Re: It Seems LoA and PoN Are Complete Opposites
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:57 pm
BTW, pointing out a central tenet to LOA and criticizing it, is not a straw man argument
A discussion community revolving around Eckhart Tolle but not limited to him
I haven't read any of those authors you mention, other than Abraham Hicks and I've used my own experience.beginnersmind wrote:EL, I don't have time to read your thread right now, but when I get a chance. I think it is easy just to say that I have a misunderstanding with LOA or a superficial knowledge of it, but I assure you, I have already been through the LOA stage. I've read the Charles Haneel's; The Robert Colliers, The James Allen (which in my opinion his book "From Poverty to Power" is his best since it focuses on spiritually, with the meaning talking about inner spiritual poverty to inner spiritual power); Abraham-Hicks, The Secret, Napoleon Hill, Michael Beckwith, etc., etc. And while Michael Beckwith has started to modify his approach to LOA (possibly due to the criticisms of it) there is one author that I am aware of who while a teacher of LOA is also a critic of the many teachings of it. That is Rick Jarvis and he speaks about some of the same criticisms I began to have of it, and that is the fact that we are interconnected, and the egocentricity that within LOA teachings.
Not to say that some of those (perhaps the Secret) give a false impression of the LoA, but perhaps also playing into this, is your interpretation of those teachings where you find the holes. Have you watched Bashar's videos?So yes, I think it is much easier just to say I don't understand the premises of LOA rather than looking at the holes within those premises.
As I said in my last post, it's not thinking alone....it's beliefs themselves which are the focal point of manifestation.I've never said that LOA is completely wrong. I have said that we can greatly influence our lives by the way we think. What I also said is, when we take this truth and then extrapolate it to become some special genie in the bottle for our manifestation purposes and I'll add, take quasi quantum physics as an example to prove that this is true, then people are in fantasy land in which people's lives, societies, social injustices, and disasters even are explained away through oversimplified LOA "thinking".
Actually, I'm talking about our physical health from an emotional level, where our beliefs are formed, which is where the cellular structure of our DNA are altered by what we BELIEVE, not just by what we think, which has no affect. Beliefs are the focal points of creation. That's where the key lies. Stress does not come from our thoughts alone. Stress comes from beliefs we hold deep inside of us. Beliefs are emotionally charged thoughts. Thoughts themselves have no bearing on anything in our existence, unless we have the emotional charge behind it and most of us have beliefs stemming from childhood that we are unconscious too, believe it or not. How we process our emotions are how our beliefs are formed and in turn, where are own vibrational state will stem from. But, the emotional charge stems from so many factors including our conditioning that we've taken from childhood. That's where we manifest from......beliefs. It's all vibration. And all things in existence that match our vibration will be drawn to us, whether we are conscious of it or not simply by the beliefs we hold about ourselves deep inside among so many other factors. We enter into this life with a core vibration that is unique for each of us. That vibration is constantly in flux, by the beliefs we take on here in our physical lives.EL, without first reading your post, I'll assume you're talking about your own health. Can we influence our health through our thinking and feelings? Of course! I've done it myself. Stress which comes from our thoughts can produce an over abundance of cortisol and other chemicals, which can break down our body's natural defenses. It also keeps the body's sympathetic nervous system in the fight or flight mode. Laughter, meditation, Qigong, etc. can do the opposite by releasing endorphins and activating the parasympathetic nervous system which naturally puts our body in rest mode.
My own step mom has terrible health with just about everything wrong with her and she has developed Parkinson's. I firmly believe that she has caused much of her bad health due to her thinking which results in behavior and habits (cause and effect). And the one thing she loves to do is to tell everyone within earshot how bad her health is. She thrives on it, because as Eckhart has said, she finds her identity in it. She get attention from it.
But again, there is a line between greatly influencing one's environment and a personal genie in a bottle.
Tenets based on who? Based on what? Based on YOUR interpretation? This is once again an over simplification of what the LoA actually is. It's not about what you simply "think", again, and has nothing to do with thoughts alone, but about 'beliefs" once again which is an emotional investment in a thought. It's our emotions themselves which are the guiding points of our manifestation and vibration here in the human experience. And yes, it IS always in effect. You are ALWAYS manifesting every second, whether you are conscious of it or not. Manifestation is always happening.One of the tenets taught in LOA is that it is a law that never stops working. It is always working and what you think about, you bring about whether good or bad. On the micro level, this is to the individual. On the macro level this law works within individuals. What the collective thinks about it brings about. Examples of a collective people praying or thinking of a certain thing to happen are often used as examples of this in LOA teachings.
This whole premise is a very limited, line of reasoning. Once again, it's not just thoughts/thinking, it's beliefs. And the LoA ONLY works within a given frame work for the life that you choose to explore as an incarnation. Again you are not attracting material wealth to you, you are simply matching the vibration that you are putting out there by what your own emotional state is based on your beliefs, and if you are stuck in a poverty filled country, in a concentration camp, you're not going to attract a hot model or a corvette. However, you WILL resonate and attract to those vibrations that you are holding within yourself, which match your own within the framework of life you are living. I don't know where you got the idea that LoA overrides any other universal law. The LoA is simply vibration and how vibration works within the frame work of our interconnected energetic experience. It's not "If I think this, it will happen". This is your own interpretation, which is simply mis-perceived.So, the test of this is this: If LOA laws never stop working and what you think about, you bring about on both a micro and macro level, then:
1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.
2. How about the people in Flint Michigan right now? Has this poisoning of the water resulted in LOA thinking?
3. What about civilians killed in Iraq, was it their thinking that they brought about this?
4. Or the poverty in Africa? Is this simply due to their thinking?
Again, it's not thinking.....it's beliefs. I'm only rehashing this because it's a huge mis understanding.Again, while thinking can greatly influence one's life and environment, simply writing off events or situations as a result of LOA is a rather superficial, and over simplified POV, and it is rather disrespectful and doesn't achieve any change.
Of course you or I are not going to be able to answer this with certainty. That said, what do you know of the fears and concerns of the people of the Amazon river? Could they have had concerns of foreigners coming in and disrupting their homelands? Could this fear have spread among them? Could they already have been fearful of the choices their leaders make in lining their own pockets instead of looking out for their peoples interest? Could these fears and concerns focus energy toward some manifestation of those concerns? Can you answer these questions with certainty?beginnersmind wrote:1. Have the people of the Amazon river brought about poisonings in their river to where adults and children are getting sick due to LOA or is it because Exxon Mobil came into the area, created a poor infrastructure to exploit the oil, thus releasing millions of gallons of oil into the river, thus poisoning it.
Hmmm....not entirely.There are just SO many other factors which I mentioned in the other post as well and will mention below. And no, I'm not simplifying it. I'm explaining what LoA actually IS compared to what you believe it to be.But again you have extrapolated cause and effect to the point where people are attracting natural disasters to them and oversimplifying cause and effect to merely "vibrational attraction", and thus removing other causes through this overgeneralized implication.
Has it possibly occurred to YOU that the people in the Amazon region, have their own consensus belief systems which vibrate outwards which have also contributed to the outside forces that came upon them? I'm just asking if you've even considered this. Not saying it is or isn't, because the truth of the matter is, that I absolutely do not know myself, but you and I cannot have this discussion, without a more inclusive perspective at play in understanding how energy flows, as you are ultimately disregarding how incredibly powerful belief structures truly are in their own manifestation. Are you aware of how powerful energetic grid lines are in certain geographical regions? Why do you think that is? Do you think this just happens accidentally without belief structures playing a role in this that are passed down? How about weather patterns? Do you think these too have no energetic constructs behind it, also not based in belief structures? Compared to some of the narrow minded, limited global warming debates that gets thrown around, when people are just too blind to understand how beliefs structures themselves are playing an even greater role in the weather patterns, rather than global warming itself as a physical construct? There is ultimately nothing in our existence that does not stem from belief structures. But, these are belief structures that are passed down from generation to generation and incorporate MASS areas geographically and demographically and therefore incorporate what we call consensus realities. I learned a lot about this from reading William Buhlman's work. It's so fascinating beyond words.Has it occurred to you that the result of the poisoning of the Amazon was simply due to greed and cannibalistic capitalism where a company took advantage of another country with promises of "new infrastructure" and exploited the countries natural resources? And with little or no regard to the indigenous people of the area because they know those people don't really have a voice?
And this pretty much proves my point right here. The parts in bold.I practice Qigong, so I am aware of energy healing, and have read on Pranic Energy Healing, but I'm not going to extrapolate this into something it is not. I've read Bruce Lipton's book years ago, about the same time I read a lot of LOA books. And I've read the NDE's books like "Dying to Be Me" and "Proof of Heaven". My advice, don't just believe everything you read simply because you want it to be true.
First lets be clear on what a straw man argument is.beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns
Is this the only track record of the US or of Oil companies? The United States or an oil company is not an entity that makes decisions. People do that. To isolate only the negative examples ignores all the good people from the US and even oil companies have done in the world. Where is the balance? Sure, there are significant issues to consider but that's another conversation. This is about LoA.Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard
I don't hide behind claims. I stand by my statement. You veered off into speculative "well maybe" scenarios instead of directly answering 5 simple questions. And again you're doing it.Webwanderer wrote:First lets be clear on what a straw man argument is.beginnersmind wrote:See, it is a bit of a red herring and straw man argument asking what do I know of the people of the Amazon's fears and concerns
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.
Then there is the red herring.
A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.
The issue is LoA and how it could attract problems to groups and individuals. I gave relevant and common examples of how such attraction could occur in a group of people that you pointed to as not seeing how LoA could be a factor. What you are doing is avoidance of possible answers to your own questions rather than fairly considering the possibilities. Thus you hide behind claims of my answer being a straw man and a red herring.
Neither of us know exactly what another is thinking or believing, or what concerns they hold and with what emotion, let alone all the way to the Amazon. But we do know that thought and emotion hold energy and vibration. Were people in the are warned this could happen by those that saw it elsewhere? It's common for environmental groups to actively spread such concerns. Did that concern grow in their minds? While we don't know for certain, it remains a possibility.
I also think it is reasonable to assume that Exxon or whoever didn't just show up one day and poison the water. There was a long process that attracted the attention and involved many of the local population and authorities. It's hard to deny the real possibility of some scenario like this playing out. And simply to dismiss them with claims of false arguments that don't apply is avoidance on your own part. It is a clear fact that you don't know specifically what their fears and concerns were, and their fears and concerns is a strong driver of LoA.
Eric: Wow. Yes, this is about LOA. THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT! No one said that it was the only track record, but that both have a track record. Instead of simply answering the questions, you veer off into a plea for balance, "coming to the defense" of the United States and the Oil Companies. Yeah, that is for another conversation, not this one.Webwanderer wrote:beginnersmind wrote:Is this the only track record of the US or of Oil companies? The United States or an oil company is not an entity that makes decisions. People do that. To isolate only the negative examples ignores all the good people from the US and even oil companies have done in the world. Where is the balance? Sure, there are significant issues to consider but that's another conversation. This is about LoA.Never mind the fact that the United States has a track record for exploiting poorer countries for their natural resources. Never mind Exxon's complete disregard for the area since it is not in their own backyard
Thank you Enlightened. As I mentioned before, I do think the mind is powerful and greatly influences our lives, health, environment, etc. At the same time, I think discernment is needed on some of these claims and the danger lies in extrapolating truths into magic.Enlightened2B wrote:
And this pretty much proves my point right here. The parts in bold.
Thanks for the convo Eric. I respect your decision to step out and with all of this said, I find you highly intelligent and I do think you bring great insight.