A discussion community revolving around Eckhart Tolle but not limited to him
beginnersmind wrote:EL, I don't have time to read your thread right now, but when I get a chance. I think it is easy just to say that I have a misunderstanding with LOA or a superficial knowledge of it, but I assure you, I have already been through the LOA stage. I've read the Charles Haneel's; The Robert Colliers, The James Allen (which in my opinion his book "From Poverty to Power" is his best since it focuses on spiritually, with the meaning talking about inner spiritual poverty to inner spiritual power); Abraham-Hicks, The Secret, Napoleon Hill, Michael Beckwith, etc., etc. And while Michael Beckwith has started to modify his approach to LOA (possibly due to the criticisms of it) there is one author that I am aware of who while a teacher of LOA is also a critic of the many teachings of it. That is Rick Jarvis and he speaks about some of the same criticisms I began to have of it, and that is the fact that we are interconnected, and the egocentricity that within LOA teachings.
So yes, I think it is much easier just to say I don't understand the premises of LOA rather than looking at the holes within those premises.
I've never said that LOA is completely wrong. I have said that we can greatly influence our lives by the way we think. What I also said is, when we take this truth and then extrapolate it to become some special genie in the bottle for our manifestation purposes and I'll add, take quasi quantum physics as an example to prove that this is true, then people are in fantasy land in which people's lives, societies, social injustices, and disasters even are explained away through oversimplified LOA "thinking".
EL, without first reading your post, I'll assume you're talking about your own health. Can we influence our health through our thinking and feelings? Of course! I've done it myself. Stress which comes from our thoughts can produce an over abundance of cortisol and other chemicals, which can break down our body's natural defenses. It also keeps the body's sympathetic nervous system in the fight or flight mode. Laughter, meditation, Qigong, etc. can do the opposite by releasing endorphins and activating the parasympathetic nervous system which naturally puts our body in rest mode.
My own step mom has terrible health with just about everything wrong with her and she has developed Parkinson's. I firmly believe that she has caused much of her bad health due to her thinking which results in behavior and habits (cause and effect). And the one thing she loves to do is to tell everyone within earshot how bad her health is. She thrives on it, because as Eckhart has said, she finds her identity in it. She get attention from it.
But again, there is a line between greatly influencing one's environment and a personal genie in a bottle.
One of the tenets taught in LOA is that it is a law that never stops working. It is always working and what you think about, you bring about whether good or bad. On the micro level, this is to the individual. On the macro level this law works within individuals. What the collective thinks about it brings about. Examples of a collective people praying or thinking of a certain thing to happen are often used as examples of this in LOA teachings.
So, the test of this is this: If LOA laws never stop working and what you think about, you bring about on both a micro and macro level, then:
1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.
2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?
3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it their thinking that they brought about this?
4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to their thinking?
Again, while thinking can greatly influence one's life and environment, simply writing off events or situations as a result of LOA is a rather superficial, and over simplified POV, and it is rather disrespectful and doesn't achieve any change.
beginnersmind wrote:1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.
But again you have extrapolated cause and effect to the point where people are attracting natural disasters to them and oversimplifying cause and effect to merely "vibrational attraction", and thus removing other causes through this overgeneralized implication.
Has it occurred to you that the result of the poisoning of the Amazon was simply due to greed and cannibalistic capitalism where a company took advantage of another country with promises of "new infrastructure" and exploited the countries natural resources? And with little or no regard to the indigenous people of the area because they know those people don't really have a voice?
I practice Qigong, so I am aware of energy healing, and have read on Pranic Energy Healing, but I'm not going to extrapolate this into something it is not. I've read Bruce Lipton's book years ago, about the same time I read a lot of LOA books. And I've read the NDE's books like "Dying to Be Me" and "Proof of Heaven". My advice, don't just believe everything you read simply because you want it to be true.
beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns
Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard
Webwanderer wrote:beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns
First lets be clear on what a straw man argument is.
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.
Then there is the red herring.
A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.
The issue is LoA and how it could attract problems to groups and individuals. I gave relevant and common examples of how such attraction could occur in a group of people that you pointed to as not seeing how LoA could be a factor. What you are doing is avoidance of possible answers to your own questions rather than fairly considering the possibilities. Thus you hide behind claims of my answer being a straw man and a red herring.
Neither of us know exactly what another is thinking or believing, or what concerns they hold and with what emotion, let alone all the way to the Amazon. But we do know that thought and emotion hold energy and vibration. Were people in the are warned this could happen by those that saw it elsewhere? It's common for environmental groups to actively spread such concerns. Did that concern grow in their minds? While we don't know for certain, it remains a possibility.
I also think it is reasonable to assume that Exxon or whoever didn't just show up one day and poison the water. There was a long process that attracted the attention and involved many of the local population and authorities. It's hard to deny the real possibility of some scenario like this playing out. And simply to dismiss them with claims of false arguments that don't apply is avoidance on your own part. It is a clear fact that you don't know specifically what their fears and concerns were, and their fears and concerns is a strong driver of LoA.
Webwanderer wrote:beginnersmind wrote:Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard
Is this the only track record of the US or of Oil companies? The United States or an oil company is not an entity that makes decisions. People do that. To isolate only the negative examples ignores all the good people from the US and even oil companies have done in the world. Where is the balance? Sure, there are significant issues to consider but that's another conversation. This is about LoA.
And this pretty much proves my point right here. The parts in bold.
Thanks for the convo Eric. I respect your decision to step out and with all of this said, I find you highly intelligent and I do think you bring great insight.
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