All are realized already ...

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Wed May 28, 2014 9:10 am

dijmart wrote:
But we have the internet at least :wink:.


I don't know if that's good or bad sometimes.


It is 'what is' ...

... qualifying 'good' or 'bad' is a resistance to 'what is' ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am

Onceler wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable?


Yes Ramana used to say that the self inquiry "Who am I ?" was the 'sword' that would destroy ignorance ...

How does he suggest one comes to these realizations?


RM considered that all are already 'realized', all that needs to be done is to get rid of the false identities created by conditioned thought ... ie. the illusion of ego ... which is in fact not different of what Eckhart says ... just Eckhart uses the word 'formless' instead of Self ...

RM often said there was nothing to 'DO', just "Stay quiet and know that you are" ... abide as the Self ... as "I am" ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Onceler » Wed May 28, 2014 11:50 am

Phil2 wrote:
Onceler wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable?


Yes Ramana used to say that the self inquiry "Who am I ?" was the 'sword' that would destroy ignorance ...


John Sherman was inspired by Ramana to come up with his own inquiry.....'how does it feel to be me?', while he was in prison. He believes changing the pronoun from I to me gives a more direct feeling and sense of self.....less abstraction. He would agree that there is no 'doing' after this inquiry, just repeating the question as it occurs to do so. He doesn't talk about ego, but fear of life, and that this inquiry releases the fear of life allowing our psychology to change. I have experienced many positive changes as a result of this inquiry, and it continues to unfold.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Wed May 28, 2014 12:05 pm

Onceler wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Onceler wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ramana stress the self inquiry method of 'I am'. Do you know about this and could you say more? Have you found self inquiry valuable?


Yes Ramana used to say that the self inquiry "Who am I ?" was the 'sword' that would destroy ignorance ...


John Sherman was inspired by Ramana to come up with his own inquiry.....'how does it feel to be me?', while he was in prison. He believes changing the pronoun from I to me gives a more direct feeling and sense of self.....less abstraction. He would agree that there is no 'doing' after this inquiry, just repeating the question as it occurs to do so. He doesn't talk about ego, but fear of life, and that this inquiry releases the fear of life allowing our psychology to change. I have experienced many positive changes as a result of this inquiry, and it continues to unfold.


Well yes, also Eckhart Tolle had a similar experience when he 'awakened', he relates this in his book PON I think: he was very depressive and suffered a lot when he was 29 in London, and one night he thought "I cannot live with myself anymore" ... then he thought: "Who is this "I" that cannot live with "myself" ... am I two ?" ... and this made him comprehend suddenly that he was not this suffering "me" ... that he was the awareness seeing/experiencing those 'forms' identified with a 'suffering me' ... there has been kind of sudden 'loss of identity', a 'collapse' of ego ... which is what awakening is about ...
Last edited by Phil2 on Wed May 28, 2014 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 4:14 pm

Phil you said this-
Ramana said quite often that no one was ignorant


Then you said this-
Phil2 wrote:Yes Ramana used to say that the self inquiry "Who am I ?" was the 'sword' that would destroy ignorance ...


Which is it? If no one is ignorant, then why the need for a sword to destroy ignorance? These statement contradict each other.

By ignorant, I have been referring to the false identity/ego.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Phil2 » Wed May 28, 2014 4:47 pm

dijmart wrote:
Which is it? If no one is ignorant, then why the need for a sword to destroy ignorance? These statement contradict each other.

By ignorant, I have been referring to the false identity/ego.


Right, it depends to which fact you are considering ignorance ... no one is ignorant that he is, of his own existence ... but some are ignorant of their true nature, and identify themselves with what they are not, ie. ego (as body/mind) ... in this case the inquiry "Who am I ?" can destroy this erroneous identity ...

Also it must be considered that from the point of view of Ramana, he does not see others as separate, so no one can be ignorant ... for Ramana the world appears like a dream, he knows that others appearing in the dream are not separate from the dreamer (ie. the Self/Atman), so it would be non-sensical to qualify those 'forms' as ignorant ... they are not separate from the Self ... just forms appearing in the space of Self, the formless ...

Truth is quite often paradoxical because it depends if the expression of the truth refers to the relative (world of forms) or to the absolute (formless) ...

For example it can be said that the world is real (as relative forms) but also illusory (from the absolute point of view of the formless). This is why discussions on spirituality often lead to all kinds of sterile discussions and even conflictual points of view (see all the animated theological debates in all religions, even in Buddhism and Advaita different 'schools' do not agree). Better not enter in those sterile and endless discussions ...
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby dijmart » Wed May 28, 2014 6:04 pm

Phil2 wrote:
dijmart wrote:
Which is it? If no one is ignorant, then why the need for a sword to destroy ignorance? These statement contradict each other.

By ignorant, I have been referring to the false identity/ego.


Right, it depends to which fact you are considering ignorance ... no one is ignorant that he is, of his own existence ... but some are ignorant of their true nature, and identify themselves with what they are not, ie. ego (as body/mind) ... in this case the inquiry "Who am I ?" can destroy this erroneous identity ...

Also it must be considered that from the point of view of Ramana, he does not see others as separate, so no one can be ignorant ... for Ramana the world appears like a dream, he knows that others appearing in the dream are not separate from the dreamer (ie. the Self/Atman), so it would be non-sensical to qualify those 'forms' as ignorant ... they are not separate from the Self ... just forms appearing in the space of Self, the formless ...

Truth is quite often paradoxical because it depends if the expression of the truth refers to the relative (world of forms) or to the absolute (formless) ...

For example it can be said that the world is real (as relative forms) but also illusory (from the absolute point of view of the formless). This is why discussions on spirituality often lead to all kinds of sterile discussions and even conflictual points of view (see all the animated theological debates in all religions, even in Buddhism and Advaita different 'schools' do not agree). Better not enter in those sterile and endless discussions ...


I agree, we were just going around and around for no reason really. Some things are just better understood if you know if they're being said from the relative or absolute view. Sometimes that makes all the difference. Perhaps I didn't clarify myself also as to what point of view I was referring as well.
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Re: All are realized already ...

Postby Sighclone » Wed May 28, 2014 6:55 pm

When we think of RM, we think of a man with nothing, not even any clothes to speak of. In reality, he was nurtured by a spiritual community for his entire life. He enjoyed the immense luxury of being able to sit for years in meditation, saying nothing, being fed and bathed, etc. He enjoyed a luxury I certainly do not have. If he did not feel like meeting with anyone, he could just hide out in the cave. Of course, I love RM, he served the world in many profound ways, and his writings and presence still grace us today. But Arunachala and Tiruvanamali were very unusual.

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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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