All are realized already ...

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 27, 2014 5:54 pm

Following Runstrails request to not post answers 'off-topic' in her thread Re: This I know I post here an answer to Dijmart about Ramana Maharshi statements on the fact that all people are already realized:

dijmart wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
dijmart wrote:I know Ramana wouldn't call someone who still has a destructive ego lingering self realized.
Just my 2 cents


No this is not correct, Ramana said many times that for him ALL people were already realized ... because they were already the Self ... even if they didn't know it ...

A fact remains a fact, even if you don't know it ...


Hmm, I thought Ramana said we are all the Self, not we are all self realized, the self realized I thought were then called a jnani. Actually, he speaks of the ignorant, so whom would that be then?

My source is "be are you are" the teachings of ramana maharshi.


Ramana said quite often that no one was ignorant, because everyone knows that he is ... hence all people are realized ...

Personally my reference is a book called "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" which is a collection of talks from 1935 to 1939, composed by Swami Ramananda Sarasvati and published in 1963 in Ramana's ashram in Tiruvannamalai (I have personally a French translation of those talks).

As you seem interested, I translate here some of those talks about realization:


Ramana Maharshi wrote:
from talk 119 : "There is no greater mystery than the fact that we look for Reality when we are this Reality ... and this happens right now and here."

from talk 297: Q: "How can I realize the Self ?"
RM: "Self is already realized. Everyone should know this elementary principle."

from talk 384: Q: "But then what is realization ?"
RM: " Realization consists to get rid of the illusion to believe that you are not realized."

from talk 388: RM: "What is there to do ? Reality is unique. Therefore realization is an illusion ... Realize that you are present here and now. In fact realization is nothing new, it has always been."

from talk 413: RM: "To whom do you think the master speaks ? Does he see someone separated from the Self ? Does the master consider the disciple different from himself ? The ignorance of the disciple abides in this that he does not know that all are realized. Can anyone live separated from the Self ?




The fact that realization is a reality here and now settles once for all the questions about knowing if one is realized or not ... everyone is already realized because no one can be outside the Self ... or call it formless awareness ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Webwanderer » Tue May 27, 2014 6:12 pm

Sounds like apples and oranges to me - or a debate over definitions. Self realization it seems, is the simple awareness that I am. It is a consciousness of self. Thus everyone is realized because they have a sense of self. It's an elementary principle.

The rest of the story is that most people's sense of self is linked as much with thought processes and constructs as it is with simple beingness. So awakening to an extent, is the realization of the distinction between thought identification and clear awareness in being.

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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 27, 2014 9:22 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Sounds like apples and oranges to me - or a debate over definitions. Self realization it seems, is the simple awareness that I am. It is a consciousness of self. Thus everyone is realized because they have a sense of self. It's an elementary principle.


Yes, this is what RM says "Everyone should know this elementary principle".
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby runstrails » Tue May 27, 2014 10:32 pm

Yup.
We are all self-realized--but unfortunately figuring it out can take a lifetime. If only it was taught in elementary schools. Maybe some day.
On the other hand, when you actually realize this, it's so simple and such a basic realization that you just have to laugh and shake your head. It's so darn obvious (in retrospect, of course).
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Onceler » Tue May 27, 2014 11:06 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable? How does he suggest one comes to these realizations?
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Onceler » Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 pm

runstrails wrote:Yup.
We are all self-realized--but unfortunately figuring it out can take a lifetime. If only it was taught in elementary schools. Maybe some day.
On the other hand, when you actually realize this, it's so simple and such a basic realization that you just have to laugh and shake your head. It's so darn obvious (in retrospect, of course).


I think I know what you mean, Runstrails. Sometimes it's like a distant, haunting memory or emotion that you had when you were a child. Sometimes it seems so obvious. For me there is not a consistent or permanent state of this awareness, but I can access it quickly with focused attention.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby runstrails » Wed May 28, 2014 12:16 am

Onceler wrote: I think I know what you mean, Runstrails. Sometimes it's like a distant, haunting memory or emotion that you had when you were a child. Sometimes it seems so obvious. For me there is not a consistent or permanent state of this awareness, but I can access it quickly with focused attention.


Very interesting, Onceler. A lot of my self inquiry was knowledge-based and so that clear knowledge (that I am self-aware reality) is always there now. Sometimes it gets veiled by egoic nonsense but that knowledge or insight is never far from the foreground. So even if I'm not constantly in a state of 'presence', the knowledge (that I am aware-reality and not the small self) is always present. I also do the focused attention bit that you are talking about to become 'present'. So it's both experiential and knowledge based. Hope that makes some sense!
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 1:47 am

runstrails wrote:Yup.
We are all self-realized--but unfortunately figuring it out can take a lifetime. If only it was taught in elementary schools. Maybe some day.
On the other hand, when you actually realize this, it's so simple and such a basic realization that you just have to laugh and shake your head. It's so darn obvious (in retrospect, of course).


This is partially what I was talking about, how can all be self-realized, if some don't know or haven't figured it out? I understand that we are all the Self really, but if you haven't realized it, think you are just the mind/body and are completely 100% driven by ego, then how can you say all are self-realized? Something is not computing here, I'm not getting it.

Onceler wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable? How does he suggest one comes to these realizations?


Yes, yes he did! Which leads me to say, why would he do this if no one is ignorant and all are self realized already. It doesn't make sense!
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby runstrails » Wed May 28, 2014 2:05 am

I think you're right Dij. We are all the Self---but only a few have attained this (self) realization. Seems goofy doesn't it. It should be taught in kindergarten. Kids would 'get it' so easily.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 2:20 am

runstrails wrote:I think you're right Dij. We are all the Self---but only a few have attained this (self) realization. Seems goofy doesn't it. It should be taught in kindergarten. Kids would 'get it' so easily.


Like I said in the other thread RT, if your definition is truly what self realization means/IS, then I just need to assimilate this sometimes nasty :twisted: ego. :lol:

Perhaps it WILL take a lifetime???
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Onceler » Wed May 28, 2014 2:38 am

dijmart wrote:
runstrails wrote:I think you're right Dij. We are all the Self---but only a few have attained this (self) realization. Seems goofy doesn't it. It should be taught in kindergarten. Kids would 'get it' so easily.


Like I said in the other thread RT, if your definition is truly what self realization means/IS, then I just need to assimilate this sometimes nasty :twisted: ego. :lol:

Perhaps it WILL take a lifetime???


Make peace with the nasty ego.....why else would we go on forums?
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 2:54 am

Onceler wrote:
dijmart wrote:
runstrails wrote:I think you're right Dij. We are all the Self---but only a few have attained this (self) realization. Seems goofy doesn't it. It should be taught in kindergarten. Kids would 'get it' so easily.


Like I said in the other thread RT, if your definition is truly what self realization means/IS, then I just need to assimilate this sometimes nasty :twisted: ego. :lol:

Perhaps it WILL take a lifetime???


Make peace with the nasty ego.....why else would we go on forums?


I hear ya :wink: It is what it is.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby runstrails » Wed May 28, 2014 3:03 am

Dij wrote: Like I said in the other thread RT, if your definition is truly what self realization means/IS, then I just need to assimilate this sometimes nasty :twisted: ego. :lol:

Perhaps it WILL take a lifetime???


Well take heart, Dij---Ramana spent 7 years in a cave assimilating after his self-realization. But we have the internet at least :wink:.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 3:27 am

runstrails wrote:
Dij wrote: Like I said in the other thread RT, if your definition is truly what self realization means/IS, then I just need to assimilate this sometimes nasty :twisted: ego. :lol:

Perhaps it WILL take a lifetime???


Well take heart, Dij---Ramana spent 7 years in a cave assimilating after his self-realization.


:lol: I forgot about that! Then, in later years he told people it wasn't necessary to leave their lives and duties, it could be done anywhere. I think I see what you mean by assimilate now. Reminds me of how Nisargadatta took long night time walks with his brother every night talking about consciousness, ect., long before he started holding satsangs in his home or spoke in the book, "I am that". Maybe he to was assimilating during those years.

But we have the internet at least :wink:.


I don't know if that's good or bad sometimes.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Wed May 28, 2014 9:06 am

dijmart wrote:
Onceler wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable? How does he suggest one comes to these realizations?


Yes, yes he did! Which leads me to say, why would he do this if no one is ignorant and all are self realized already. It doesn't make sense!


Don't forget that for RM there was no 'doer' ... he was not 'teaching' at all, not 'doing', as for him no one was separate from the Self, who would he teach to ? Moreover he always said that the best teaching was silence ... more than often he just remained silent when asked questions, and many reported that this silence, this very presence, was indeed very 'illuminating' ...
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