Tolle's description of the "pain body" has been really helpful to me. I am sure Abraham does say it in a different way. I just hadn't taken it on board. They are both great and highly accessible. It is just great to have access to them thanks to people who upload here. Thank you for your video.

I totally agree with you. I think they say the same thing, they just use different words. And you can compare any teachings, they all have a lot in common, just different ways to explain things.

The ego is pointing out the apparent conflict as a means of attachment to its identity and resisting the Now or inner being that is at the core of manifestation. The ego gets stuck on the words of Abraham vs. Tolle and not resonating with the underlying vibration. Your inner being does not see a conflict -- only your mind which needs to create conflict to feed its identification.


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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby karmarider » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:29 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
karmarider wrote:Yes, that's it. The LOA is a perspective. It is a belief.

Do you not recognize a belief of your own here being characterized as a truth for all? It seems to be your belief that LoA is only a belief....


I don't believe a spaghetti monster orbits near Pluto and controls my thoughts. That non-belief is not a belief. In the same way the non-belief in loa is not just another belief.

...Experience would suggest otherwise. Not yours of course, but for many, many others LoA, based on their own experience, is quite real. Sure it's still their belief, but beliefs can, and often do, reflect reality. Yes, I know, this is my belief. But that just demonstrates the point that we all perceive and act through a personal belief structure, even if it's a belief that we have no beliefs. That doesn't change the fact that our beliefs are an attempt to emulate reality as we believe it to be.


Yes, that's true.

But the LOA has nothing to do with awakening. It is misleading to claim otherwise.

Can you not recognize this as the same belief you state over and over...


Because it's the only thing I have to say about the loa. I'm not messing with people's beliefs.

Why is it so important that you continually stress this claim?


In the same way that it would be important to point out to someone who is attached to the belief in an external God that his belief has nothing to do awakening and his belief is not what ET says, and it's very misleading to try to suggest that it is.

Why does it matter to you if LoA could contribute to awakening or not? Many have found greater clarity/awakening through the practice of alignment as taught in LoA application. Are you going to tell them they're wrong and their experience invalid? Can anyone truly know another's experience?


Eckhart Tolle does not know what your experience is. That doesn't keep him from pointing out that what he says has nothing to do with belief.

There are no doubt many paths to awakening consciousness. Is anyone really qualified to say with certainty what brings clarity and understanding to another? Isn't it enough for each of us to find our own path to greater awareness? Do we need to tell another what's true or not true for them? It's fine to share what has been valuable in our one's own experience, and it's even worthy to caution others to such conditions that have created more obstacles for us, but it seems a step too far to aver that a particular teaching has no merit - especially one that has so obviously helped so many.


That's not what I am doing. I personally have no interest in the loa--I think it's very limiting. But I'm not messing with other people's beliefs. I'm not suggesting you're on the wrong path because of your exploration of the loa. People are free to explore.

But it's very misleading to suggest the loa or any other belief has anything to do with awakening. No belief is required, and no belief is an aid. To be clear, the rejection of belief is not required either. The seeing that belief is an attachment can be helpful.

We're not going to resolve whatever difference we have on this. And it isn't necessary to do so. I appreciate the time and sincerity you've put into responding to me.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:41 pm

Hey KM, I appreciate your input too :) I do 'get' you don't have to 'believe' or make a 'belief' of it. I get that. For me it's not different to saying you don't need to 'believe' or make a 'belief' of being awakened, or what that even means, you can just be awake.

We're curious and creative and sharing 'beings' and this just happens to be the topic in discussion.

I re-looked at Sighclone's quote in the other thread about ET on LOA and was going to post there having scared poor yutso away with my honesty and came back upon this quote of ET's.

In the bit of ET's answer - beyond ego, beyond fear there is still creation. If you are a willing co-creator with the universe you are capable of co-creating - participating - in creation's experiences. At times yes it may 'feel' as you are 'too little' for some of it, but the truth is you are 'enough' because you are one with creation.

ET said: There are two means by which manifestation comes about. One is the ego’s neediness to manifest, and another is out of the fullness of Presence, you can manifest.

Even coming from the fullness of Presence, Presence can use also the human mind. Presence can flow through the mind and can energize your thoughts, and they are no longer dysfunctional.

Whatever Presence wants to manifest through you, it can use the power of thought to manifest. It will come from a giving, there is a desire to give, not to get. Thought can be used and can be used more powerfully when the ego is no longer interfering.

When the human becomes co-creator with God, then Presence can flow into the human mind and use also human thought and create original things, and that’s a beautiful thing.

From Presence you do not create because you want whatever you create to satisfy you – because you are creating out of the satisfaction, out of Presence. The reason for creating then, is the joy of the act of creation.

In the ego you do not have that, it’s not the joy of the creation, it’s the stress of the creation. You may get moments of joy, when momentarily the ego subsides, but then it comes back in again.


In the co-creation of experiences of love unconditional and love eternal you can willingly participate in the co-creation that others have desired either egoically or awarely and in doing so share the experiences of others, albeit from your own perspective of that.

In a sense we all co-create.

Being aware of the co-creation, be that in the 'willing' sense or in the egoic desire sense or the giving birth to sense, it can be 'useful' to re-member the seeds of it. It will happen if you have no idea from whence this came, absolutely and it's no big deal - but if ever I start to 'blame' anything, anyone for the experiences I'm having I can very quickly look to a point where I either expressed the desire to co-create this - as in my story about wanting to eliminate experientially entrenched but resonantly discordant discrimination, in Snowy's thread, or my 'willingness' at some point to be a willing instrument in the experiences of others, whilst co-creating or fulfilling a desire of my own.

In some ways it's 'funny' as in light resonant when/if you track back to the desire and see the amazing path of creation to the point of realisation -- again as explained in Snowy's example of loa thread.

The thing is I have learned to recognise the 'resonance' of this willingness and ... to the degree that in all three of pregnancies, all difficult and allowing ample 'experience' of choosing love over fear - but a sensitivity to the energies of creation to the point that I 'knew' when a seed had been fertilised, the first time I didn't know 'what it was' (and yes I can imagine that might get a laugh) but the 'explosion' of creation is resonant like the big bang... okay I'm not meaning to be funny lol!!

I'm not saying make a belief of it, I guess I'm saying this 'creation' point can be noticed. And as ET says above if it is ina co-creation and to give, rather than to 'get', or even if it is to 'get' you can recognise the point of the big bang.

And in doing so, in knowing that you are co-creator of your experiences, even if it is as a willing participant in the experiences of others more than anything for your self - so I guess yes, also in that sense of giving, you can then be more aware and less egoically reactive, or fearful when elements of that experience start to unfold.

Webby you asked me ages ago did I have a 'sense' of my son's purpose etc... and I found it so hard to answer. I was a 'willing instrument' of other's experiences, including his, including doctors etc etc and also experiencing myself in a capacity I had up to that point, no idea I was capable of.

So for me, the loa is only - and for most of the time I don't notice - but there is a resonance of intention and willingness when you say Yes to the universe, or the universe says ...hey jen....wanna......

And as I've said before sometimes you go 'okay, let's play', other times you go 'really? oh god.... " and want to pee your pants.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:34 am

karmarider wrote:I personally have no interest in the loa--

That explains a lot about the misunderstanding.


I'm not messing with other people's beliefs...

...it's very misleading to suggest the loa or any other belief has anything to do with awakening. No belief is required, and no belief is an aid...

I find it difficult to reconcile these two statements. The second, a reflection of statements throughout this thread, seems to be directed at influencing the reader's beliefs - a warning of sorts, instilling a fear that LoA is, not 'can be', misleading.

The pejorative word 'messing', is interesting as well. One might then conclude that all such discussions, or at least pointers, on the subject of consciousness is 'messing' with another's beliefs. No doubt the religious fundamentalists of the world would consider what Tolle teaches as 'messing' with people's beliefs.


I think it's very limiting.

"I think", that is a most honest thing to say. Something that is fair and reasonable compared to what's come before in this discussion. It assumes nothing about another's perspective and presumes no authority over the knowledge of the universe. I'll try and follow my own pointer here.


I appreciate the time and sincerity you've put into responding to me.

And I you. It's certainly been enlightening.

aside: It's interesting to note that 'appreciation' is a key element of alignment in LoA.

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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:54 am

Thanks for re-posting this quote Jen. It appears to be Tolle's reference to LoA, just without the name.
ET said: There are two means by which manifestation comes about. One is the ego’s neediness to manifest, and another is out of the fullness of Presence, you can manifest.

Even coming from the fullness of Presence, Presence can use also the human mind. Presence can flow through the mind and can energize your thoughts, and they are no longer dysfunctional.

This appears to me to be the essence of LoA.

Is the 'Flow of Presence' not the movement of Source Energy? And, as ET clearly points out, it can manifest in two ways. One is unconsciously through egoic desire, and the other through alignment as Presence/True Nature? He even acknowledges that thoughts can be energized toward manifestation.

I don't think I would describe it much differently.

This certainly helps bridge the gap.

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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:39 am

It was (part of) ET's response to this - a preamble placing the context of the question within the 'red flag' notion/response and awareness of possible ego alert with material aspects of loa, and then the question about 'deeper level', which is, for me resonant of being of service, a willing instrument of god/creation and your higher self.

Q: What is the fundamental difference between your teaching of presence and the current popular teaching called The Law of Attraction? Behind that teaching is really a question about desire, and I have always felt very drawn to the Sufi teaching, which says that hidden deeply behind my desire is the desire of God. And yet, the proponents of The Law of Attraction are saying that you can have or do or be anything that you want, if you think and feel in a certain way. I always see a red flag when I hear that, because I think the ego could go wild with that approach.

My question is, is there a deeper level of desire which is not that of the ego?



So, I know it's a bit upside down, the notion in the video quoted above that what amazes higher beings or the knowledges that are being channelled, is the human propensity to 'ask' - and that may be on the egoic level or at the higher level, and then act surprised when things start to unfold. I think the example in the video was a desire to uncomplicate one's life, and then be devastated as one lost their job, their home, their family etc etc - all the things the 'ego' might think it 'needs', but an uncomplicated soul doesn't.

The energies that come into play do so at the higher level - "it's not personal" is another reminder in the video.
It's not about 'punishment' or 'reward' - which is where it is very different to religious and maybe even some (I'd tentatively say 'westernised/modern') interpretations of karma - karma is not personal either, it just is energy in motion.


We are all capable of going with the flow across numerous, simultaneous experiencings unfolding, and not all of them require conscious faith or (im)personal sacrifice or growth, just as we can also (if we choose) follow multiple perspectives arising across multiple topics and posts just within this forum.

Sometimes we choose to respond - in ego or in awareness, sometimes we choose just to read - to take that which resonates and leave the rest, but the 'essence' of it is that all things are possible and all experiences are existing within these simultaneous expressions of desire to give or to get, or merely to experience that which you may not have believed possible, and then it leads back again to the infinite combinations of choices and experiences and responses to experiences already collapesed within the 'all' because by the time you realise any of it, it's gone.

My notion of being also simultaneously aware of choosing love over fear, and the resonance of pfftt, or yum! or thank you, or 'oh god' are part of the dance of creation. what the video says and what many get stuck on if they are viewing this from ego is yes 'things' materialise, what the knowledges are pointing out is being aware of this allows you to understand that even when you are quaking in your boots in fear, or deeply in ego amaking enemy, obstacle, means to an end of things...

the same energy that brought this into creation - love - is still there and accessible - to choose fear or offence or whatever is all a choice, absolutely that we will be enabled to experience - but, we don't have to.

Whether this 'faith' is a belief matters not.
Because it's a belief brought through creation in an energy of love, not fear, in awareness not ego, in oneness, not separation.

In the other thread when yutso asked what would I say to grieving mothers of a human tragedy brought about by the egoic desires and fears of others, I noted right there my weighing up of perspectives, both my short lived fear/ego response and then the aaahhhh... this is the love response... what makes it tricky in human form is that even though my answer was pure love and joy and faith and fearless authentic honesty
- yutso's response to bringing that answer through creation into expression was yutso's response / choices what to do with that which they brought into creation

- it would not have been there without the asking.

So I am saying it pays very wisely to be aware of what it is you ask (for) and as it says in the video do not then be surprised by the answer when it manifests.

In this I think ET assists the understanding by showing how to be present with what is - in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm.

I am in absolute awe of the capacity of co-creation between humans and creation as I've shown in the Being Human thread. I am continually gobsmacked at the perfection of sychronicity of relating and experience, and getting and giving that makes everything collide and collapse and explode and reform and rise and fall - and I laugh heartily when it is replicated in some forms - for instance when e-harmony brag about their success in matchmaking... I laugh and laugh and laugh because that is exactly what the universe does on so many levels. while you might not fill out any forms - you do fill out your forms in terms of thoughts, responses etc that 'match' other forms and desires and thoughts etc and then the universe creates the collision.

So the thing of getting what you ask for is kinda like mental matchmaking. :lol:
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby rideforever » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:42 am

You must, to some extent, have gone beyond ego if the creation comes through the fullness that you sense inside you, and from there you can truly create. In the egoic consciousness, they are also very interested in the world of form, but the egoic consciousness does not come so much from wanting to give, but wanting to have. So the ego goes, “What can I get?” and from Presence, when you participate in the creation, it’s more “What can I give birth to?” – that’s the difference.

A spiritual teacher really points the way back to the Source. The spiritual teacher is not primarily interested in showing you what you can do to improve your life out here in the world of form. That’s why I rarely talk about how to manifest this or that, how to be a great success in life. There’s something much deeper than being a great success out there.


The source of the disagreement is as it always seems to be ... that some people are talking from within egoic unconsciousness and some talking from a deeper perspective.

ET has made the decision not to talk much about manifesting because it is not good teaching.

For those coming to the path talking of manifesting will certainly drive the ego.

And if you are further down the path, there is nothing for somebody else to teach you.

Of course as soon as the word 'manifesting' gets out all sorts of ego-people will arrive and convince themselves that they are beyond the ego. You can see this in sessions with Bashar and AH, when almost every question is about how to get worldly stuff. That's pretty clear.

And even on that video which WW posted, this guy is saying there is no difference. Well, that is just not very intelligent - but when you are wrapped in the ego you are bathing in your confusion ... and if someone comes along and encourages it - it will be a long bath.

So I would agree with ET that this is not good teaching.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:11 pm

In your quote ET doesn't say it's 'not good teaching' that's your interpretation.

What he says is
A spiritual teacher really points the way back to the Source.

The spiritual teacher is not primarily interested in showing you what you can do to improve your life out here in the world of form. That’s why I rarely talk about how to manifest this or that, how to be a great success in life.

There’s something much deeper than being a great success out there.


It's just not his focus.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby rideforever » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:56 pm

Yes, he says a spiritual teacher is not primarily interested in showing you how to improve your life in the world ... and it is for this reason that he rarely talks about that aspect.

LoA primarily talk about improving your life in the world, and so for him, they are not spiritual teachers.

But ... hey SJ ... I am sure you can find a way to wear it as a hat !
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:59 pm

The difference is that ET is talking about the process.
You are interpreting the content.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 am

rideforever wrote:Yes, he says a spiritual teacher is not primarily interested in showing you how to improve your life in the world ... and it is for this reason that he rarely talks about that aspect.

LoA primarily talk about improving your life in the world, and so for him, they are not spiritual teachers.

That is a misunderstanding of what LoA is about. It's true that many are interested in improving the conditions of their life and their overall life experience; but LoA itself is simply a teaching on how Source energy works through the human experience. Anything more than that is just individual application. It's all good as experience is what being human is about. Good or bad, it's all valuable to the evolution of consciousness.

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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby rideforever » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:33 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:The difference is that ET is talking about the process.
You are interpreting the content.


You really are wearing this as a hat aren't you.

I am talking about teaching and learning. Whether TPON and LoA as a path can work together. That is the process. My view is the same as ET's.
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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 pm

rideforever said: So I would agree with ET that this is not good teaching.


I think you're missing my point, ET didn't say "that this is not good teaching" you did.
I missed the bit where ET gave you permission to put words in his mouth for you to agree with and then espouse that he said them. He didn't say that - you did.

It's possible I missed a direct quote where ET did say that, but what he is saying in the quote you used is not "that this is not good teaching" as far as I have read it.

Neither do I feel you have grasped loa - I don't actually see it as a 'spiritual' thing. For me it merely explains energy in motion - whether it improves your life.. well, maybe, maybe not, it's not personal so whether it improves your life or not is not the point.

That would be kind of like saying those who teach about the law of gravity do so to improve your life and then in your opinion that means that it's not good teaching... does it? Or does it just explain how some things work?

There is another topic (in this section, called 'And other laws") that discusses many ideas of natural laws of energy in action as discussed by Dan Millman - again it's just a discussion about how things happen, these things are no different to me to explaining why and how an apple falls downward from a tree that we call 'the law of gravity' and how that applies to life on Earth, or the 'law of relativity'.

I'm equally as curious about human rights' discussions, environmental eco-system workings, movements towards restorative justice programs, new findings in neurology and plant and animal intelligence and emotional intelligence research, similarities and differences in ancient cultures, etc etc etc

It's not a hat, it's merely curiosity about life on Earth.

I'm a spiritual being having a physical experience on this amazing planet, in this amazing time, in this incredible body. I'm curious about those aspects of this life and I don't judge any of it 'good' or 'bad' or 'not good'. It just is.



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Re: LoA Explained Through Various Channels

Postby rideforever » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:26 pm

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