Watching World News ?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Phil2 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:58 am

runstrails wrote:Here are some random ideas:

1. What if, it was not the need to experience--but rather, that any kind of experience allowed the background of 'non-experience' to be realized. And this background within which experience takes place was your true nature. So, whatever the experience, it didn't matter, it was simply a way to realize the 'background'.


Right, the idea of 'background' is a powerful one.

Ramana Maharshi used to speak of the Self (ie. consciousness) as a movie screen, whatever happens during the movie like explosions, scenes of wars, natural disasters etc. , at the end of the movie, the screen was still there unchanged and untouched by all those violent scenes ...

... but Ramana also said that the Self is not only the screen, but also the movie and the projector and the operator and the audience too ...

So in my example of the TV set, the TV set itself (ie.the body and brain) is also part of the 'movie' ... everything appearing on the screen of consciousness is part of the movie ... and consciousness itself is unmanifested, as formless awareness ...
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby runstrails » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:20 pm

Yes, indeed, Phil2. Nice analogy.
What you describe is very much the advaita point of view. Consciousness is unmanifested, untouched and yet is also maya (what appears on the screen). So the experiences (movie) themselves are not important--in fact, if you delve deeply into this analogy then you realize that nothing ever happened at all!
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby runstrails » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:41 pm

rM wrote:
So, at the level of the person, there is a certain kind of "reality": physical body, senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going down, at the level of the cell, there is a different kind of reality: body, senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going further down, at the level of the molecule, there is a (dramatically) different kind of reality: physical body, behaviors, etc.
Going up, at the level of the society (multitude of persons), there is a different kind of reality: physical body, group senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going further up, at the level of the planet (Gaia), there is yet a different kind of reality: body, senses, mind, feelings, etc.
Infinitely moving upward,
infinitely moving downward.


I was thinking of this today. I had a friend who had an accident and we had to rush to the E.R. When they were giving her the heavy-duty pain meds, they told her that the pain meds might get her 'happy' (high). And I thought to myself, it's interesting that even at the physical (brain) level, the pain and pleasure receptors are connected. So again, pain and pleasure form a duality not just at the mental level--but also at the physical level.
Wheels within wheels, as they say.
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:15 pm

rachMiel wrote:This brings to mind (my interpretation) of something EnterZen said a few days ago: the notion of an endless stack of "layers" of organization/context. Like nested Russian dolls, or as I like to think of it: an infinitely extensible (in both directions, up and down) fractal.

So, at the level of the person, there is a certain kind of "reality": physical body, senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going down, at the level of the cell, there is a different kind of reality: body, senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going further down, at the level of the molecule, there is a (dramatically) different kind of reality: physical body, behaviors, etc.
Going up, at the level of the society (multitude of persons), there is a different kind of reality: physical body, group senses, mind, behaviors, etc.
Going further up, at the level of the planet (Gaia), there is yet a different kind of reality: body, senses, mind, feelings, etc.
Infinitely moving upward,
infinitely moving downward.

This is really nice! And all those realities are simultaneously true, even though sometimes they seem to contradict. Have you ever seen the film "Powers of Ten"? Starting with a picnic in a park, the camera moves out, each time by a power of 10 (first 10 meters, then 100, then 1000, etc.) After getting all the way out to black space, the camera moves inwards from the picnic and eventually the scenery is identical to the first series--the almost-infinitely magnified-out is identical to the almost-infinitely magnified-in. It's such a good reminder because we can become so certain of our reality, when it's a view distorted by our physical perspective.

A new study suggests that our microbiome (those bacteria living in our guts) might be why we get certain food cravings--it's not me that wants the chocolate, its my microbiome!
But in the journal Bioessays, a team of scientists has raised a creepier possibility. Perhaps our menagerie of germs is also influencing our behavior in order to advance its own evolutionary success — giving us cravings for certain foods, for example. Maybe the microbiome is our puppet master...Perhaps the certain kinds of bacteria that thrive on chocolate are coaxing us to feed them.

And all those realities are connected....
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:47 pm

KathleenBrugger wrote:
A new study suggests that our microbiome (those bacteria living in our guts) might be why we get certain food cravings--it's not me that wants the chocolate, its my microbiome!
But in the journal Bioessays, a team of scientists has raised a creepier possibility. Perhaps our menagerie of germs is also influencing our behavior in order to advance its own evolutionary success — giving us cravings for certain foods, for example. Maybe the microbiome is our puppet master...Perhaps the certain kinds of bacteria that thrive on chocolate are coaxing us to feed them.

And all those realities are connected....


Makes sense when you consider the fact that 70-80 percent of our immune system is located in the gut walls. By the way, I've seen the movie you mentioned above. Really cool.
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:18 am

runstrails wrote:Yes, indeed, Phil2. Nice analogy.
What you describe is very much the advaita point of view. Consciousness is unmanifested, untouched and yet is also maya (what appears on the screen). So the experiences (movie) themselves are not important--in fact, if you delve deeply into this analogy then you realize that nothing ever happened at all!


Right rt, and this is called "awakening" ... when you awake from the dream you realize that nothing really happened ...

:)
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby snowheight » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:58 pm

runstrails wrote:It's fun to speculate, isn't it! Good thread, Phil2.

rM wrote: That the main purpose of a soul was to experience things -- all kinds of things! -- so that the Oversoul (Source) could increase its experiential repertoire.


That would seem a logical explanation, wouldn't it?. The purpose of life is so that consciousness can experience everything and more.

But what if we did some 'outside the box' speculation.

Here are some random ideas:

1. What if, it was not the need to experience--but rather, that any kind of experience allowed the background of 'non-experience' to be realized. And this background within which experience takes place was your true nature. So, whatever the experience, it didn't matter, it was simply a way to realize the 'background'.


2. What if, all possible experiences (in all the universe or multiverses) constituted one unified movement---so 'our' personal experiences were not terribly relevant--but rather the 'whole' experience was what registered. Kinda like, our neurons are set up to respond to detailed aspects of vision, or audition, but our brain as a whole has this multisensory unified perception.

Of course, we can't know anything for sure (and interestingly, when we are 'present' or 'resting as awareness' the need to know simply dissolves).

Any other wacky ideas? Would love to hear.


Metaphors are not only fun but can be really useful depending on where someone's at. For example, suggesting to someone to find themselves in the empty silent space between thoughts instead of defining themselves by the content of those thoughts can be a really powerful pointer. .. :D .. but, in the final analysis, any identification with that silent space can ultimately be seen for what it is as well.

In terms of Phil's metaphor, I'd say that there are the appearances of unique perspective and there is this appearance of what those perspectives are on. In this, appearance is the operative word.

The UP's are obviously objectifiable, but what they are on, is not, which, of course, puts the object of the UP into a context of being a sort of approximation, because the UP is really only defined relative to what the UP is on, which, in turn, defies any definition, much less is subject to any objectification.

It's funny to note that even denying the possibility of objectifying the commonality of our perspectives involves objectifying it. This is the nature of pointing, as all pointing points beyond (or prior-to) the subject-object split, but all pointing is done with ideas and language which are all dependent upon the split to begin with. The best that the fact of perspective can do is put us on notice of the commonality ever out of reach of objectification.

There is no jumping out of this skin that we appear to be in, but in stillness, the appearances all fade away.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:22 pm

snowheight wrote:
The UP's are obviously objectifiable, but what they are on, is not, which, of course, puts the object of the UP into a context of being a sort of approximation, because the UP is really only defined relative to what the UP is on, which, in turn, defies any definition, much less is subject to any objectification.

It's funny to note that even denying the possibility of objectifying the commonality of our perspectives involves objectifying it. This is the nature of pointing, as all pointing points beyond (or prior-to) the subject-object split, but all pointing is done with ideas and language which are all dependent upon the split to begin with. The best that the fact of perspective can do is put us on notice of the commonality ever out of reach of objectification.



As clear as mud :lol:
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby dijmart » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:27 pm

Phil2 wrote:
snowheight wrote:
The UP's are obviously objectifiable, but what they are on, is not, which, of course, puts the object of the UP into a context of being a sort of approximation, because the UP is really only defined relative to what the UP is on, which, in turn, defies any definition, much less is subject to any objectification.

It's funny to note that even denying the possibility of objectifying the commonality of our perspectives involves objectifying it. This is the nature of pointing, as all pointing points beyond (or prior-to) the subject-object split, but all pointing is done with ideas and language which are all dependent upon the split to begin with. The best that the fact of perspective can do is put us on notice of the commonality ever out of reach of objectification.



As clear as mud :lol:


You took the words right out of my mouth Phil!
Take what you like and leave the rest.
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:32 pm

Relax ... stay with it ... and wait for the mud to settle. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:33 pm

dijmart wrote:You took the words right out of my mouth Phil!


We surely must have a very limited intellect Di ... good news finally ... didn't someone say " Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven." ...

:lol:
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby dijmart » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:38 pm

rachMiel wrote:Relax ... stay with it ... and wait for the mud to settle. :-)


I do not understand the words that came out of his mouth, so there is no relaxing into anything, he might as well have been speaking a different language. I need a translator! :lol: It just read like..blah, blah, blah...and more blah.
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby dijmart » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:44 pm

Phil2 wrote:
dijmart wrote:You took the words right out of my mouth Phil!


We surely must have a very limited intellect Di ...


:lol:
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:47 pm

! ;-)

Been there, felt that. :-)

There's dis guy ... Phil knows him from the KFA (Krishnamurti Foundation of America) days ... who intentionally spoke (wrote) in riddles wrapped in riddles wrapped in word-drunk riddles. I generally had little to no clue what he was going on about. But there seemed to be something of import there, some *meaning* worth searching for behind the words. So I'd search, sometimes break his little essays down sentence by sentence, phrase by phrase and try to understand the logical thread. With a lot of time/energy, I'd get close to understanding (I think!) ... but never quite get there 100%.

That went on and on until I finally came to the sober realization that I would probably never understand him, that there was an insurmountable obstacle between his communication and my reception. So I stopped trying! I guess that's another way of letting the mud settle ... you just walk away from the puddle and forget about it. :-)

snowheight's dense and thorny prose is challenging for me, but much easier to grok than this other guy's. And, after puzzling through it, worthwhile meaning reveals itself (to me, in any case).

But, ultimately, it's all window dressing, right? All these pretty words and turns of phrase and delicious ideas! I think it's really important to remember that.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Watching World News ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:59 pm

rachMiel wrote:
snowheight's dense and thorny prose is challenging for me, but much easier to grok than this other guy's. And, after puzzling through it, worthwhile meaning reveals itself (to me, in any case).



Personally I don't want to risk a headache ... must be my 'defense system' operating here ...

:lol:

... also I have a natural repulsion against complex theories and explanations (and very long postings too :) ) ... I love simplicity ... this is perhaps why I like Mooji so much "the lazy man's way to enlightenment" ...

:lol:
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