Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby Testigo » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:01 pm

That plane of existence or new dimension you refer to, is the target domain (symbolic thought). Symbolic thought maps the physical behaviours & physical space (source domain) using conceptual metaphor onto a target domain.

Gods, Spirits, Angels, Heaven, Devils, Hell... all manifest from symbolic thought - which is the unique ability for the human species to map it's source domain (physicality) into the target domain (symbolism).


I understand your point. You have made it very clear. I just have problems trying to apply that concept of simple ”voices” to the whole content of The Koran, The Bible, The Mormon’s Bible, the Sacred books of the Jews, the incredible extensity of the sacred books of Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrism that took centuries to be completed... just mentioning the most important religious traditions with a written canon, and without considering the visions, revelations and miracles that often accompanied their creation. Besides, I don't think that in this scheme fits the modern aliens and their common spectacular shows and occasional abduction of human beings.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:41 pm

testigo wrote:I understand your point. You have made it very clear. I just have problems trying to apply that concept of simple ”voices” to the whole content of The Koran, The Bible, The Mormon’s Bible, the Sacred books of the Jews, the incredible extensity of the sacred books of Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrism that took centuries to be completed... just mentioning the most important religious traditions with a written canon, and without considering the visions, revelations and miracles that often accompanied their creation. Besides, I don't think that in this scheme fits the modern aliens and their common spectacular shows and occasional abduction of human beings.


Jaynes is not implying that "Hallucinatory Voices" is the sole cause of religious traditions & symbolism. Jaynes is implying that "Hallucinatory Voices" we're attributed to "Gods" or "Spirits" in the Bicameral Mind (pre-conscious man). This was a prelude to religious traditions based on social constructs. Jaynes theorised that religious traditions filled the void left, after the hallucinatory voices fell silent in conscious man.

The Beginning of Consciousness And then came the development of a new way of making decisions, a kind of protoconsciousness. All significant decisions previously had been based on the bicameral mind. But after its breakdown, after the hallucinated voices no longer told people what to do, there seem to have developed various other ways of discerning messages from the gods to make decisions. We call these methods divination. Throwing of lots, the simplest kind; putting oil on water and reading its patterns; dice; the movements of smoke; a priest whispering a prayer into a sacrificial animal, sacrificing it, and then looking at its internal organs to find out what the god intends. All of these were extensively and officially practiced. And then the method of divination that is still around, astrology. It is remarkable to go back and read the cuneiform letters of kings to their astrologers and diviners of around 1000 B.C. (Pfeiffer, 1935). These cruel Assyrian tyrants, who are depicted in their bas-reliefs as grappling with lions and engaging in fierce lion hunts, are, in their letters, meek and frightened people. They don’t know what to do. Astrologers tell them, “You cannot move out of your house for five days”; “You must not eat this”; “You should not wear clothes today” — extraordinary strictures that official diviners would interpret as what the gods meant. It is interesting to note that not only has astrology lasted, but it is being followed by more people at present than ever before. - Julian Jaynes
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby SandyJoy » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:17 pm

Here is another scientist, Rupert Sheldrake, who speaks of how important it is that the sciences based in material dogma are not only wrong, but the scientific dogma of materialism (i.e. the world is mechanical) is perpetuating sociological anguish based in dangerous, erroneous beliefs.

Rupert Sheldrake - The Science Delusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsSUqVpw ... ture=share

It's about 30 Minutes, and he really cannot get too deeply into the subject, but the overall idea is clear and the point that this is a conscious universe, and that all 'things' are self-aware energy of unbound mind.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby maxiny » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:56 am

As per myself the non physical entity is that what does exist but does not have the actual existence I do not know if you are agree but a very big example is the air. Another example is the pain. We can not actually see them but they do exist.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:56 pm

Making in-organic matter come alive.... OMG what will the Christians be thinking!

http://www.ted.com/talks/lee_cronin_making_matter_come_alive.html
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby SandyJoy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:46 pm

Ashley,

Perhaps the Christians do have the story wrong, perhaps they have mis-understood what Jesus came to say. Perhaps they have not made the leap from God as an objective "man in the sky" to God as All That Is, to God as the Infinite Light of Everything. Perhaps they do have to lose that "old man's" use of "Christianity" to distort Jesus's teachings in order to control and use the "old egos' for power over others though fear.

Yes, I see too that this "Christian" dogma of every man is "a sinner getting back to God" view is a distortion of the Truth and certainly has done much damage to their followers. I see your reason for anger.

Jesus came to say we are the Light of God, not just Jesus, but all of Us, Every man. Jesus spoke the Truth, but yes, his words were corrupted or distorted and used for the Old Men to take power and control. We all see this.

But, you are throwing God out of Life Itself, out of your view of things, out of the whole picture you try to speak of--- just because you see the lies of the "old man's view"

However, in order to really be free and really Know the Truth, you will have to realize and recognize, for yourself, that God's Presence is in fact Being All That Is.

Perhaps, when you contribute to the Light of Truth, then all religions as dogma and ideologies will be shut down and over forever.

But, do not throw out God with your anger towards 'Christians'. The Truth that Jesus came to say was that God is the Light of Every man, and the Christ is Within You.

Jesus said: 2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'
If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'
If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Jesus said: "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you."

I think your nagging dislike for God is really your heart and soul telling you the Truth of your Real Selfhood, telling you to not be afraid and stand up and lift your heart so you can Know for sure that your Real Identity is Here and Always has been. You are Already One with the Living One, right Now, you are the Light of The Living Presence that Is Here right now, You are This Presence of God as God's Awareness; all of you, body and mind soul of You is God's Light and Divine Intelligence and no other Being have you ever been.

You can Know It directly, without doubt, you can do It and Live It by making the conscious acknowledgment that the Ineffable, the Supernal One, Isness, Reality, Godhead, is the only possible Identity that actually exists and is, therefore, being this Awareness-I-am here and now.

From the peak of the mountain you will know; you won't deny the Living One. And in retrospect, looking back at our journey, we know without doubt that nothing but God has ever gone on, even when we thought we were lost, in when we were in the shadow of the valley of death and so afraid and alone and wondered where God was, God was There, God was and Is and has been The Light that Here and With Us always.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby SandyJoy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:45 pm

Just thinking further on this. I did not watch your video clip you posted--so I have nothing to say about that. I am speaking to your sarcastic statement:


"Making in-organic matter come alive.... OMG what will the Christians be thinking!"

But, here is what I was just thinking; I know you respect Eckhart Tolle, or you would not be posting here, right? So, why do you suppose Eckhart Tolle titled his first book "The Power of Now"?

I'll tell you why I think he did---He titled it that, because he found that Now is the Living Power of God. Awareness is Now, they are the Same One--Now is God. God All That Is Now. Now is One Presence and Tolle found that when he was in the Now he was healed, or healed of misery and pain. Now 'healed' his (Tolle's) misery and depression and self concern and worry. Now is Power; why does Now have Power? Why is being in the Now "Power-full"? What is Here, what is Present as Now that can 'heal' our hearts and soul, why does Now have the Power to change us, to lift us to higher vision of our Self so that we are free from the pits and agony of a belief in a me who is not Now'.

What was this Now that Tolle found? and Why did its Power move him so much that he was free. And how did the Power of Now become so important to him that he wanted to share what he 'saw' with others? Why is Now so special and why Is there the Power of Now.

Well, we know that The Truth is Now, and the Absoluteness of Now is irrefutable. Yes, This is It, Now is the very Living of God's Presence, this is God's Life, Now is God and God is Here. To realize Now is to know God's Mind and God's Self Awareness as All That Is going on. That is the Power of Now.

Always, in order for us to see what is Real and to uncover Peace and understanding we must always begin with Now. Why is that? It is because God is Now and Now is the Only time We Are. Why are we Always Now? Because there is Only One Now and It is Absolute.

It is Always Here and Always Now, there is no other Now. If Now is Absolute, and It is, then It is God. God is the Absolute. Now is God's Beingness being. Now is One Isness.

Right now is this Fact of Truth and Here the Truth unfolds for us, there is no other place to begin but Here and Now. Where does the Power that is Now come from? How does Now become Power-full? Because Now is the Primacy, Now is the First One, the Immutable One, the Untouchable and Perfect and Pure One, Now is the Allness of All That Is and obviously It includes You because You are Here and Now.

Now is Immutable, It is Total, It is inescapable, It cannot be held, controlled, had or taken from us, no one can own It, buy It, or capture and corrupt It. This Now and Here and is the Presence of an Almighty One. This Now is Infinite Being of Light Divine and wonder of wonder, It is Our Eternal and Unbound Identity. We are the Living Power of Now. We are the Living Light of Truth. Body mind and soul, total as you are, complete and All.

Now is Reality Itself and It Here, obvious as I am Aware.

Awareness and Now are One. We are experiencing as The Awareness of God the Absolute.

We are Self Knowing Living Presence of God, because there is no other Now here nothing beyond what Is Absolute. It is all that I am and all that you are; Now is Life and Life is God the Infinite All; God Alone, Single, Only and is the Absoluteness of Now.

Look and see the Perfection of Now. Look and see the Ever Lasting Isness of Now. Look and see the Dominion of Now. Look and see the Omniscience of Now. Look and see the Omnipresence of Now, the Totality of Now as the Universe entire. And you will know why Tolle calls his book the Power of Now.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:01 pm

coriolis wrote:
"Without me there would be no chicken" , said the egg.
"Without me there would be no egg", said the chicken.

Ashley said:
The problem is 'chickens" or 'eggs' don't speak. :lol:


While I realise this was an off the cuff response Ash, it's a perfect example of a false assumption being built upon to further a perspective
Yes I realise you may be valid in not accepting the quoted sentences of a chicken and an egg as factual ... but ...
- just because chickens and eggs don't speak in a language of your understanding you disregard their communication abilities as if they have none.
Your statement is either ignorance from your perspective (po viewing) or arrogance from it and applied in this circumstance as an authority.

The notion laid out by coriolis is correct of all things - they are simultaneously one and only their perspective changes with experience.

In a rationalist-time-space 'separated' view one looks for a creator-created, judge-victim, cause-effect, physical-non-physical, separating & 'looping' , 'perspective' etc

whereas the egg-chicken, creator-created, judge-victim, cause-effect, physical-non-physical are simultaneously one.

Ash said: Jaynes is not implying that "Hallucinatory Voices" is the sole cause of religious traditions & symbolism. Jaynes is implying that "Hallucinatory Voices" we're attributed to "Gods" or "Spirits" in the Bicameral Mind (pre-conscious man). This was a prelude to religious traditions based on social constructs. Jaynes theorised that religious traditions filled the void left, after the hallucinatory voices fell silent in conscious man.

Define hallucinatory as it is used in this context for me.

Def: Hallucination: a perception in the absence of a stimulus which has qualities of real perception.

If one hears something that others do not hear it may be a lack of capacity in those observing / judging rather than an actual lack of stimulus.

...like stating chickens and eggs as not having communication abilities just because one does not speak their language.


(btw, I was pretty impressed-amused watching a biological scientist getting soooooo excited about learning the language of particular bacteria and translating it to other scientists so that they could understand that bacterial 'attacks' are not random or unorganised... they sit dormant then one then all the bacteria of the one group scream Go! Attack! Charge! as she translated.. and they jump out of seemingly nowhere proliferating & replicating at an incredible speed and off they go to 'war' as she translated... :wink: )

(As another 'aside' I was recently also impressed-amused to find in The Geography of Claudius Ptolemy (a greek who mapped ancient places and peoples) he listed my Granny's people as being known as the Vacomagi - when you break this down across the ancient Greek-Hellenistic & Roman languages it comes down to the people 'to call or who call'' (voco) and (magi) = 'to read the stars and manipulate the fate that the stars foretold' and wise men (I'd add & women) using supernatural means to achieve an effect on the natural world'

Christians called them witches/warlocks
:lol: ... we just call them 'fey'.

It's all perspective by capacity, willingness and experience.)
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:19 pm

God is just a label for an intelligent creator. If you believe an intelligent creator made the Universe & all of life, than you believe in God. If you believe that the Universe & all the living species just evolved by diversity, then you don't believe in the concept God. God is merely a concept about meaning.

I don't equate the power of now to a creator. The power of now is just a portal into the non-symbolic realm. Symbols are mappings which carry high level meaning. Meaning can carry positive & negative concepts. Too many negative concepts can create human suffering. In particular the symbolism which carry the concept of time are the most interesting symbols. Human suffering seems to involve these elements....fear, faith, hope, despair, guilt, regret etc.... and the heart of all these perspectives is the concept of time.... a past & future! Eckhart Tolle realised that focussing more on the NOW or present moment, can help open a portal into the non-symbolic realm that is devoid of time.

In other words, Eckhart Tolle has found a practice for harmonising our symbolic layer with our physical layer (non-symbolic layer). His basic practice is getting us to return often... to attending to the non-symbolic layer (formless = form without meaning). This practice helps one understand the overall composition of reality. He knows you can't escape the symbolic ... & why would you anyway? ...as symbolism has an intrinsic role to play in human experience. However, too much symbolism and not enough non-symbolism can cause disharmony to the individual.

I believe that soon it may be possible to create artificial life from a non-organic compound. This would be a major breakthrough in understanding what organic life is.

We already have a basic pattern of what conditions create the basic building blocks of life (proto-cell).

1. External energy source.
2. Membrane or body.
3. A code that can be mutated & self-replicated.
4. A system of competition for energy.

Image

Fig 1. The bottom-up approach focuses on assembling a minimal protocell from simple inorganic and organic components. The top-down approach focuses on the simplification of modern cells. Eventually these two approaches will meet in the middle.

But what about artificial intelligence? I think finding the conditions or recipe for artificial intelligence is going to be much harder, but I believe Hofstadter is on the right path. Intelligence needs to also evolve by itself. Therefore it can't have known axiom that can be derived in a top-down fashion. The intelligence needs to evolve in a bottom up fashion. In other words the symbols need to mutate and write themselves. In other words, you cant have human software programmers writing the code for intelligence, the software code needs to write itself! Hofstadter calls it "statistically emergent mentality" or a kind of non-deterministic programming using creative analogies (mappings).


Erwin Schrödinger noted that the question of how mind and matter mix has been around since at least the time of the philosopher Democritus, a contemporary of Socrates, in the 5th century BCE. Democritus, who was among the first to hypothesize that matter was composed of atoms, was already puzzling about its relationship to sensory phenomena. His writings have largely disappeared, but a fragment has survived presenting a dialogue between the intellect and the senses.

Democritus introduces the intellect having an argument with the senses about what is 'real'.

The intellect says; 'Ostensibly there is colour, ostensibly sweetness, ostensibly bitterness, actually only atoms and the void.'

To which the senses retort; 'Poor intellect, do you hope to defeat us while from us you borrow your evidence? Your victory is your defeat.'

~ Erwin Schrödinger

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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:02 am

I could have just as easily posted this query in a variety of topics here, looking for neurological understanding.

.... Can anyone explain simply to me why the 'reptilian' part of the brain, and/or the limbic system for example, the lateral amygdala are unable to process and communicate 'robust, richly interactive natured recollections'?

Who says, by what criteria, and is it a certainty?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:23 pm

Ash said: (formless = form without meaning)

Meaning, as applied by the notion of separation by perspective?
After all when we go into presence as ET details, into the NOW - nothing has been eliminated, only our perspective of, attachment to, has changed. (true or false?)

....

Ash said: The power of now is just a portal into the non-symbolic realm.

Symbols are mappings which carry high level meaning. Meaning can carry positive & negative concepts. Too many negative concepts can create human suffering. In particular the symbolism which carry the concept of time are the most interesting symbols. Human suffering seems to involve these elements....fear, faith, hope, despair, guilt, regret etc.... and the heart of all these perspectives is the concept of time.... a past & future!


Ash, can you explain, and might be difficult I know, the properties of the 'non-symbolic realm'. Where is it in relation to us - is it both internal and external, or just one. If it's something we can 'enter' (used loosely obviously) and something we can 'exit' then it would by reason always be there, with us just not aware of it.

Is it possible that, with the collapse of time as you detail, there is also the collapse of the positive-negative across all 'symbols' eg fear-faith, hope-despair etc... as in the collapse of perspective, not because 'nothing' is there, but because everything is there? Equilibrium of elements, rather than elimination of elements?

By your own standards in the A Dazzling Dark: A Non Dual NDE topic would this be termed 'supernatural' / 'paranormal', 'delusional' 'occultism', or is it just natural and known by mainstream science in empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning?
Ash said: (of experiences)
The two possibilities are the most common generalisations.

1. Scientific explanations based on brain function & neurological factors using a scientific method of inquiry based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

2. Paranormal experiences that lie outside "the range of normal experience or scientific explanation". Occultism is regarded as unscientific as it does not make use of the standard scientific method to obtain facts.


...................

Ash said: Eckhart Tolle realised that focussing more on the NOW or present moment, can help open a portal into the non-symbolic realm that is devoid of time.

What if it's not devoid of it - what was past, what is present and what will be future - doesn't disappear, our perspective of it might and then does not separate/judge it because it all collapses into NOW, by our attention or non labelling/judging/separating (? true or false)
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Re: Criticisms of Non-Physical Perspectives

Postby ashley72 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:21 am

Jen,

Did you know that the cosmos is always going from order to disorder?

There is always an increase in total entropy...an irreversible process always has an increase in entropy (disorder).

In contrast, Living systems have a decrease in entropy during their life cycle. Then during death of the living organism there is a sudden increase in entropy again... a re-alignment with the cosmos occurs. Death might be defined as the inability of a living thing to continue to create negative entropy for its use. As long as a life form exists, it creates negative entropy, which we observe as the creation of order.

In nature, DNA is the carry of the "ordered sequence" from one living system to another.

Erwin Schrödinger stated that life feeds on negative entropy, or negentropy as it is sometimes called.

Ego tendencies, which is the process of labelling or judging other things, based on how it fits into the order of things, comes from our fundamental dependence on negative entropy for our survival as a living thing... which is the opposite direction of entropy in the cosmos. Maybe this is why humans were meant to suffer?

Utter acceptance of suffering and all it forms aligns one with the cosmos!

Does this help?

Remember, the secret to life... is to die before you die.

What does that really mean?

In the context of entropy, it means the living system we are....should embrace & utterly accept the prevalence of disorder in the cosmos, because ultimately all living systems are moving towards this disorder. The ego tendencies is always towards order, this is why the Ego is always trying to avoid & fight against its own suffering which is really another word for disorder.

The thinking mind or "Ego" primarily uses the power of "information" to continually turn "disorder" back into order throughout its life cycle. Its like the thinking mind is in constant battle with the direction of the cosmos or non-living systems.

This video I watched recently builds upon this idea => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUVLoxownmM
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