Can there be two awarenesses ?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat May 10, 2014 11:59 am

As awareness is formless, can there be a second awareness ? Because if there is a second awareness, it means that awareness itself can be 'counted' hence formless becomes a form itself ... which is contradictory ...

Awareness is like space, it is emptiness, nothingness, but it contains all forms ... being itself formless and timeless ... and there cannot be two 'spaces' ...

Moreover it is a fact that you can never experience another awareness than 'yours' ... (which in fact is not 'yours' at all, as being unique can 'belong' to no body) ...

Now imagine such a second awareness would exist, it would be totally 'unknowable' to you ... and even if you would experience this other awareness, it would still be 'you' in this new awareness, you, the formless, manifested in another form ...

So the idea that another awareness could exist is an absurdity created by conditioned thought ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Filander » Sun May 11, 2014 1:33 am

How about (at least) two distinct levels of awareness?

As I sit here typing, awareness is focused almost entirely on this ego. Awareness takes on form and identity, as water takes on the shape of the container that holds it.

Teachers like ET habitually refer to the non-identified state as formless. I think this is relatively true, but not absolutely true - non-ego awareness has a deeper and more subtle level of form. However, I also understand why the teachers do not enter into such speculation. They have a job to do, many of the target audience have a hard enough time already. Throwing extra metaphysics into the mix would be a foolishly distracting thing to do.

Phil2 wrote:Now imagine such a second awareness would exist, it would be totally 'unknowable' to you ... and even if you would experience this other awareness, it would still be 'you' in this new awareness, you, the formless, manifested in another form ...

Yes, we can say it is logically impossible to experience another awareness, since, by definition, it would then be our awareness.

There may be indirect ways of verifying the existence of other types or levels of awareness though. For example, by accessing memories that were recorded in this brain, but not by this ego.
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun May 11, 2014 9:48 am

Filander wrote:There may be indirect ways of verifying the existence of other types or levels of awareness though. For example, by accessing memories that were recorded in this brain, but not by this ego.



Do you mean some kind of memory which would not be 'personal' ie. not part of my 'personal' life story ... like the 'collective unconscious' referred to by Carl Jung ?

??

In Buddhism they speak of karma, which is accumulated memories resulting from our actions from our past existences which influence our current 'incarnation' ... in Hindu traditions they also refer to 'sanskaras' which are the imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience in this or previous lives ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Filander » Mon May 12, 2014 3:00 am

Phil2 wrote:Do you mean some kind of memory which would not be 'personal' ie. not part of my 'personal' life story

Yes.

Phil2 wrote:... like the 'collective unconscious' referred to by Carl Jung ?

Maybe. Characters in dreams and visionary states can seem as independent as anyone encountered while awake.

I was thinking of memories from dreams, presented to an identity different to the waker's, and 3rd person perspective dreams (do gamers like me have more of this type?) Also, those sometimes left behind by altered states: Hypnotic, hypnogogic, somnambulistic, drug induced...

Phil2 wrote:in Hindu traditions they also refer to 'sanskaras' which are the imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience in this or previous lives ...

I had not thought of that. If I believed I could detect such imprints in myself I might count them too.
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Filander » Mon May 12, 2014 9:43 am

Was thinking about the OP, and Daniel Denett's arguments about consciousness. I find the examples and research he cites fascinating.

If he were integrated enough, I think he would have to admit he is missing something vital, or come out of the closet as an automaton... But one of the less contentious implications, that ego-identity emerges from neurological trickery, works for me, fits in with other models I like.

"I" observe an itch in "my left ear." Decide to scratch it. Scratch it with "my left hand."

But neuroscience strongly suggests: By the time the itch registers as a feature of "my consciousness", the decision to scratch has already been made and executed.

A few microseconds later, the process is claimed ("I make the decisions round here"). And this kind of retrospective cherry picking is going on all the time. Kind of hammers home ET's insistence that we cannot be fully present while identifying with the ego.

Back to the OP. I think there are multiple awarenesses at work behind the ego, and a lot of merging, dividing, and negotiating going on. Multiple personality disorder is not a disorder because there are more than one. It is a disorder because they are not working together, to keep the smoke and mirror act ("just me") running smoothly.
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Phil2 » Mon May 12, 2014 10:29 am

Filander wrote:
Back to the OP. I think there are multiple awarenesses at work behind the ego, and a lot of merging, dividing, and negotiating going on. Multiple personality disorder is not a disorder because there are more than one.


What does it mean multiple personalities ? You can only have one personality at a time, what happens is that the influences coming from your mind (thought) might change in time and that different personalities might appear successively ...

This is like multi-tasking computers (which most computers are nowadays), apparently they do many things at the same time, but in fact at any single moment they can only do one and only one operation in their CPU, but as they operate very fast (millions of operations per second or MIPS), computers switch very fast from one task to another, giving the impression that they perform tasks simultaneously ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Filander » Mon May 12, 2014 10:09 pm

Phil2 wrote:You can only have one personality at a time

Would prefer to say, one personality is dominant at a time. "Sub-personality" is a term used in some psychological models. "Gestalt" too. I think Fritz Perls used them both. Arthur Koestler coined the term "holon" in The Ghost in the Machine.

In the book Monsters and Magical Sticks by Steven Heller, the author tries using hypnotic tricks, to guide the reader into noticing internal shifts between "conscious systems" (another equivalent term?)

Phil2 wrote:This is like multi-tasking computers (which most computers are nowadays), apparently they do many things at the same time, but in fact at any single moment they can only do one and only one operation in their CPU

I had an Amiga in the 80's. They could truly multitask. Good old days.
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Re: Can there be two awarenesses ?

Postby Phil2 » Mon May 12, 2014 10:16 pm

Filander wrote:
Phil2 wrote:This is like multi-tasking computers (which most computers are nowadays), apparently they do many things at the same time, but in fact at any single moment they can only do one and only one operation in their CPU

I had an Amiga in the 80's. They could truly multitask. Good old days.


lol ... this was not the case of the Apple II which I bought in 1981, nor with other CPM machines at that time ... not even of the first IBM PC running MS-DOS in 1983 ...

:-)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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