Persistance of Me/I

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:15 pm

Does the sense of 'me' or 'I' persist beyond the death of the physical form? Does the argument that 'you' don't exist have any validity? Is it possible, or even likely, that the concept of no-self is simply a reference to a misunderstood identification with a construct of conditioned thoughts and beliefs about the nature of self expressed in form, and not an indictment on the very existence of an individualized self?

The following is just one of a seemingly endless number of examples of NDE'rs attesting to the continuance of a sense of 'me' or 'I' beyond this physical life.

As soon as I started to breathe water, my body began to slow down quickly and I realized that I wasn't going to escape. My last thought right before my spirit left the body was "Huh! Dying's not so bad after all!" There was just a moment of panic, then acceptance, and my spirit was out of the body, seeming to leave through the top of my head.

I had a brief glimpse from above, of my body suspended in the river, longish hair floating in the water. The next thing I knew, I was in outer space. There were no stars, just me and this glowing entity (my life). I call this entity the "space slug" because it had kind of an elongated aspect. It was every experience I have ever had. We experience reality in three dimensions tied together with time, which made it a four dimensional object. I remember thinking, wow look at that...four dimensions!

It should be mentioned that I was still me. I never once stopped being me, nor did I lose consciousness. All I really lost was my body. My body died; I went on, and I was still me.

So I'm out in this void, looking down at my life. I noticed that I could take in everything I've ever experienced in my entire life-- every tree, every wave, every chalkboard--all at once, and it didn't seem like all that much. It was what it was. I had the insight that we are so much more than we think we are. In a human body, our capacity for information is extremely limited compared to what we can handle in spirit form. I also noticed that some memories, or life experiences I should say, were brighter, or stood out from the rest. This inspired another insight: We live our lives for just a few special moments and the rest is really filler.


For the complete account go here and enjoy:

http://iands.org/experiences/nde-accounts/658-still-me.html

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby runstrails » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:41 pm

Nice one, WW. I've been reading Jeffery Long's book Evidence of the afterlife: Science of Near Death Experiences. Its an excellent, convincing book (so far) written by a radiation oncologist who knows really understands the research paradigm. I'm now totally convinced by NDE's and that consciousness exists beyond the body. So clearly 'we' aren't the body---and on the other end of the continuum 'we' are source (since there is only one eventually). So the "I" identity is referring to consciousness as a spiritual being or facet of source, a sourcelet, perhaps? What do you think?

Also
This inspired another insight: We live our lives for just a few special moments and the rest is really filler.


I wonder if these special moments are ones we are really 'present' for.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:12 pm

runstrails wrote:I've been reading Jeffery Long's book Evidence of the afterlife: Science of Near Death Experiences.

Excellent source. Dr Long is/was a board member of IANDS where this account came from. There are some good YouTubes by him out there as well.


So the "I" identity is referring to consciousness as a spiritual being or facet of source, a sourcelet, perhaps? What do you think?

I like to think of it/each of us, as an unique perspective of Source - Source in Essence and Origin, but unique in individualized point of view, each inherent with all the essential qualities of the One, but able to think individually and creatively from our own unique perspectives. This seems a wonderfully creative advantage for the One and the individualizations alike.
Also
This inspired another insight: We live our lives for just a few special moments and the rest is really filler.


I wonder if these special moments are ones we are really 'present' for.

Maybe, or maybe it's the ones in which we made significant evolutionary progress in, and/or added something uniquely valuable to the Whole. Or maybe it's that the experiencer was young at the time and didn't yet have a lot of life experience. It seems from here that special moments, ones that matter to a spiritual/consciousness perspective, would be those in which we act in such a way as to make a difference in life experience, both within ourselves and to those with whom we interact.

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Ralph » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:16 pm

Namaste'
As defined by Mahatma Gandhi: In India when people meet and part they often say, Namaste' which means: "I honor the place within you where the entire Universe resides; I honor the place within you of love, of light, of truth, of peace; I honor the place within you, where, when you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcgNJ7cgDVs

hmm ... can it be that in truth, there really is only one of us ? :roll:
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:22 pm

Thanks for your input Ralph, but I don't understand your point, nor what your post adds to the topic. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? For the sake of clarity, could you expand a bit?

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:29 am

Webwanderer wrote:I like to think of it/each of us, as an unique perspective of Source - Source in Essence and Origin, but unique in individualized point of view, each inherent with all the essential qualities of the One, but able to think individually and creatively from our own unique perspectives. This seems a wonderfully creative advantage for the One and the individualizations alike.


My take on this is that it sounds very nice, but when I was stuck in ego such words were of no help whatsoever.

Does the argument that 'you' don't exist have any validity? Is it possible, or even likely, that the concept of no-self is simply a reference to a misunderstood identification with a construct of conditioned thoughts and beliefs about the nature of self expressed in form, and not an indictment on the very existence of an individualized self?


Yes, the notion that 'you do not exist' helped me see that I was not a thought construction. Now I have no idea what/who I am and this is no problem at all.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby runstrails » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:01 am

WW, I'd really like to explore this further with you (and anyone else who wants to join in)
WW wrote:
I like to think of it/each of us, as an unique perspective of Source - Source in Essence and Origin, but unique in individualized point of view, each inherent with all the essential qualities of the One, but able to think individually and creatively from our own unique perspectives. This seems a wonderfully creative advantage for the One and the individualizations alike.


Clearly consciousness transcends the body--so when you say 'us' or 'we', are you referring to our consciousness (that is beyond the body). What is this individuated consciousness? Is this a 'soul'? And is this 'soul' (or individuated facet of the One) what creates using the body (in human form) and, no doubt, using other forms in other dimensions?

Also, what are 'we' evolving towards eventually? Unity with Source? In human form, some kind of unity with source could be achieved by meditation or being 'present'. But perhaps we might eventually evolve to greater levels of unity (far more than can be achieved in human form), like the NDEr's talk about? What's your take on what we are evolving to?

Thanks! rt
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:08 am

tod wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
I like to think of it/each of us, as an unique perspective of Source - Source in Essence and Origin, but unique in individualized point of view, each inherent with all the essential qualities of the One, but able to think individually and creatively from our own unique perspectives. This seems a wonderfully creative advantage for the One and the individualizations alike.

My take on this is that it sounds very nice, but when I was stuck in ego such words were of no help whatsoever.

That's understandable, but everything posted in this forum is not exclusively for those yet stuck in ego. Some have seen ego for what it is and are interested in a greater perspective on life. Take from this thread, or any thread, what you may and make the most of it. If it doesn't feel right to you, set it aside and follow your instincts.

Yes, the notion that 'you do not exist' helped me see that I was not a thought construction. Now I have no idea what/who I am and this is no problem at all.

Excellent. If you feel this approach serves you best, continue to focus on it. If a time comes however, that you sense there is yet more to perceive, then consider whatever alternatives may attract you. Follow your inner guidance and you will find your way. You are the last word on the direction of your life.

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:51 am

The shared consciousness energy IS life/creation and adjusts itself to various frequencies depending on what is required and what it has to work with/through in order to continue motion and creation.

The lower/slower the frequency (individualisation) the denser the mass and the more 'violent' interactions have to be to penetrate/dance with that energy.

In simple terms a rock is more 'dense' energy than light or sound energy, but it is still within the 'all', still part of creation ever unfolding and growing. In order for any motion, growth, change, creation or reformation 'something' has to 'move' or penetrate and combine with the rock. Another perfect example is sperm meeting an egg and fertilising it and 'life' growing.

A body, a thought, a smell, a sensation every single 'xyxyxyxyx' are also all part of the 'all' of creation eternally changing and reforming - but they are still part of the experience of the all - no thing is 'isolated' or independent of all else.

In our consciousness we've come to know this permeating / creating energy as 'love' and attributed it to 'god'.

As energy rises in vibration it becomes 'purer' in 'love' - less density in 'form/separation' and aware of this.

So, in essence
what are 'we' evolving towards eventually?

Awareness - of the continuity and the okayness of creation in motion.

Of course my take is just my take. But 'evidence' of this is all around us and in the formations provided by emerging knowledges accepting of love / energy in continual motion and growing in awareness that our 'separations - in time, space, matter and in dimensions are not really 'separations', just different points from which we are 'viewing'.

Some of these things include the wisdom of the ages handed down orally and now being shared across cultures, and species,
to the nde reports,
scientific callibration and use of energy materials,
new discoveries of 'intelligence', genetic and neural pathways conducting energy, empathy and consciousness in matter formations we used to be too ignorant and arrogant to even consider possible,
past life rememberances interestingly tranferred into the new life through a constancy of love energy,
blind, double blind and triple blind experimentations with clair abilities and extra sensitive empathies across time, distance and .. I'm a bit loathe to say dimensions because for me it's all one dimension with just more or less ability to 'see' 'feel' 'know' of the other energy vibrations and having less density so we can flow through them all.

We are, as Desiderata says - no less than the trees or the stars...
(we're only beginning to realise we are also no 'more' than the trees and the stars...)
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby runstrails » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:03 am

What a lovely post, Jen! Many thanks. I love this:
But 'evidence' of this is all around us and in the formations provided by emerging knowledges accepting of love / energy in continual motion and growing in awareness that our 'separations - in time, space, matter and in dimensions are not really 'separations', just different points from which we are 'viewing'.

So, the 'evolving' is simultaneous in a way and not linear or hierarchical (as I was envisioning). Makes sense to me.
Yes, watching it unfold is really amazing--even from our (sometimes) limited perspective.

In our consciousness we've come to know this permeating / creating energy as 'love' and attributed it to 'god'.

Yes, this makes sense too....Its almost as if, we are love and evolving to love simultaneously.

I wish I could see vibrations like you do....that part makes sense to me intuitively, but its hard to penetrate the solid facade of everyday life.

Thanks again!
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:40 am

runstrails wrote:Clearly consciousness transcends the body--so when you say 'us' or 'we', are you referring to our consciousness (that is beyond the body). What is this individuated consciousness? Is this a 'soul'? And is this 'soul' (or individuated facet of the One) what creates using the body (in human form) and, no doubt, using other forms in other dimensions?

I am referring to the consciousness that is individualized as each of us as a uniquely evolved perspective. Each perspective originates in Source - the One. All life energy flows from the One. It is but One Living Being. But within that Being life can be perceive in an infinite array of perspectives. The perspective on life that is you has its own unique history of experience through all the conditions and interactions that that you perspective has encountered.

Call it soul if you will, but caution is advised when using any word that has too much baggage attached to it. God is such a word. Better to just get a feeling sense of an eternal conscious perspective than try to label it this or that.

Also, what are 'we' evolving towards eventually? Unity with Source?

Not sure, but there may be more to it than that as we are already Source essence. There is something to the evolution of all these consciousness perspectives that seems unique. The mystery persists.

In human form, some kind of unity with source could be achieved by meditation or being 'present'.

I agree in principle, but unity is also about alignment, and alignment is about a sense of clarity and an openness to the flow of Source energy. To the degree that meditation and presence facilitates that flow then unity is enhanced.

But perhaps we might eventually evolve to greater levels of unity (far more than can be achieved in human form), like the NDEr's talk about?

My sense is that is the case. Infinity truly leaves a lot to the imagination. :wink:

What's your take on what we are evolving to?

Unlimitedness. Of course this is the view from limitation. Aught to be a fun ride though. What's your take?

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:25 am

I wish I could see vibrations like you do....that part makes sense to me intuitively, but its hard to penetrate the solid facade of everyday life.

Smile/Sigh (simultaneously)

The thing is runstrails - you (likely) do - you just maybe don't 'notice' and put conscious store in it, or when you do you're so absorbed in it it's like a breathe of gentle wind. It's so 'always there'. It's there when you laugh, love, cry, sigh, .... it's always there.

Tell me, do you 'feel' (experience & recognise) your own energy at different vibrations? When you're 'down in the dumps'... compared to 'on top of the world' - heavy hearted to light-hearted.

Really it's just an extension of this and 'noticing' similar ranges of energy flow through empathy - realising what is not 'yours' in form, but being able to recognise it in an other.

I understand folks maybe not recognising it, or maybe some I've noticed want to 'own it' and shape it to their will beyond the creative processes of the 'all' (that's even funnier - although I have to recant that a little, sometimes it's really sad - sigh)
but sensing it... that's what the intuitive you is picking up - and maybe the 'rational/separate' mind wants proof of - it's a thing you can't 'know' until you raise your vibration to a like resonance and then you do know because you are there. In matters taken up by the mind you raise your vibration by letting go of 'needing to know' - bit like giving up looking for lost keys that were always 'right there' but you couldn't see because all the energy was focussed in 'trying'.

When you have an 'affinity' (recognition and blending) with any resonance of energy you have harmony no matter the circumstances - the emotions of animals and babies or plants are great examples where our intuition works with energy-reading.

The passage in Conversations with God when 'god' says every time you .... (pretty much everything intuitive and all things creative) and you don't acknowledge it (life energy), you turn me (life energy/vibration) down.

I sooooooo 'get' that!! It's not that it's not there to see, it's that we fail to really see what is there.

The 'funny' thing for me is it will always be validated if you test it with an open heart - in love, not in fear. For every 'turning down' of the reality of continuing life as pointed to by nde you will find not an open hearted investigation, but one filled with fear and often those fears are projected onto those sharing their experience. It's the same in all things.

Absolutely many have learned to do this in fear and separation making enemy, obstacle, means to an end and taking things personally. When as ET says you 'die to yourself' become one with the universe (in mind chatter) there is no where you can look to, or look from, where you can't see it. If you have to believe in it in a separated mind first that's 'turning me down'. Naturally if you turn the life energy down, thicken your solidity / vibration it makes it that much harder for the energy to penetrate.

Sometimes we spontaneously 'let go' - in the energy flow of the laughter from a child, or look of love from someone, or fragile budding of any new life, or spectacular display of energy noticed (not 'turned down) as beauty in harmony (flowers, sunrises, sunsets, landscapes, music, relief from tension -- haha, including the 'little death' - orgasm).

The degrees to which we notice and are appreciative of it, the more we learn by registering the resonance of the frequency matching a certain situation/experience. From there like with any thing we learn by trial and error to harmonise with it in a love energy, either how best to match it, lift it or rise above it, in our own frequencies while respecting all other frequencies.

I know you do 'do it' RT - it's up to you to recognise it, acknowledge & share if you like.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Ralph » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:17 am

Webwanderer wrote:Thanks for your input Ralph, but I don't understand your point, nor what your post adds to the topic. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? For the sake of clarity, could you expand a bit?WW

All I’m saying WW is that if ,in truth, there really is only one of us, and this is seen (recognized) then what is there to agree or disagree … it just doesn’t really matter…. but of course since we are in this body, we will continue to agree and disagree and try to figure out whatever into something in which we are not. It truly is game over regardless what the persistent Me\I does. But until this is realized then what I have just said will sound ridiculous to the "i\you" that still believes in itself.. … but okay, I’ll try to answer your questions anyway
Does the sense of 'me' or 'I' persist beyond the death of the physical form?

How can it if the 'I' or 'me' is just an illusion
Does the argument that 'you' don't exist have any validity?

If 'you' don’t exist then who/what is there to give it validity ?
Is it possible, or even likely, that the concept of no-self is simply a reference to a misunderstood identification with a construct of conditioned thoughts and beliefs about the nature of self expressed in form, and not an indictment on the very existence of an individualized self?

who/what is making this claim ? ... is it not the persistant illusory "I".

Now, you can turn this around and ask me the same question "who am i that is making this claim ?

See, you just can't win in this game , no matter who is speaking it .. it just goes on forever ... I said .. you said... on and on it goes........
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:45 pm

Thanks for the clarification Ralph. It seems to be pretty much standard fare for the no-self concept. It's an empty argument, but then that's the point isn't it? It's just an illusion. Ultimately - Ultimately - you may well be right. However, it's a long way indeed between here and Infinity. And, as experientially robust and full as this physical environment is, I suspect there's a great deal more of that fullness yet to be lived in the experience of being yet to unfold. So what then is the nature of the illusion? Does it have purpose, and if so what might it be? Questions you discount as having no matter may be paramount.

The NDE reporters (and others) show that the experience of individualization persists. The evidence is overwhelming. And as the illusion that is you does not perceive its (individualized) nature, nor its purpose, your discounting it value has little weight. Curiously, all your arguments may Ultimately be correct. But they are irrelevant - or nearly so. All of creation may be illusion but that says nothing for the value in the experience of it. Experience is very real.

So discount it as only illusion if you will, but the validity is not in whether or not individualization is illusion, rather what is its value and potential? The point of this thread is that the sense of I/me persists beyond this human form. There is no death of consciousness. So how long will you be making the argument that individualization is an illusion as a primary point, and when will you begin to explore the nature of being while individualization lasts? Again, eternity is a long time to hold to an 'I don't exist' argument.

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:04 pm

Is it known that NDEers where completely free of ego during their NDE experience? Could it not be that NDE experience, and indeed, experience after death, is still the experience of a thought-to-be self.
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