Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:57 pm

runstrails wrote:From the perspective of your true self: There is obviously nothing to desire since you are it--the whole enchalada.


This seems to suggest that the expansion of Consciousness is complete. But is there really any end to such expansion? Could it be that the human experience is just one of The Infinite's realms of exploration and creation? Is not creation, by definition, a new expression? And are we, who are extensions of that Infinite Consciousness, the leading edge where unique desires are explored under specialized conditions and incorporated into the ever growing, never ending, experience of being?

If we incarnate in human form from a greater, fuller, conscious reality, is it not reasonable, even likely, that desire to do so, for what ever Reasons, are a driving force? And is wholeness and completeness necessarily the same, or for that matter, mutually exclusive?

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:06 pm

Webwanderer wrote:When it comes to desire, it is a natural part of life in this world. You came here as a result of a desire of some type - both into this forum and into the world as a whole. There is no need to make an enemy of desire, but merely to understand its purpose and function. While desire may seem to be the cause of suffering, it is only a catalyst. Desire could just as well lead to clarity and joy. It depends on the focus of that desire and the perspective one has on its unfolding (or lack there of).


Desire for things to be different from the way they are NOW, IS the cause of suffering. This must be clearly understood. You can desire to have things in life, a cup of coffee, a warm dinner, a comfortable bed to sleep in, a renovated house, etc.... Our level of attachment to these things and when we are denied these things cause us to suffer.

Webwanderer wrote:You desire clarity and awakening do you not?


To desire awakening would take you in the opposite direction.

Webwanderer wrote:Do you not follow the teachings you point to because you desire their fruits?


I practice the teachings to purify my mind, fruits are simply a bi-product of the practice.

Webwanderer wrote:
And judgement is the result of living in and through a conditioned mind rather than thought-free presence of being.


I don't believe you must be thought-free to be with "presence of being".
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:20 pm

Webwanderer wrote: But is there really any end to such expansion?


The Unmanifested

Webwanderer wrote: Could it be that the human experience is just one of The Infinite's realms of exploration and creation? Is not creation, by definition, a new expression? And are we, who are extensions of that Infinite Consciousness, the leading edge where unique desires are explored under specialized conditions and incorporated into the ever growing, never ending, experience of being?


Samsara, a bottomless bucket. Ultimately unsatisfying. :)
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:40 pm

runstrails wrote:From the perspective of small self: Desire is natural to human beings and makes their world go around. It's how this world keeps moving forward for better or for worse. It can be fulfilling and a major cause of suffering.


Desire can lead to fulfillment(satisfaction)???

None of the pleasures we desire for ever give us lasting happiness or satisfaction.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:07 pm

Fore wrote:Desire for things to be different from the way they are NOW, IS the cause of suffering.


Well, being that you affirmed you position in capital letters, I'm sure you must be right. You do seem to be rather hard lined about your beliefs.

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby runstrails » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:37 pm

Fore wrote:
Desire can lead to fulfillment(satisfaction)???
None of the pleasures we desire for ever give us lasting happiness or satisfaction.


There can indeed be 'noble' desires---like the desire for self-realization. There are other selfless desires too--like having and taking care of a child or a pet. But for the most part, I'm with you----most desires in maya don't give lasting happiness.

WW wrote:

This seems to suggest that the expansion of Consciousness is complete. But is there really any end to such expansion? Could it be that the human experience is just one of The Infinite's realms of exploration and creation? Is not creation, by definition, a new expression? And are we, who are extensions of that Infinite Consciousness, the leading edge where unique desires are explored under specialized conditions and incorporated into the ever growing, never ending, experience of being?

If we incarnate in human form from a greater, fuller, conscious reality, is it not reasonable, even likely, that desire to do so, for what ever Reasons, are a driving force? And is wholeness and completeness necessarily the same, or for that matter, mutually exclusive?


Such a lovely post, WW. Pleasure to read. This is one lovely view of reality.

But of course, we don't know what reality's ultimate purpose is, even if there is one or if that's even the correct way to think about it in those terms.

My take (for what its worth) is that the realization that one is reality is a complete realization. It's the fulfillment of the ultimate desire. Beyond that there is not much to do. Using the dream analogy: No matter how fascinating, ultimately maya is a brief dream that you wake up from. This does not mean I don't enjoy maya for the most part---in fact, it much more fun now! In a way its funny because I'm a scientist and I explore mysteries of the brain everyday---but I have very little interest in exploring levels of consciousness or reality! But I remain fascinated by what unfolds.

In the end, our human perspective does color/filter everything, including the view from our true self. So no doubt, WW, Fore, TTD and I will have different points of view even after (about) self realization. As did Buddha, Shankara, ET and others!
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby treasuretheday » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:39 pm

Fore wrote:None of the pleasures we desire for ever give us lasting happiness or satisfaction.

Does an experience only have merit or value if it lasts forever? Will you only allow yourself to enjoy something that meets that criteria? Because nothing lasts. Nothing stays the same. Life moves in cycles and waves, up and down, back and forth. There is expansion and contraction. There is no grand finale of fufillment where everything stays "just right" once and for all. Maybe there is actually wisdom in savoring whatever joys cross your path. They will all be fleeting.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child
User avatar
treasuretheday
 
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:42 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA, USA

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:44 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Fore wrote:Desire for things to be different from the way they are NOW, IS the cause of suffering.


You do seem to be rather hard lined about your beliefs.



This is truth, not belief.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby ashley72 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:02 am

runstrails wrote:There can indeed be 'noble' desires---like the desire for self-realization. There are other selfless desires too--like having and taking care of a child or a pet. But for the most part, I'm with you----most desires in maya don't give lasting happiness


A "desire" means you have preferences... which gets back to wanting to "control" things rather than experience whatever arises.

Wanting to control outcomes, goes to the root of suffering.

Life happens whether you control outcomes or not. Trees grow, the sun rises each day, nature & things flourish without intervention on our part.

The more the left hemispheres gets in the way, mapping a course towards a finite set of desires, the less we actually seem to taste life.

Image
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:05 am

runstrails wrote: most desires in maya don't give lasting happiness.


Form is impermanent, no-thing lasts forever. It is impossible for any thing to give lasting happiness.

This is not a gloomy way to look at things you do not have to think this way and never enjoy things. It just helps us to limit the attachment we have to things. A piece of wooden planking we use to build a deck may seem very sturdy and solid to the naked eye, but under a high powered microscope we would see that at the molecular level it is constantly changing and decomposing(returning to the formless realm). This can be helpful when in 20 yrs your foot breaks through the board and you must replace it(you will not have the expectation for this to last forever).

Our children, our pets, our bodies, nothing is spared from this truth.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:25 am

treasuretheday wrote:Does an experience only have merit or value if it lasts forever? Will you only allow yourself to enjoy something that meets that criteria?

Of course not, and the wisdom of experiencing this truth allows us to see everything as sacred. All these things we come in contact with on a moment to moment basis are here for us to experience, not hoard or cling to, just experience. Because in a mere mind moment they have passed away(a child's innocence) and they are gone forever.

treasuretheday wrote:
There is no grand finale of fufillment where everything stays "just right" once and for all.


No there is not, things or forms are changing, this is the law of nature.
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby runstrails » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:38 am

Ash, Fore-- I agree with you about desires being a cause of suffering through attachment. Of course, there is the desire for self-realization, which has brought us lasting peace, has it not :wink:.
Great discussion!
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby runstrails » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:49 am

Also, Ashley---you might want to check out the amygdala in addition the the LH. There is a very nice paper by Davison's group that looked at monks during Open Presence Meditation (very similar to becoming 'present' like ET suggests) and it sourced to the amygdala if I recall correctly.

Here is the reference: Lutz, A., McFarlin, D. R., Perlman, D. M., Salomons, T. V., & Davidson, R. J. (2013). Altered anterior insula activation during anticipation and experience of painful stimuli in expert meditators. NeuroImage, 64(C), 538–546.
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Fore » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:50 am

runstrails wrote:there is the desire for self-realization, which has brought us lasting peace, has it not :wink:.


If this is a question like which came first the chicken or the egg? Then you have gone waaaaaayyyyyyy to deep for me. :lol:
User avatar
Fore
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Evidence Of Non-Physical Realities

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:00 am

Fore wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Fore wrote:Desire for things to be different from the way they are NOW, IS the cause of suffering.


You do seem to be rather hard lined about your beliefs.



This is truth, not belief.

Maybe it is, maybe there's yet more to it. Either way it is a belief you hold - and strongly. Your caps are a demonstration of a strong energy behind the words.

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to Beyond the Physical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest