Persistance of Me/I

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:22 pm

tod wrote:Is it known that NDEers where completely free of ego during their NDE experience? Could it not be that NDE experience, and indeed, experience after death, is still the experience of a thought-to-be self.

Maybe. In some cases, probably. It may have something to do with the depth of the experience and the general evolution of the specific consciousness involved. There is a very wide range of experience reported - from simple out of body observations, to union with Infinite Consciousness, and a whole lot in between.

The common theme however, is that some sense of unique self persists. It's also worth noting that many of those with more encompassing experiences have clearly stated that who they were in physical life became much less relevant. It seems there is a considerable expansion of awareness and being upon the death of the body and is rather indescribable to the limited human perspective. Most report there is a strong sense of returning Home.

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:02 am

Webwanderer wrote:
tod wrote:Is it known that NDEers where completely free of ego during their NDE experience? Could it not be that NDE experience, and indeed, experience after death, is still the experience of a thought-to-be self.

Maybe. In some cases, probably. It may have something to do with the depth of the experience and the general evolution of the specific consciousness involved. There is a very wide range of experience reported - from simple out of body observations, to union with Infinite Consciousness, and a whole lot in between.

The common theme however, is that some sense of unique self persists. It's also worth noting that many of those with more encompassing experiences have clearly stated that who they were in physical life became much less relevant. It seems there is a considerable expansion of awareness and being upon the death of the body and is rather indescribable to the limited human perspective. Most report there is a strong sense of returning Home.

WW

Thank you for your response WW. I must admit that I see nothing in what you have said that could not be the experience of a thought-to-be self. After all, it only exists in imagination, and no limit to this is there?
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:29 am

Tod said: Is it known that NDEers where completely free of ego during their NDE experience? Could it not be that NDE experience, and indeed, experience after death, is still the experience of a thought-to-be self.


Interesting pov Tod. In my own experience I was both AWARE of my 'egoic' (individual) senses and the 'error' or 'impurity' of them without judgement of them - very much accommodated within 'what is' rising and falling eternally.

If you can imagine the experience of a bubble inflating with a skin akin to the skin of a bubble in an ocean of water - it is still a bubble that has 'separated' by the film of whatever 'impurity' that 'surrounds' or 'coats' it, then it pops and whatever was 'in' the bubble is still there 'in' the ocean. What brings the bubble into creation is 'impurity' gathering momentum and clumping together in energy that creates motion. When the reality/clarity/purity surrounding the bubble overwhelms the resistance made by the grouping of the impurity, the bubble bursts and dissipates.

I recall while sort of throwing what I realised very quickly was a cosmic tantrum in the face of love and grace - immediately it was out of kilter with the reality/pure energy. In an instant I realised the 'gracelessness' of it, but it was funny, tinkly, in the realisation of the unnecessary nature of it and the energy muted with the all with the realising of it, allowing the pure energy to overwhelm the impurity, just like a bubble bursting.

The 'impurity' is a resonance or energy operating at a different frequency to the host energy - both my own and that of others' expressions of energy were pulsating vibrations of fear (impurity) and love (purity). The only difference in the light was that the nuances of them were amazingly obvious and clear, instantaneous awareness of the pathway that the energy had come through to that point of expression, the resistances, blockages, blind-sightedness or ignorance of the bigger picture that had clumped together to form this tiny little skin or bubble, and then it would burst back into the purity.


Do bubbles form, exist and dissolve? Absolutely!
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:48 am

tod wrote: I must admit that I see nothing in what you have said that could not be the experience of a thought-to-be self. After all, it only exists in imagination,

Tod, could you outline your understanding of the source of this 'imagination' that conjures this perception of self that you cite, and also explain more detail on - 'thought-to-be self' - thought by who or what? From the certainty of your statement you seem to be quite clear in your understanding. Any details would be appreciated.

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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:27 am

Webwanderer wrote:Tod, could you outline your understanding of the source of this 'imagination' that conjures this perception of self that you cite, and also explain more detail on - 'thought-to-be self' - thought by who or what? From the certainty of your statement you seem to be quite clear in your understanding. Any details would be appreciated.

Gosh, you are rather stretching me here WW :). But here goes:

As seen here, imagination/thought exists, it is the content of imagination that is imaginary. Worlds existing within worlds, all in imagination - a hierarchy of imagination.

If I imagine I exist in any context - that is seen to be a thought-to-be self that is created/thought by thought/imagination.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:42 am

Hi Jen, thanks for your input. I have attempted below a tentative translation between Jen bubble speak into tod imagination/thought speak - given that your 'language' appears to have more subtlety than mine.

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Tod said: Is it known that NDEers where completely free of ego during their NDE experience? Could it not be that NDE experience, and indeed, experience after death, is still the experience of a thought-to-be self.


Interesting pov Tod. In my own experience I was both AWARE of my 'egoic' (individual) senses and the 'error' or 'impurity' of them without judgement of them - very much accommodated within 'what is' rising and falling eternally.


In other words imaginary bubbles within bubbles... all happening within imagination...

If you can imagine the experience of a bubble inflating with a skin akin to the skin of a bubble in an ocean of water - it is still a bubble that has 'separated' by the film of whatever 'impurity' that 'surrounds' or 'coats' it, then it pops and whatever was 'in' the bubble is still there 'in' the ocean. What brings the bubble into creation is 'impurity' gathering momentum and clumping together in energy that creates motion. When the reality/clarity/purity surrounding the bubble overwhelms the resistance made by the grouping of the impurity, the bubble bursts and dissipates.


That 'impurity' being thought... Yes, the thought bubble bursts, is overwhelmed by a larger bubble or clarity...

I recall while sort of throwing what I realised very quickly was a cosmic tantrum in the face of love and grace - immediately it was out of kilter with the reality/pure energy. In an instant I realised the 'gracelessness' of it, but it was funny, tinkly, in the realisation of the unnecessary nature of it and the energy muted with the all with the realising of it, allowing the pure energy to overwhelm the impurity, just like a bubble bursting.


Yes, the thought-to-be self being overwhelmed...

The 'impurity' is a resonance or energy operating at a different frequency to the host energy - both my own and that of others' expressions of energy were pulsating vibrations of fear (impurity) and love (purity). The only difference in the light was that the nuances of them were amazingly obvious and clear, instantaneous awareness of the pathway that the energy had come through to that point of expression, the resistances, blockages, blind-sightedness or ignorance of the bigger picture that had clumped together to form this tiny little skin or bubble, and then it would burst back into the purity.


You are talking of a hierarchy of thought bubbles of different densities (frequencies)....

Do bubbles form, exist and dissolve? Absolutely!


Yes, thought bubbles...
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:57 am

If we can address subtleties in language Tod, by imaginary do you mean filtering information from outside of the available physical data, or fictional, as in not 'real'?

Albert Einstein said, "Imagination ... is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."



I rather like i-magi-nation as the place within us all of esoteric knowledge.

Maybe I should have said can you empath (?) (feel and know, but also know it is not your physical experience... of a bubble forming in the ocean :wink: )

tod said in answer to ww - As seen here, imagination/thought exists, it is the content of imagination that is imaginary. Worlds existing within worlds, all in imagination - a hierarchy of imagination.

If I imagine I exist in any context - that is seen to be a thought-to-be self that is created/thought by thought/imagination.

Both in your explanation to webby and response to my post you 'cut it up' as a hierarchy of --
That's a perspective that comes from not being aware of the 'whole' - the collective or 'collection' of energy in motion and creation without separation, without superiority or subordination - just 'is'.

- hierarchy is probably not the 'right' word for how I 'experienced' the all of the light in the nde. 'Collection' is the closest I can come to it in the explanation about use of the word in wiki - . Although in reading that I do notice that the word came from trying to organise concepts of religion on Earth - it works 'here', but there is no hierarchy in the all - it just 'is'.

There is no illusion of separation, there is no superior or subordinate anything - everything 'is', all 'dimensions' 'are' and in the light they are, all things are... en light ened.

I recently quoted something that resonated with me (harmonics) from Abraham-Hicks

Enlightenment means literally aligning to the Energy of my Source
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:47 pm

More anecdotal evidence of a persistent 'me', and some context on the purpose of the human experience. Quite the imagination. :wink:

http://iands.org/experiences/nde-accounts/660-the-essence-of-life.html

I was in ICU after a bad car accident with internal injuries and bleeding. This was a Thursday evening. I had part of my liver removed, a collapsed lung, and broken bones. I was sleeping. I believe I had been on very strong pain killers. Later, I learned my vital signs were very weak and the nurses thought I would die. I was not cognizant. At some point I found myself leaving my body.

My experience was completely mind and space. I didn't have any visions, but rather sensation and awareness. I went up to a dark space (I say dark even though I wasn’t seeing). There were many, many souls passing upward. It was like a train station with a lot of activity. In this place, I was a highly enlightened being, absorbing knowledge through intuition. I understood that I was in the world of the afterlife where the soul reaches a higher level of consciousness. I dwelled for some time, absorbing knowledge and insight. I thought about many things that had happened in my life and about things that other people and I had done, especially my mentally ill mother who was abusive sometimes. I was aware of experiencing this without judgement.

I was aware that humans judge the actions of others, but that judgment is a kind of human folly. I understood that bad action is inevitable given the lower level of enlightenment of humans. I learned that the hurt from human life was not meaningful in the vast scheme. At the higher level there is no judgement; on the human level forgiveness, understanding how people behave from weakness, is what allows people to move forward. I learned that what people think of as God is the energy of love, which binds the universe together, all life, all physics. The energy of love is the essence of life. I felt astounded and grateful to experience this state of enlightenment and to know 100% that there is only mortal death, but that the soul continues. I remember being surprised that I had ascended as an intact entity, still “me.”


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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby runstrails » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:18 pm

Jen wrote:
I know you do 'do it' RT - it's up to you to recognise it, acknowledge & share if you like.

After reading your post, I think I know what you mean. I'm able to feel the vibrations at least with respect to my feelings. Will try to expand more......thanks!

WW posted:
The energy of love is the essence of life.

I can definitely feel this energy of love in certain states. Great NDE post. Thanks
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby tod » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:14 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:If we can address subtleties in language Tod, by imaginary do you mean filtering information from outside of the available physical data, or fictional, as in not 'real'?


Umm... creation in the moment.

Both in your explanation to webby and response to my post you 'cut it up' as a hierarchy of --
That's a perspective that comes from not being aware of the 'whole' - the collective or 'collection' of energy in motion and creation without separation, without superiority or subordination - just 'is'.

- hierarchy is probably not the 'right' word for how I 'experienced' the all of the light in the nde. 'Collection' is the closest I can come to it in the explanation about use of the word in wiki - . Although in reading that I do notice that the word came from trying to organise concepts of religion on Earth - it works 'here', but there is no hierarchy in the all - it just 'is'.

There is no illusion of separation, there is no superior or subordinate anything - everything 'is', all 'dimensions' 'are' and in the light they are, all things are... en light ened.


Yes 'hierarchy' was probably not the right word; perhaps 'nesting' is better... No cutting up or superiority/subordination was meant.


I have been rereading your 'bubble' post Jen, and am appreciating more and more it's subtlety. Thank you.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:17 am

I hope you can all follow these 'bubbles' of creation/love/Source energy intuited and coated in the ' relative clunkiness' of word filigree-fine bubble coating - some of them even have rainbows on them - as in they are reflecting the spectrum of the light!

Tod re imagination ...
Umm... creation in the moment.

YUM Tod!!
Now your response to my awareness of the 'bubbles' in the light experience reads thus -
In other words creation in the moment bubbles within bubbles... all happening within creation in the moment...

YES!!!!! here, there and everywhere exponentially! And yet, the defining of 'hierarchies' adds another layer of bubble skin pollutants to 'stuff' - still not 'wrong', just a 'different' experience.

Now you an see why it is sooooo hard to articulate with any ...hmm - force - as in the need to use subtlety when wrapping it in 'words' (think of 'interpretation' as open to contamination by the impurities (baggage) of the words - within the recognition that the interpretation of the word may be different depending on which 'bubbles' are bumping into it. It's true that my capacity to see/feel/know these bubbles in motion has 'changed' me, and I'm almost never sure when my energy will overwhelm.


If you watch bubbles (c'mon folks read this article so you know what you're looking for and go get your dishwash and blow a whole heap and watch what happens!!) when two collide they both change shape depending on the size and 'density' of the bubbles - there is much 'exciting' material just in this little article - if you apply it to 'thoughts' as skinned bubbles and intuitions as unskinned free flowing creation energy you 'may' notice the subtlety of difference is all but imperceptible - but 'different' it is. I need to say 'contaminants' that create the 'skin' are only combinations of elements with their own energies of a different 'density'/vibrationary rate. Here we do create a hierarchy of them - that's what judgement is - sorting and grouping and labelling, - here that leads to 'separating', punishing, taking offence etc whereas in the all, of course it's all just energies in motion - creation in the moment.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/bubbles/a ... cience.htm

Hehehe 'name' one of the bubbles... try as you will to 'make it 'stay', 'be' - make one a beloved love and another an enemy/obstacle means to an end and see how 'fleeting' it all is.

RT said: I'm able to feel the vibrations at least with respect to my feelings.

WW posted: The energy of love is the essence of life.
RT said: I can definitely feel this energy of love in certain states.

Abraham Hicks: Enlightenment means literally aligning to the Energy of my Source

Tod said: Umm... creation in the moment


Jen said: Maybe I should have said can you empath (?) (feel and know, but also know it is not your physical experience... of a bubble forming in the ocean

Tod said: I have been rereading your 'bubble' post Jen, and am appreciating more and more it's subtlety. Thank you.


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I was a highly enlightened being, absorbing knowledge through intuition
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:02 am

I have been musing the 'science' of it - chemistry + physics + biology & so much more and was feeling so excited about this bubble notion so I googled 'bubbles of consciousness'

lo and behold.. I found this guy - discussing the science of it!...
http://www.consult-iidc.com/english/science/vectors.htm

and what's in the first line... "My automobile accident and NDE changed my way of thinking by allowing me to shift into a multidimensional perception (a dimension means a direction in which thought can move). " :lol:

Here's an interview in English with him more than 30 years after the nde's - his 'enthusiasm' / sense of being blessed, childlike joy (that the interviewer seems to be too embarrassed or something to acknowledge when he talks about 'finding' magical nature things - namely 'elves' lol!! is still intact.) I'm approaching 30 years in July - and I 'get' it, it only gets stronger).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31LkbXGnuJI

He also says 'stopping my inner dialogue allows me to see the light'.

Definitely worth it to the end where he says... there is only love... Limitless Occilating Vibrating Energy (yum!)
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby heidi » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:21 pm

Thanks for this topic. :-) It has made me smile. Anything I might add would be merely a bubble of hot air momentarily manifested in the stream of everything. :mrgreen:
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby Sum » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:35 pm

Thanks for this thread, it taps into something I've been wondering over the past few months.

I'm a little confused about the idea that all form is "illusion". What do you mean by that, and how do you know it to be true? Why would energy and matter be illusory? I see them as the fundamental building blocks of the universe. Just because they change based on perspective doesn't make them any less "real", does it?

More to the point of the thread, I like WW's thought process about there being uniqueness despite any ultimate unity that may exist beyond form. Not only is each perspective unique, but the experience of that perspective is unique. Nobody else in the universe has the unique experience of bringing my particular two children into this world. Nobody else has been influenced in exactly the same way by exactly the same forces that have shaped my perspective. Nobody else has a physical body comprised of exactly the same atoms that comprise my body. Even in an infinite universe of universes, or an infinite number of dimensions, there is still uniqueness within each universe or dimension.

And this is what the NDEs seem to suggest. Even if we ultimately dissolve into a collective consciousness at some point after death, our own unique history remains.
Last edited by Sum on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Persistance of Me/I

Postby runstrails » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:07 pm

Lovely post, Sum. This simultaneous understanding of the whole and the (unique) part is a very useful contribution of the NDE'ers. There is no need to negate anything (nor attach undue importance to it either).
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