E2B said: But, we know that a human can study a leaf and understand all of its physical properties, while a leaf cannot do the same to a human.
If a human is operating at one level, not better or worse, just different, then this conclusion above is discerning or judging based on parameters and factors within the capacity of human thinking / awareness, which only understands the understanding of physical and creative properties based on the limitations of human physical and creative properties.
A leaf responds uniquely and separately to energy in motion, by their own interpretation, translation and generation of creation energy, within the limitations of its composition of creation energy.
When human scientists generally admit that we (humans generally) do not know the properties of, or the capacities of, consciousness or 'creative intelligence' of our own species or other species - be that awareness or alertness or capacity to think and to communicate and interact - how then can one possibly think that they can understand the awareness, alertness, thinking & communicating capacity of any other species? We only understand our own experience.
Sure a leaf can not physically pick up a knife and dissect a human the way humans pick up a knife and dissect leaves, nor can they yell out in whatever preferred human language - Oi!! that hurts!!
... but leaves play an integral part in interacting with humans and all species that require sunlight and oxygen - is that not 'touching' not 'communicating', not interacting in some form of creation energy in motion / transfer?
The thing that nde'ers understand /experience / see is that the wider creative intelligence & communication is limited in the human body/brain, not enhanced by it per se, but that it all feeds perfectly into equilibrium.
That's the omg oh shit the premise is all wrong
about life and every living thing - and by living thing I mean any creation, processing, transfer, arising, falling, directing, redirecting, interpreting, translating, transforming, holding or letting go of energy in motion - even thoughts and emotions and dreams and fears which have no physical form in biological terms and yet there they are - as real and as concrete and as integral in life as a pulsing, vibrating brick wall, or tiny grain of sand or sugar at any point of 'creation' in the eco system of all life.
E2B said: What is the point of a brain and nervous system if other physical species and non species (rocks, etc) can feel just like we do without nervous systems?
Now that's a worthy question E2B
one of a true scientist. It's one I definitely asked on return to my brilliantly magnificently complex while ridiculously unevolved physical awareness, capacity & limitations in body awareness rather than whatever that free flowing, more unlimited awareness in knowledge and movement was in the nde. Why do I need to squish myself back into this cold, hard, heavy, brittle, slow acccgghghghgh 'body' to 'be love and compassion', when it was much easier to be love and compassion 'creative energy' without it, because I already was it? Because love and compassion in and of itself needs vehicles through which to be expressed, in order to generate / create more of itself.
If it's in our brains - if that awareness & capacity is in our human brains then we actually need do no thing physical - but then there would be no thing done to create and contribute to the equilibrium of energy in motion of us, or by us.
What indeed is the point of individual brains and nervous systems, if not the individuated experience of cause and effect of energy in motion contributing to the 'all' of energy in motion via the limited viewing, the 'personal' experience, funnelling and being like powerhouses interpreting, translating and 'processing' energy.
Think of this - we create greater generation of energy by pushing the 'bigger' mass or whatever through smaller spaces, so a river piped through ever smaller pipes (limiters) creates higher pressure/energy... yes?
And, maybe individual leaves have that limitation too, maybe they too have greater and lesser awareness that they are intrinsically a part of and connected to, and contributing to the energy cycles of the branch, the tree, the atmosphere, the earth, other species in individuation and as a part of the whole etc - all playing their 'part'.
Without the individual ecosystems within the mothering earth > trees > branches > leaves (each one down-stepping & increasing limitations but also increasing energy creation/processing) the oxygen energy system on this planet would not sustain the 'life' that it currently does.
The 'thing' of realising the incredible connectedness and eternal equilibrium of 'everything' in an nde, is not so much the wonder of that - amazing as it is - but that one sees the incredible importance, and equal not importance, of every single movement or expression of energy in motion - from its source in individuation and processing through ecosystems and biofeedback loops etc - to its embraced, perfect place, in the equilibrium. .
If energy is expressed it is accepted, embraced enthusiastically by the 'all' in equilibrium. If it is not expressed it is not missed because it never was - only what 'is' contributes to the 'all'.
So if a leaf squeals in pain (and they do in their own language - merely like our 'sounds' a movement of energy at a frequency), or thrills in joy at the touch of a raindrop or the warmth of the sun, or suffers in dehydration that too is embraced even as its processing of sunlight into a different 'energy' form is just ticking along.
If a human has a thought, or an expression of emotion, or a burst of love or a shudder in fear, they too are embraced - no thing - no element or expression or combination of elements of energy in motion is not known by its parts and its wider wholenesses by connections to and interactions with, all other elements of energy in motion.
In a sense the flap of a butterfly's wing creating a tsunami on the other side of the Earth - every tinier than microscopic minute and majestic contribution and consequential effect of energy in motion is all 'known', all available to be known, and all embraced continually in equilibrium. Maybe a leaf feels it, maybe not, maybe some humans feel it, maybe not.
When one is not in physical form one cannot 'move' energy physically one can only seamlessly merge in and with it - one has no need or capacity to turn one form of energy into another one just is creation energy unlimited by form.
What's the point? Life, I guess.
Energy is generated by movement - in some form or another. Without life, without individuation, without limitations creating resistance and movement, there would be no 'life' not even within the equilibrium, there would just be total stillness and with total stillness there would be a vacuum, rather than 'everything' there would be 'nothing'. But there cannot be a vacuum where there is even one tiny even unable to be seen microbe or whatever moving energy.
When you can look at your own body and realise just how many incredible energy in motion eco-systems there are just within it, (microscopically & intangibly) interacting with other entire multiply-complex eco-systems outside of it's 'boundaries' (macroscopically & telescopically to infinity) and realise that each has its perfect place in equilibrium, that's where both humility and magnificence know itself. >> and even that realisation is an active contributor to 'life'.
With this awareness, I just watched a bee - who is as precious / integral to the all as I am, whose flapping of its wings is contributing as much to life as when it is sucking from a flower head, or back in the hive turning nectar into honey, or squabbling with another bee or injecting its sting into another 'threat' to its existence, and the honey is just as precious when it's nectar as when it is holding together the hive and its 'purpose', or nourishing the cells of any other species and turning into food energy which is then expressed in a myriad of ways with cause and effect all the way through- it's all precious. - even Ebola, is precious for its contributions to the all, as energy in motion, so too are all interactions - regardless of intention or awareness of them - (albeit intention is a whole other ecosystem of energy in motion, still contributing to life creating itself).
Only through our limitations do we deem otherwise, and that too has its own place in interpreting, translating & contributing to energy in motion - eternally.
To go back to the 'elements' of the question though - I might propose that only humans with human capacity/limitations can 'feel just like we do', and even within human capacities, each according to their knowledge. 'Their knowledge' - any interpretation and awareness of knowledge in individual limitation can only be experienced within the parameters of the limitations and capacity of each individual - be that human or any other.
So an 'awareness' of a leaf would be the feeling experience of a leaf, not the same feeling experience as a human, and even within individual humans (or within leaves) those feeling (sensing, interpreting, translating creation energy) experiences would be unique. So that's kind of 'the point' of it