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Re: Where are you ?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:02 am
by Phil2
Phil2 wrote:What Einstein did not understand then, is that consciousness is much more than 'looking' at something (the physical senses) ... consciousness is the space in which all things appear, and we are this space itself ... which is formless ... unmanifested ...

It is exactly like when dreaming, the dreamer is the space in which all forms of the dream appear ... but the dreamer himself is unmanifested in the dream ... he never appears ...


So going into this idea of the dream, in our dream we also have a body (a 'dreamed body') which moves around, right ? what would be the point to try to discover the nature of the dreamer by examining the structure of the brain of our dreamed body ? We can never find the dreamer in any dreamed form, simply because the dreamer is unmanifested in the dream ... you could investigate as much as you want in the forms of the dream, nowhere will you find the dreamer ... and nowhere will you find an 'explanation' for the images perceived in the dream ... simply the dream cannot be explained ... because it arises from consciousness itself, and that there is no explanation for consciousness, as consciousness itself explains (and contains) all things of the universe ... and is itself empty ... unmanifested ... formless ...

There can be no 'explanation' for consciousness.

Consciousness IS.

This is the only fact we can be totally sure of ... all the rest might be illusion ... a dream ...

Re: Where are you ?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:41 pm
by Ralph
Phil2 wrote:So going into this idea of the dream, in our dream we also have a body (a 'dreamed body') which moves around, right ? what would be the point to try to discover the nature of the dreamer by examining the structure of the brain of our dreamed body ? We can never find the dreamer in any dreamed form, simply because the dreamer is unmanifested in the dream ... you could investigate as much as you want in the forms of the dream, nowhere will you find the dreamer ... and nowhere will you find an 'explanation' for the images perceived in the dream ... simply the dream cannot be explained ... because it arises from consciousness itself, and that there is no explanation for consciousness, as consciousness itself explains (and contains) all things of the universe ... and is itself empty ... unmanifested ... formless ...


Yes, ... and so it is in the waking state as well.
In the dream state, there is a you to wake up from and see that it was a dream but in the waking state there appears to be no you to wake up from so we remain in this state not knowing our true nature until there is a strong desire to discover one's true Self and this can only be done by self inquiry (who am I) .

Re: Where are you ?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:56 pm
by ashley72
Phil2 wrote:
Roger Penrose wrote:"There is a current view that consciousness is something which arises from some complicated computation. So we have our computers, and people think that because they can do things amazingly fast, and they can calculate very quickly, and they can play chess extremely well, that they are superior to us even, and it is only some complicated aspect of this computational activity that somehow consciousness arises from that. Now my view is quite different from this. I think there is a lot of computational activity going on in the brain, but this is basically unconscious. So consciousness seems to me to be something quite different."


Computation is only one ingredient of Consciousness, the other crucial ingredient is of course FEEDBACK. Is Penrose saying that feedback is not enough for a system to be conscious of itself?

Feedback is the source of "soul" in any system be it a stampeding herd of frightened bulls, or a thermostatically controlled furnace. Feedback is what causes a system to react either destructively, constructively or harmoniously towards its environment.

In the case of a thermostatically controlled furnace... it reacts harmoniously, by stabilizing its initial state. In the case of stampeding herd it destabilizes its initial state in a destructive manner.

There are different types of feedback loops positive, negative & even strange feedback loops that have no clear highest or lowest level... These strange feedback loops are the ones which arise in form of human consciousness.

Re: Where are you ?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:28 am
by ashley72
Since you mention Roger Penrose's own theories on Consciousness it might be worth mentioning Douglas Hofstadter and his ability to deeply understand the smallest particles of matter. In 1976 he theorized a self-recursive pattern when an electron was in a magnetic field. It was called the Hofstadter's butterfly spectrum. Just last year (May 2013) almost 40 years after it was first theorized the spectrum pattern was experimentally observed in graphene.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/may/15/hofstadters-butterfly-spotted-in-graphene

In his book GEB written in 1976 he talks about recursion at the lowest level of matter.

We have seen recursion in the grammars of languages, we have seen recursive geometrical trees which grow upwards forever, and we have seen one way in which recursion enters the theory of solid state physics. Now we are going to see yet another way in which the whole world is built out of recursion. This has to do with the structure of elementary particles: electrons, protons, neutrons, and tiny quanta of electromagnetic radiation called "photons". We are going to see that particles are - in a certain sense - which can only be defined rigorously in relativistic quantum mechanics - nested inside each other in a way which can be described recursively, perhaps even by some sort of grammar. ~ GEB


Douglas Hofstadter was a visionary, he understood deeply the nature of "quantum information" in the very fabric of physical matter 40 years ago and it helped him understand how Consciousness emerges from complexity because of the intrinsic recursive nature of all things. This is where our "soul" is derived from.

Image
Hofstadter's Butterfly Energy Spectrum of Bloch Electron in magnetic field