Why be born in the first place?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby Clouded » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:05 am

Wow my words made someone cry tears of joy? I didn't know I had that power in me lol! I'm 'squeeeezzy hugging' you back smiileyjen101!

I thought of something very disturbing to me, could be the fear behind being God. In the book, God talked about the soul KNOWING when it is time to leave the mind and body. Apparently it decides to leave when the mind and body serves no more purpose to achieving it's goal of evolution (experiencing what it is like to be God). If I train my mind to believe I'm God by thinking Godly thoughts and then one glorious day, I get some epiphany that I really AM God (which finally fulfills my soul's purpose), will my soul instantly leave my mind and body? So to be God is to want to DIE/leave this world!? But I don't want to die, not yet, I'm too young to die, there's still so much more I need and want to experience in this world! Is this my soul making excuses not to leave, or is it my mind who still wants to live? I'm not ready to be God yet if that is the case. I'm satisfied with no more suffering.

Why do we mostly listen to our minds and not to our souls? Why is the mind so convincing? Why is the soul letting itself be so easily ignored? Why is it hard to communicate with the soul? Can my mind speak to my soul? How do I know that I have a soul when I can't see, feel, smell, taste and hear it?

Is 'playing God' not believing what your senses tell you as reality? I have yet to master lucid dreaming, I accept 95% of my dreams as reality even if most make very little logical sense. The other 5%, I refuse to accept because they end up being so cruel and frightening that I tell myself that this can't be possible, this must be a nightmare and I wake myself up from my dream. And when I do manage to die in my dreams, I instantly wake up feeling terrified and glad that I didn't really die. What is reality? Why are schizophrenics considered mentally insane if they see, touch, hear, feel, taste things that 'normal' people can't? And then they're told by psychiatrists that their hallucinations are not real because they are the only individuals who can experience it.

Since I can't stop talking about God at home, my mom decided to read the book with me! :D (My dad is too hard to persuade.) Hopefully she'll feel better too and won't suffer as much in her life anymore and won't blame ME for all the troubles she believes I'm causing her. I'm just disappointed because the French version (she has trouble understanding English) is supposed to contain all 3 books and it's thickness is like half of the 1st book! What gives? It's not even written in dialogue form! I wonder how many translated books are like that, people are not going to get the whole message.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:15 am

hehe of course you have that power - you're god remember!!! :P

On the fear thing... as said earlier - Every moment is an opportunity to rebirth.
No thing to fear here, the constant is change.


????????????????????????????????????
Breathe!!!
All your questions you will answer all in the goodness of experience.


Since I can't stop talking about God at home, my mom decided to read the book with me! :D

:D
That's pretty cool don't you think?
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby karmarider » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:29 am

Jen, beautiful!

Clouded, I agree with Jen. The questions and answers you are coming up with it are your creation. You are creating, deciding, testing, the you you choose to experience yourself as.

Clouded wrote:Since I can't stop talking about God at home, my mom decided to read the book with me!


:)
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby Clouded » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:13 am

Maybe I should also pull out a notepad and start writing to God? :P but I think it'll take me much more than 3 books to complete! :lol: I guess I perceive you guys as more knowledgable than me on this subject, so I ask you all the tough questions because I believe that you understand the world better than I do and your minds could give me a better answer than my mind can think of. I guess I'll know when the time comes, when my soul is ready. Do you guys ever feel like God?
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:19 am

Maybe I should also pull out a notepad and start writing to God? :P but I think it'll take me much more than 3 books to complete! :lol:

Absolutely! You already are writing it!!


I guess I perceive you guys as more knowledgable than me on this subject, so I ask you all the tough questions because I believe that you understand the world better than I do and your minds could give me a better answer than my mind can think of.

The best we can do is to let you know you are always okay. Sure some of us are older and wiser for our experiences, we have just been answering our own questions!! That's all, one step at a time, there are no short cuts, and no one will understand your experiences like you do.

Do you guys ever feel like God?

Absolutely!! especially when folks ask the tricky questions of life, hoping there's a way around living it :lol:

In all seriousness yes, I know I am god, I know I am eternal love and compassion creation energy in motion whenever I let go of the sense of separation. I know it when I breathe out, I know it when I am one with a sunset or a flower or a cloud or a puppy or a sigh or a fart or a volcano or a thunder clap or a mosquito or a raindrop or or a question arises and initiates the answer in experience, I know it in the bubbling of a laugh and in the sweetness of a cry in the night - sometimes my own, ... I know all the power of creation is in me, with me, for me, by me. I know there is no thing really separating you and me or you and me from everything else which is all god, except our perceptions of separation. I know a million years ago and today are one in eternity.

I know that no matter what we experience, or how we perceive it, it is all okay. It is all love finding and experiencing itself being, peeking light, a tiny spark from under the cloak of fear in the whispering of a question, or throwing the cloak off in a TADA!!! reveal of brilliant light in the answer.

You know this too, you know this of yourself and of others, you could not have imagined the question if you didn't already know the answers.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby Clouded » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:08 pm

You must be a very peaceful human being. I hope one day I will perceive life the way you do. :) My issues really seem insignificant to the whole Universe, i'm just a tiny body and sometimes I feel like it is the end of the world. Who am I kidding, right? If we are all ONE, it makes me wonder if human consciousness will be able in the future to transmit information telepathically to other humans and to nature. That would be so awesome! :D
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:08 pm

There's been some great posts here about God. I'd like to share a different perspective. When George Mallory, the mountaineer, was asked why he wanted to climb Everest, he said, "Because it's there." You could interpret that to mean "Because the mountain's there." But you could also interpret that to mean "Because IT--the meaning of life--is there." IT is challenge, learning, growing, overcoming obstacles, risk, triumph, failure. All of these experiences come out of the fact that we are limited creatures. Limited means mortal, weak, and ignorant. It's easy to focus on the painful parts of that situation--death, loss, suffering, frustration, failure. But the wonderful aspects of life are made possible by our limitation: falling in love is only possible because we are not in the state of love all the time, discovery is only possible because we don't know everything, food tastes good because we are in physical bodies that get hungry.

When most people talk of God they mean an entity that is all-powerful, all-seeing, eternal, unlimited, etc. An unlimited entity can't experience falling in love, or eating a perfectly-ripe strawberry, or listening to a beautiful piece of music, or working hard to overcome enormous obstacles and climbing Mount Everest. This is why the universe exists: for the Unlimited to experience limitation. The purpose of the universe is to experience every shade of limitation, from being a quark to an almost-completely enlightened soul. There is no rush to get out of the limitation experience because the One wants to experience all these shades of limitation. Since in reality there is only the One, there is no failure or death. That is all an illusion. Once you have this understanding you can accept what comes your way knowing this is your shade of limitation to experience.

I don't think of myself as God. In my experience that is very dangerous; many people get very confused when they start believing that. I think of everything as God. There is nothing that is not God.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby karmarider » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:56 pm

KathleenBrugger wrote:There's been some great posts here about God. I'd like to share a different perspective.


The word "God" is of course loaded and misleading; I use the word very much in the same way that (I think) you do.

When George Mallory, the mountaineer, was asked why he wanted to climb Everest, he said, "Because it's there." You could interpret that to mean "Because the mountain's there." But you could also interpret that to mean "Because IT--the meaning of life--is there." IT is challenge, learning, growing, overcoming obstacles, risk, triumph, failure. All of these experiences come out of the fact that we are limited creatures. Limited means mortal, weak, and ignorant. It's easy to focus on the painful parts of that situation--death, loss, suffering, frustration, failure. But the wonderful aspects of life are made possible by our limitation: falling in love is only possible because we are not in the state of love all the time, discovery is only possible because we don't know everything, food tastes good because we are in physical bodies that get hungry.


Good point and nicely said.

We can see that many "spiritual" people are actually afraid of words like "limited" and "fear" and so on. The immediate reaction is to point out that we are unlimited and full of love and we are capable of knowing everything and being everything, and eternal. Vastness, Truth, Being. That sounds pretty good, but of course in certain context shuts off a great deal of the world of experience. Limitations and fear bring about gritty experience, which is the whole point of life, and maybe the very thing which spirituality often runs away from.

The whole point of human existence is experience. Not learning--we already know, we only have to remember--but actual and fleeting experience. It is through experience that love becomes a dynamic verb rather than a sterile noun.

When most people talk of God they mean an entity that is all-powerful, all-seeing, eternal, unlimited, etc.


Not to mention probably vengeful, spiteful, stern, judgmental, irrational...

An unlimited entity can't experience falling in love, or eating a perfectly-ripe strawberry, or listening to a beautiful piece of music, or working hard to overcome enormous obstacles and climbing Mount Everest. This is why the universe exists: for the Unlimited to experience limitation. The purpose of the universe is to experience every shade of limitation, from being a quark to an almost-completely enlightened soul. There is no rush to get out of the limitation experience because the One wants to experience all these shades of limitation. Since in reality there is only the One, there is no failure or death. That is all an illusion. Once you have this understanding you can accept what comes your way knowing this is your shade of limitation to experience.


Beautifully said. The CWG agrees with you. Human life is our moment to moment, grateful celebration of the opportunity to experience, so that you may choose and experience who you really are. Which we all already do anyway. There's no suffering if we're aware of it.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:19 pm

Human life is our moment to moment, grateful celebration of the opportunity to experience, so that you may choose and experience who you really are.

Beautiful.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:45 pm

I've got some questions about Conversations with God. It has been many years since I read it, but one of the things I remember is that the book seemed to glorify death, and it seems to me that this is troubling Clouded. Clouded wrote:

If experiencing death brings so much peace, joy and clarity then why do we get to experience life when it is not as perfect?...[Not to mention the thread title]
If I train my mind to believe I'm God by thinking Godly thoughts and then one glorious day, I get some epiphany that I really AM God (which finally fulfills my soul's purpose), will my soul instantly leave my mind and body? So to be God is to want to DIE/leave this world!? But I don't want to die, not yet, I'm too young to die, there's still so much more I need and want to experience in this world!


I found some CWG quotes online that are examples for me of Walsch/God stating that death is better than life:

Yet what if I told you that what you call “death” is the greatest thing that could happen to anyone—what then? (CWG Book 2, p. 36)

The mistakes Hitler made did no harm or damage to those whose deaths he caused. Those souls were released from their earthly bondage, like butterflies emerging from a cocoon.
(CWG Book 2, p. 42)

So the first thing you have to understand—as I’ve already explained to you—is that Hitler didn’t hurt anyone. In a sense, he didn’t inflict suffering, he ended it. (CWG Book 2, p. 56)

I don 't understand this. It sounds to me as if Walsch is saying Hitler did the Jews a favor, and that life is only suffering. This seems the complete opposite of what karmarider wrote about an earlier post of mine where I said I think the whole point of the universe is to experience limitation:
The CWG agrees with you. Human life is our moment to moment, grateful celebration of the opportunity to experience, so that you may choose and experience who you really are. Which we all already do anyway. There's no suffering if we're aware of it.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby karmarider » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:48 am

Good points, Kathleen.

All of these people from whom I've taken ideas--Tolle, de Mello, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Sherman, many others--are people who have given me just ideas. It has been up to me to take the ideas which serve me, leave alone the ones which don't, and put everything to the test of experience. And so I don't take everything in from the CWG. I like the first book. I've only browsed through the others.

And so when it comes to some of the esoteric ideas in the CWG and spirituality in general, I see it both ways. I am a practical-minded person and the way to clarity is practical. There is no need for spiritual delusions. And yet there are things which I see which I cannot explain why I see them the way I do. I'm okay with that--the paradigm in my head is helpful to me. Just as your seeing that limitation is actually a beautiful thing, and not something to be afraid of. And so I stay with the paradigm. Until it no longer serves me.

When I read (heard) the passages on death, I wondered if this message was a dangerous message for people who might be suicidal. I don't know.

The way I see it, those passages have helped me release my fear of my inevitable death, and the fear of life, and has helped me put the death of loved ones in context. So I don't see it as a glorification of death. Neither do I see it as an invitation to die. But I can see the viewpoint which might interpret it in that way.

If you accept the paradigm that you are an eternal soul, an individuated part of Oneness (God), and you choose to incarnate as a human being to create and experience you, then death is a glorious transition in this process.

If you don't accept that paradigm, then life is to be enjoyed for its glorious experiences and death is a unknown mystery.

Either way, the purpose of life is experience, made glorious by limitation and fear. That's how I see it.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:54 am

Clouded said: You must be a very peaceful human being. I hope one day I will perceive life the way you do. :)

Clouded be aware of not awarding false projections onto others, I am peaceful - sometimes, I am powerful - sometimes, I am weak - sometimes, I am angry - sometimes, I am petty - sometimes, I am even mean - sometimes, I am love - more often than not these days, sometimes I am fearful when I'm in the process of unravelling a question that will allow light to shine on it, a lot of the time I am in wonder and joy with the world, I am all the things that you are, just by individuation. I've just shone the light on more answers to my questions because I'm older, I've seen and taken the opportunities to explore the darkness and find the light.

Clouded said: My issues really seem insignificant to the whole Universe, i'm just a tiny body and sometimes I feel like it is the end of the world. Who am I kidding, right?

Clouded your 'world' is your experience of the whole Universe, if an experience fills up your whole world then it fills up your whole world, and that's okay too. They are, and you are, a precious part of the awareness of all creation in motion; and no one and no thing is 'insignificant to the whole Universe'. It may be that in time your perspective widens out so that your view of things encompass - allow room in love - for other considerations / aspects of the situation.

When you feel overwhelmed LOVE YOURSELF!! Love your self as you would when you remember you are god - shine your light. Love others as you would when you remember you are god. Love is patient, love is kind, love bears (bad) things and believes (good) things of self and others, sometimes the 'god' in me has gotten me into the deepest shit, absolutely buried in it, just so I could find my way out of it, and the only way to find my way out of it, was to light the path with love - for self and other/s.

Clouded said: If we are all ONE, it makes me wonder if human consciousness will be able in the future to transmit information telepathically to other humans and to nature. That would be so awesome! :D

Clouded, tell me, do you feel the love that flows between you and me? Do you 'know' it, 'feel' it, understand it (merely means stand within/under it) - do you in spirit accept and return it?
We transmit information telepathically to other humans and to nature all the time. Sometimes our wires even get crossed and we mix up our messages :)
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:01 am

I realise this has 'moved on' while I've been sleeping... there's something very lovely about that. That we are altogether god, each experiencing what we know, what we don't, what we notice, what we don't, expressing our perspectives from where we stand under a thing.

Kathleen said: I don't think of myself as God. In my experience that is very dangerous; many people get very confused when they start believing that. I think of everything as God. There is nothing that is not God.

It stands to reason if everything is god, and there is nothing that is not god, then you too are god.

What is it that is 'dangerous', in your experience, about acknowledging that?

Kathleen said: When most people talk of God they mean an entity that is all-powerful, all-seeing, eternal, unlimited, etc. An unlimited entity can't experience falling in love, or eating a perfectly-ripe strawberry, or listening to a beautiful piece of music, or working hard to overcome enormous obstacles and climbing Mount Everest. This is why the universe exists: for the Unlimited to experience limitation.

'Most people' is an assumption / presumption / perspective.

I'm with you that god is everything, therefore there are no limitations on our collective experience / perspective. And the 'boundaries' of the universe, are also a limitation imposed by 'our' current perspective - standing under.

The 'limitations' are voluntary - you limit what you choose to experience, in perspective / individuation, not what another is allowed to experience, therefore the limitations are voluntary, and so not a limitation at all. Having chosen to experience being human I can't spread wings I don't have and fly like the little parrot that's sitting on my shoulders can, he has limitations that frustrate him too, but we are still both god - he forgets sometimes, and so do I.

The notion of Namaste - the god in me honours (recognises, holds precious) the god in you - it's a simple but incredibly powerful reminder of our oneness, and at the same time in respect for our experience of separateness.

On those quotes from CWG above, hmm - can I start with saying I do understand the asking, and have experienced asking similar questions, and in part I have shined, or had shined, the light of love on them. The things about physical death truly is that there is no thing to fear, but the fear itself. And when the fear of death diminishes so too does the fear of life. When one understands the limitation of our experiential opportunities they become immensely precious. Most people (hahaha... my presumption / assumption from my perception/perspective) who have experienced the white light / nde experience completely lose both the fear of death and the fear of life and embrace more life experiencing opportunities. When you realise that this moment will never come again, this moment in all its gory glory is precious beyond ignoring or abdicating being with and in it fully.

But at the same time, death is merely closing one door and opening another. As much as falsities have grown up in and around what 'god' is, so too societies and cultures have made up and reinforced controlling fables about life and death.

Since my own nde I cry at funerals in a very strange mix of knowing I will miss the physical opportunities to relate with the person who has passed on, (but not completely because the love remains) and from knowing I will experience the journey from expectation to reality in terms of anything and everything I future-forward projected (as you noticed in your own book) creating suffering over things that were not real, just 'expected' and making that journey of grief to reconciliation;

and also, and only since my own nde, tears for me in a bitter-sweet homesick sort of a way for the purity of experiencing being love collapsed and being all knowing with no thing, no perspective blinded cloaked by me, from me. It's a honesty that I acknowledge that I am still here - and I don't mean that in any desire to end my life, or even not to appreciate it, it's not that at all. It's probably even a conscious re-acknowledging of my choice to come into form and limitation and experience all the separate nuances of that. Like any thing it is both better/worse than anyone else can imagine from outside of it.

Life is precious, incredibly so, even more so since I realised what a precious and wonderful and tiny drop in all eternity it is.

So my take on the quotes you posted----
Yet what if I told you that what you call “death” is the greatest thing that could happen to anyone—what then? (CWG Book 2, p. 36)

This in context must have been in reply to a presuming of what death is and entails - likely by the answer, balancing perspective with the opposite notion - that death is the worst thing that could happen to anyone. Therefore, what if I told you what you call 'death' is the greatest thing that could happen to anyone - what then?
The worst /best is not the answer - the 'what then?' is the answer. The presumption of ' death being the worst thing' may / may not be influencing one's perspective of life. This is balanced in equilibrium by the possibility of death being the 'best thing' - then what? What will you do with the opportunity that is your life if you stop living in fear of death? What would happen if you drop the excuses raised in fear of death to not be all that you truly are, and express all that you are capable of expressing in love, over fear?

Fear of death is a self imposed limitation. That's all it says to me, and I agree with that. All things in imagination are a tiny sliver of the reality of it.

I found some CWG quotes online that are examples for me of Walsch/God stating that death is better than life:

There is no better/worse - only by perspective of experience do we line up on one or the other side of the teeter-totter. So what you are really saying is you viewed his words through your lens of perspective and concluded what he is saying - it's what you are interpreting. In equilibrium all things collapse into perfection.
glorify death
is balanced by glorifying life.
Fearing death is fearing life.

The mistakes Hitler made did no harm or damage to those whose deaths he caused. Those souls were released from their earthly bondage, like butterflies emerging from a cocoon.
(CWG Book 2, p. 42)

So the first thing you have to understand—as I’ve already explained to you—is that Hitler didn’t hurt anyone. In a sense, he didn’t inflict suffering, he ended it. (CWG Book 2, p. 56)

Taking quotes out of context and using them in isolation to support perspective is ... well just is, I guess :wink:

It goes to what Karmarider said about whether you think the human experience is the be all and end all, or just a part of the journey. But, from my perspective we can't really make points one way or the other with any authenticity without the full context of that part of the 'discussion' about it.

The 'butterflies emerging from a cocoon' is real and known for me, in my experiential perspective, it's a wonder reminder in nature that all things change form.

It's also interesting and totally an offshoot from this discussion, that Elisabeth Kubler Ross' work in exploring death and grieving and sharing that with others was 'ignited' to do so, to spend her life in the experiences that she did and sharing her wisdom with others - by noticing that in one of the gas chambers children who were 'supposedly' just aware that they were going for a shower, drew pictures of butterflies on the wall and wrote their names in them. It so 'shocked' her it caused her to ask the questions - why? how?

See, there are many facets to all things,some known to us, others unknown to us, as you already know Kathleen.

I don't see that any person will be more or less likely to end their own life when they understand that true life is eternal, they 'may' use it as a supporting piece of rhetoric to strengthen the arguments of their perceiving / expressing of living life.
Those I know who have taken their own lives did so for a variety of 'reasoning', all centred around their perspective of life in individuation and their capacity to respond to/within the limitations and experiences of it.

Elements of us, of all creation, are born, changed and wither away, some every nanosecond and others once in a millennium.

In my experiential perspective and absolutely humbly I view our bodies like a cloak over us - a wonderful ever changing cloak, a super-heroes cloak at times with more powers than we imagine, a cloak that can surround and support our selves and others in warmth and love and joy, and a pauper's cloak at times barely keeping out the winter chills when our love becomes shallow and threadbare, and at other times a heavy, wet, clumsy, clunky cloak getting in the way of us being all that we really are.

In equilibrium, collapsing all of the elements of it, a wonder-ful cloak.
But a cloak, not the all of us.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby Clouded » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:59 am

KathleenBrugger I think you're right about the Unlimited wanting to experience limitation! Your statement reminded me of this quote: "If the world existed in perfect condition, your life process of Self creation would be terminated. It would end...And God’s career would end tomorrow were there no more problems!" :D

I don't want to be God, not right now. I want to feel like God in the sense that I want to stop comparing myself to people and experiencing a 'lack' of something. Isn't that the starting point of most struggles? I'm tired of feeling inferior/less succesful than others. I want to stop thinking of myself as an individual (though I highly doubt this is ever going to happen to me). If I thought of myself as everything (as life), then I wouldn't have to compare myself anymore because I AM everything, I AM everyone, I have everything I ever wanted and more!

Holy cow! Walsh/God said that about Hitler!? So Hitler was a savior? Brain cannot compute.

smiileyjen101, i'll try to stop my black and white thinking habit. I always forget that nothing is permanent. Hmm, I wonder if I can ever fall in love with life as I would with an individual being. I don't really 'feel' the love, I feel plain, but I feel that something cares about me because I'm still here, aware of my reality. Something wants me to exist and I am grateful to them for allowing me to exist and experience this life. They could just get rid of me permanently if they didn't want me here, they have the power to do that.
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Re: Why be born in the first place?

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:14 pm

What I see in many spiritual practices is the implication that life sucks. The goal is to get out. (There's a gospel song that says, "I'm going to have the time of my life when my life is over.") From my point of view life is an amazing gift. Growing in awareness, in consciousness, allows me to experience that gift more fully. I want to learn to love it all, to embrace it all, and to share this love with others. It seems to me there is so much more we can experience together in this material plane--finding out how to live in peace and harmony with all creatures--and there's all the time in the universe to do it--so why be in a hurry to get out?

Clouded, one of the things I like about my view of God is that there is no waste, there is no failure, there is no lesser life. All lives are equally important in the fulfillment of experiencing limitation. There is suffering when you don't know who you are, and this can be lessened when you begin to remember, but the forgetting is as much a part of the Game as the remembering.
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
http://kathleenbrugger.blogspot.com/
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