Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:11 am

Can someone here define a non-physical entity? I'm not being funny... It's a serious question.

The way I see it, there are only two main levels. The physical level (matter) is the source domain & the meta-physical level (symbolic thought) is the target domain which gets mapped from the physical domain.

Whenever Webby, Jen, Sandy talk about non-physical entities or a non-physical realm it always seems to manifest from symbolic thought... which isn't proof of a non-physical realm, you guys are simply mistaken about what you're describing.

There are only two direction we can head, in a reductionists direction of reduced simplicity which is below symbolic thought and in the physical domain... or in increasing complexity of systems which manifest strange loops in the target domain (symbolic thought).

If we head in a reductionist direction we go downwards from complex systems => human consciousness => symbolic thought => nervous system => DNA => molecules => atoms => electrons

In the Complexists direction we study emergent properties that arise out of increasing complex systems.

A non-physical realm cannot have any content, it's absurd or non-sensical to even talk about non-physical entities. A ghost is simply a manifestion of symbolic thought (target domain)... derived from our physical domain (source)

The only non-physical realm that can be discussed is any sensical way is symbolic thought, but that is a meta-physical realm not a non-physical realm because all its manifestions are directy derived from the physical (source domain). Some mappings (symbolic representations) like ghosts, angels, gods, devils, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny are just 'delusional' or 'fantasy' mappings.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:24 am

Ashley, I moved your post to its own thread as it did not address the original topic in an honest and respectful manor, nor did it show any indication that you have reviewed the evidence cited. Please put future criticism and aspersions, such as 'Santa Claus', 'Easter Bunny', 'delusions' and 'fantasy' here. If someone wishes to comment on them, they are free to do so.

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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:43 am

Wow, rather defensive. Seems like I may have hit a raw nerve. My post was respectful and serious addition to your thread discussion on evidence of a non-physical realm.

Any non-physical realm is symbolic in nature... You obviously weren't ready for a serious discussion.

The reason I made references to both Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny... is because these mappings are symbolic representations which are mapped from the physical space onto the target domain (Meta-physical)... if you realise it's merely symbolic it's referred to as a fiction, a fantasy. However, if you mistaken symbolic thought (target domain) for reality (source domain) it becomes a delusion.

Fairly straightforward really.

All your non-physical evidence is merely based on symbolic thought, I'm merely a messenger trying to get you to see through those thick weeds Webby.

Webby, don't be so close-minded or rigid in your thinking.

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For the record my response was originally posted to this thread discussion => http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11144
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:07 am

Ash said: Can someone here define a non-physical entity?

I'm not being funny... It's a serious question.

I can try, in seriousness and respect.

Firstly a disclaimer: all definitions are personal, so what I may consider a definition that satisfies my criteria, by my experiences are personal perspectives, based on my own criteria of 'proof'.

Any assumption for or from anyone else that I am saying that the definition I employ will suit their criteria is null and void.

From that premise - my definition of a non-physical entity is the energy that exists outside of the biological form of blood and guts and bone etc

An example that I would and have accepted are those who were maybe once in biological form who are no longer, and their energy still expressing and communicating into the physical environment.
Having said that the energy into communication may also come from entities who are not in blood and guts and bone physical form and I may have no idea or proof that they ever were - and yet the calibre and accuracy of their communication is valid and 'provable' in containing information outside of the physical world view.


Ash said: The way I see it, there are only two main levels.
The physical level (matter) is the source domain & the meta-physical level (symbolic thought) is the target domain which gets mapped from the physical domain.


I'm not sure I even understand this clearly... I can only say yes a person in physical form processes information through their physical capacity.
The thing is communication energy can come into the vibrationary range of 'pick up' from outside of physical 'form' in terms of time, space, distance and perspective.

In communication there is a sender and a receiver - the 'sender' can be energy flows of many vibrational ranges - be that physical or non-physical. Unless of course one would like to embrace energies of deceased or unmanifest entities as part of either one of these 'main levels' .. which one I wouldn't be sure.

I'ts not a matter of 'creating' these communications and facts outside of time-space-distance, it's a matter of being receptively willing to 'tune in' to the frequency level of the sender and to follow a criteria for acceptance or not on the merit of the information - just as one would in any communication interaction.

Does this help?
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby karmarider » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:03 am

hmm, I am taken aback--on a forum which has published rules and which generally encourages helpful discourse, I'm a bit surprised that a moderator starts a thread and enforces specific unpublished rules.

I don't see anything disrespectful about Ashley's post and I fail to see by what published rule it was moved.

If the purpose in the original thread was to produce an effusion of agreeable self-congratulation, well then, that was acheived.

Nobody is allowed to disagree with what I've written. I urge the moderators to move any criticism of what I've written to its own thread. Hehe!
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:15 am

karmarider wrote:I'm a bit surprised that a moderator starts a thread and enforces unpublished rules.


Rule #3. Stay on Topic
When posting in an existing thread, please avoid off-topic posts. Non-related posts may be deleted by the Moderators. Remember, you can always start a new thread, dealing with a new topic.


Ashley's post had nothing to do with evidence of non-physical reality. It was yet another materialist attempt to discredit beliefs in non-physical possibilities. There have been endless discussions and debates on the matter in numerous threads and we all know it.

The following quote is cited from the first post in the 'Evidence For Non-physical Realities' to make clear the intent of the topic. Ashley's post was in clear violation of the intent.
Note: This is a thread intended to discuss or comment on the evidence for non-physical reality. Posts that simply cite studies of the materialistic perspective, or are critical without having actually read the material, will be removed. Feel free to start a unique thread exclusive to materialistic science if you wish. This thread is for those who wish to educate themselves on the state non-physical exploration from a more scientific perspective.


The problem is that it has been claimed that evidence does not exist for non-physical consciousness. But the materialist jargon that is endlessly cited distracts from the possible discussions that could be useful for those that may be interested and are open to information that some blindly reject our of hand. I made it clear at the beginning of the thread what the topic was intended for. Ashley's post violated that intent so it was moved to its own topic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You too Karmarider are in violation of forum rules.

Rule #12. Public Discussion of the Moderators' Actions is Not Allowed
If you feel that there is a moderator whose actions are inappropriate, please contact another moderator or the admin privately. We do not allow public discussion of the moderator's actions.


Don't you think it would be prudent if you make a claim about forum rules to read them first.

Let this be the end of moderation complaints in the open forum. If you believe a moderator has acted improperly, take it up in the prescribed manner.

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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:50 am

Webwanderer wrote:Ashley's post had nothing to do with evidence of non-physical reality. It was yet another materialist attempt to discredit beliefs in non-physical possibilities. There have been endless discussions and debates on the matter in numerous threads and we all know it.


I was pointing out that a non-physical realm is an erroneous category. Because the true-believer fails to see that non-physical entities (ghosts or Angels) are merely symbolic representations, which manifest from symbolic thought - mapping our physical space & physical behaviours. Angels & Ghosts have no more reality than a child who believes in Santa Claus & the Easter Bunny. They both are a result of believing symbolic mappings have a physical or non-physical existence. Neither is true, these symbols may appear 'real', but in reality are merely an artefact of symbolic thought. End of story!
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby karmarider » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:04 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Note: This is a thread intended to discuss or comment on the evidence for non-physical reality. Posts that simply cite studies of the materialistic perspective, or are critical without having actually read the material, will be removed. Feel free to start a unique thread exclusive to materialistic science if you wish. This thread is for those who wish to educate themselves on the state non-physical exploration from a more scientific perspective.


The problem is that it has been claimed that evidence does not exist for non-physical consciousness. But the materialist jargon that is endlessly cited distracts from the possible discussions that could be useful for those that may be interested and are open to information that some blindly reject our of hand. I made it clear at the beginning of the thread what the topic was intended for. Ashley's post violated that intent so it was moved to its own topic.


Yes, you're right, you made it very clear in your original post of what you wanted.

I made it very clear in my post as well of what I wanted; that any criticism of my post should be moved to its own thread, as I find your criticism of it, while true and authorative, very inconvenient. It sounds silly, doesn't it?

I am aware of breaking the rule in the criticism of moderation, and it's my first time in 1670 posts.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:06 am

Thanks for sharing your perspective so clearly and succinctly Ash.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby SandyJoy » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:17 am

Perhaps it would help those who like to say there is nothing beyond the physical to realize that there is nothing that really is physical---the non-physical is all there is ---this that you so desperately want to nail down as physical is something akin to 'vapor' being seen or a shadow. This that we call life is not physical. This world you call 'material' is the shadow that leads to the Tree.

This world is much more the symbolic world, it is all symbols, everything we see represents the Truth, the Living Principle that is 'seen' as this world of 'things'. Kind of like numbers are the symbols that we use, but those numbers would not and could not exist if there was not an actual principle of arithmetic behind them. There is Divine Principle that exists before the symbols, which is this time space world.

Or you can think of this world as an image of Light. There is a Light, Zero Point Light, that is totally still and very huge and infinite and it does not move, a Light before this world of limited moving light---but this limited moving light is an image, a reflection of Something Real---but this world is is much more like an image of What Is Real---like looking in a mirror---the images exist but they are not the Real One that stands in front of the mirror.

When we 'appear' to die, the body is nothing and not physical in the first place. We call it physical, but physical is insubstantial, transient, nothingness. The Self is not the body, the Self is not in the images---Just like the self that looks in the mirror is not in the mirror image. You are greater and more than you know. To wake up, is to wake up this Fact and Re-cognize our Real Self. The Real Self is the one that 'leaves' the body when we die as we see that we are not the body and the form is nothing real, nothing real.

Ok, I could write so much more on this, but it would take pages---so I will just let this stand as is, just to say that there is no physical at all anywhere, ever. So wanting to debate that there is nothing but the physical is not even valid to some of us who know that there is no Physical, material being or thing in this world or another ---only the idea of such.

This world of light, energy, ephemeral dream exists because God alone exists. It is God and God's Mind and that Is All That Is---there is no physical "God" there is only God Being Self Aware of Itself as the infinite variety and unfolding expressions of God as the Self I Am and You are---Each of 'us' is the Light Eternal expressing the Infinity of Itself as the symbols, qualities and attributes of God --- There is nothing that is NOT from or out of or made of Its holy, divine, infinite, and perfect Being. The physical world is an appearance, is a dance, is a song, is flash of light, is nothing "real" but does exist ---but the Awareness of it all IS Real and our Everlasting Identity as this Awareness and all of It and all of This Is because God Is All in All.

Is all this my belief, yes it is---a belief based on what I have tested, proven and found true. I have seen both sides and Ashley, as much as you and the many materialists will fight with these ideas about the non-physcial and say there can be only material matter --- I will tell you and them that this side only appears to be what we call material matter----but there is no actual 'real' 'material matter' only the 'seeming' of such.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby karmarider » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:36 am

There is only one thing that I am certain of, in way that I cannot be certain of anything else, and that is, that I exist.

And me, this sense of existence, I, is everything. It has no definable qualities. The only quality it has is that it is constant. It is the same now as it was five minutes ago, five years ago, and fifty years ago. But that's not a quality--it's really an absence of the property of change.

And this is the simplicity that Sandy calls variously the child, God, Light, Real, and many other capitalized words. While not incorrect, I do not tend towards these effusion of words, as they can be abstract, distracting, misleading and imply that what is to be seen is complicated and mystical. The truth is plain and simple. It is just you. Literally, just you.

The you that you are is clearly simple. It is clearly non-physical. It is what Ashley might call attention on attention--but that too is a bit abstract.

It's actually quite exasperating that the simplicity is so simple that it is difficult to convey. And yet, everyone knows it. Even in our most distracted state, the you that you are is always present in awareness, never hurt or helped by what happens or has happened or will happen.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby far_eastofwest » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:37 am

All is 'physical'.
Some stuff just isn't measurable easily (imagine trying to convince someone about 'brain waves' in times gone by, let alone microbes or radiation, would have been burnt at the stake by the religiously devout).

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/quantum-scientists-offer-proof-soul-exists/story-fneszs56-1226507452687

mind body soul - that is the Top Banana
Ever wonder why NDE people don't find the nearest rafter to dangle from shortly after their experiences ... yep, the spirit life is a bit boring, this life with all three aspects is the most desirable, NDE people generally have a better appreciation of life after and take a bit of time to discern what the little stuff is and what matters. They like to share this so that others don't have to be run over by a truck to learn this life lesson and can cut out the middle man (ie, nearly dying).

What happens when the said soul (not a 'non physical', just not 'currently measurable') finds its self with No Body to love? Perhaps....
Find a new host, wait around to see if current host is dead or just 'sleeping', if the soul is a bit battered from a miserable life, it may find competition a bit stiff for a new host, so animals with less brain power and no opposable thumbs may have to do for next round. (think buddhism has some similar idea, maybe).

Life in the body is unpredictable, exciting, has pleasures of the flesh, is dangerous..... quite appealing - not to mention all those hugs that can be shared (some virtual ones wouldn't go astray on this forum).

:-)
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Especially when there is no cat....
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:40 am

smileyjen101 wrote:I'm not sure I even understand this clearly... I can only say yes a person in physical form processes information through their physical capacity.


Your physical space & physical behaviours are very evident to every human being. Get up and walk 5 metres... That is physical behaviours occurring in physical space. This is the source domain.

If however you had to go a greater distant to travel, say to the next town and you had never been there before... you would need a drawn map or conceptual map of how to get there (symbolic representation). This is the target domain.

The only way to understand a symbolic representation (a map) is if your biological system can compute symbolic representations. Well, you're in luck because humans are equipped with enough biological complexity to not only read the symbolic map but to actually conceive the symbols in the first instance.

True-believers who erroneously & "symbolically think" that a mythology (afterlife, Heaven, Hell) as having a physical or non-physical reality are delusional. Because they mistaken symbolic thought (target domain) as evidence of a non-physical realm (source domain).

Art is a great example of symbolic mapping in the target domain. Even photo-realistic Art is merely a symbolic mapping of the physical space & physical behaviours.

Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny were only able to be truly shared to the masses, once Art developed to the point that people could illustrate these ideas for others to clearly see the symbolic representation. Language was the other way of course by describing in written words or by word-of-mouth what these mythical creatures symbolically represented.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby downeyjr » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:34 am

Pf, didn't believe I would live the day to enjoy a topic on this forum so much :D Thanks Ashley :)

But from what I understand(from the other topics), you didn't understand Tolle enough, you are trying to make a sensible understanding of his teachings, because otherwise you simply wouldn't want to believe.
It's not as simple as focusing on nothingness in the physical space, that's pure meditation :)

The basics of Tolle's teachings and what the gurus in this forum believe are that you have to go through an awakening process to be forever happy and live in a constant bliss.
This is what sells his book, this is what attracts so many unhappy people. And the whole awaking process includes a NON-PHYSICAL ingredients. They say that you have to realize/experience that everything is NON-PHYSICAL! The PHYSICAL world is an illusion that arises from the non-physical. You also, are not a separate physical entity in the physical world. You are one with everything, which practically means that all physical objects are ONE. There is no real physical separation between physical objects. Everything is one, merged! If you see two glasses, they are actually ONE, in a sense that they are both an illusion arising from a NON-PHYSICAL reality. This is what Tolle is all about. This is what these religions are all about. This is what the main gurus of this forum are trying to teach. This is what I refuse to believe in. This is what confuses so many people and makes them even unhappier than before. And if you want to be happy, you have to experience and realize that everything is non-physical. Then you can be happy. Most people that go through this ,,awakening,, start to believe that they experienced that and live in an illusion and others are chasing it forever with the impression that they will never be happy if they don't find it, which actually makes them unhappy, because there is no such a thing.

It's all in their thoughts which do arise from a physical brain, that is a separate entity in this universe, which in no way has any correlation with any happiness or unhappiness. It's just a fact.

p.s Two things in this world that can make you really rich in no time:

1. Promise easy money (The Secret)

2. Promise constant happiness (Tolle and the all the religions he is 100% copy/pasting).
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby rideforever » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:43 pm

downeyjr ...

There is an old game that you can play, it reveals a lot about what's going on inside.

You take a debate like Peace vs War or Spiritual vs Material ... and for 5 mins you argue passionately one side of the debate, and afterwards you argue the other side of the debate for 5 minutes with all your passion.

You will see, you will be able to do it quite well.

You will sound convincing and convinced, fist clenched waving with your passion - no matter which side you argue.

No matter which side you argue, you feel good, you feel right.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small
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