No existence in any form after death?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:47 pm

wander wrote:its intersting, my friend always said he was worried about what would happen to his personality if he was enightened , and i thought that was funny. But a few times it really seems liek it woud be boring to jsut be ONE, not separate from anything. Though i am sure im missing something

Young children enjoy playing with toys and find the interests of adults quite boring. I suspect your concern is much the same. It comes from a lack of clarity on the joys of adult (enlightened) interests. I think there is some scripture on this as well. Something about "when I was a child I spake as a child, but as a man I put away childish things". Forgive the butchered paraphase. :)

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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby none » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:40 pm

Thanks Wander for asking those questions. It prompted more answers which provide more insights.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby erbeeflower » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:51 pm

Hello,i have had an 'understanding' about us all being one...i havn't read any books about 'after life' or any such subject,this just came to me after wondering about 'loss of individuality'...it never use to make any sense,i just didn't get it...i've heard it described as one drop of water merging with a vast area of water,a sea... i couldn't imagine how there would be any seperateness if we merged like that....untill today! this will kinda be like describing the taste of honey without actually tasting it,here go's...the gap you can allow between thought,the observing non judging watcher,you essence,that which is no thing,consciousness,source eternal,the now,the present moment,(you know what i'm pointing too!) all this is you without form.Counsciousness manifested form,it made experience -physical,possible!! it manifested everything there is...everything you can think of or imagine,it is evolving it's essence by learning from the manifested experience.Each experience is not wasted.When our form dies,that which is you merges with the source,which is also you.you are still there/here/existing,you have become one with source and all experience of that which source manifested....

This is what i have tasted. I dont know if it contradicts,i don't know if it will alter as i continue my life situation,this is what is on my menu for now :-D
I'm still enjoying thinking and exploring too much to get stuck here :-)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby erbeeflower » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:02 am

...so you will be aware of you as well as all the other yous that had experience in form.... how does one describe what something tastes like?!! i hope you can catch the drift,but it's only a pointer.
I'm still enjoying thinking and exploring too much to get stuck here :-)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby mistral » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:27 am

Here is my intuition on it and you can take it or leave it;

I think nothing changes much when we die, but I do think for most of us, it will be a better place, as they say-- I think we meet again with those we loved, and will always love, I think we are young again (in an ageless sort of way) and I think we keep our same unique identity, but since going through the raveges of this world, we are a bit gentler, kinder, Grace is clearly more apparent within our Hearts and mind, we no longer regret, we do not carry burdens of this world accross the veil---We are free, but stil our selves, our blessedly individual selves---we find our loved ones waiting for us right there on the other side. Yes, I think it will be Heaven--the Sweetest Heavenly Peace and Light where even our long lost pets come running to greet us---Idealic? Yes, I think so---Filled with Love and Tender Reunion, nothing 'merged into oneness' just the Oneness of God's Presence in all its Sweet Bliss surrounding and permeating the everwhereness of This Joyous Meadow of Light---we will feel safe and secure with our most favorite loved ones that we thought we lost forever---Here, they are home, we are home once again--- they were awaiting our return---at last, together at last.

Here is something a very wise mystic wrote and I always loved it; I will share it here with you anyway:

Pages 164 to 167 "The Awareness of Self-Discovery" By William Samuel

The Horseman and Boy

He gave the screw another turn. The wood creaked slightly and puffed over the top of the screw. Everyone watched with intent interest except the little boy in the rear of room. He was looking out the window, down the road past the ramshckeledly house and to the hill beyond.

The man gave another turn and the splitting wood could be heard across the room. The boy looked away from the window to the faces of those who watched the man standing over the coffin. He looked into evey face and noted that not a one was aware of him; then he looked out the widow again to the hill beyond the ramshackledy house.

“By gosh, that oughta hold it!” said one of the onlookers.

”It out to, but I’m gonna put in another,” said the man who was putting the huge screws into the coffin. He took another of the mammoth pieces of threaded metal from the box at his feet and prepared to start it into the side of the coffin with a heavy hammer.

With the sound of the first blow the little boy turned from the widow again. He noticed the attention of the onlookers was beginning to waver. At any moment one of them would see him there in the rear of the room standing half in the sunlight from the window and half in the shows of old country store. “I wish he would,” he whispered to himself, and made another survey of the hill beyond the ramshackle house. Then his face lifted in an eager smile. Coming over the hill rode a tall man sitting stiff and straight in the saddle, leaning forward in that half arrogant, half swashbuckling way that nobody on earth but his father had. “It’s him! It ain't nobody but him!” The lad all but shouted aloud, and he would have if it hadn’t been for the people around the child’s coffin at the front to the store.

“Poor kid,” the man with the tool said. “You’d have thought he just didn’t care the way he jumped offa that ledge at the quarry."

”I don’t think he did care. He didn’t care for nothin’ since his pa was killed at Gettysburg. He didn’t have no ma and his brothers are off fightin’. The way he loved that pa of his, I just don’t think he cared. He just laughed when we told him he couldn’t make it over the ledge below. He said his pa could do it and if’n his pa could he reckoned he could, too.”

The boy in back of the room had moved to the window and leaned out as if to hurry the distant horseman. His eyes, alight, were filled with tears and they cleaned a path through his dirty, sweaty cheeks, rolled under his chin and made a dark spot on the scrubbed wood sill of the window. “It’s him,” he whispered to himself through excitement-clenched teeth. “It’s him. I’d know that ride any day of the week and twicet on Sunday!”

The work on the coffin had stopped and those closest gathered around it and lifted it gently from the work-bench. A solemn procession moved slowly toward the door.

The boy by the widow turned, frightened now that he would be seen. Quickly wiping his sleeve across his nose and cheek in an effort to wipe away the tearful evidence, he prepared to speak. Then he noticed that still no was looking at him; but sorta looking right through him, too, like they didn’t see him at all. None of them looked like they saw him. “They’re so filled with sadness, I reckon,” the boy thought. “They just don’t see me atall---like they never did hardly see me—but nobody pays no attention to a boy.”

The procession with the coffin left. Out by the tree, just before their voices would have been out of range, someone said, “He just jumped off’n that high ledge yellin’, “Come and git me, Pa! I’d druther be with you!’ I think he was plumb crazy with loneliness.”

The tall rider and white horse were approaching the old store. The boy turned from the sight of the solemn procession carrying the coffin and ran to greet the swashbuckling Confederate officer riding so high in the saddle.

”Eddie!” yelled the rider.

”Pa!” answered the little boy.

Barely reining his big white horse, the soldier leaned in the saddle and grabbed the boy on the run. Tears streaming from the eyes of both, their embrace was father and son reunion. The boy held on, squeezing with the unabashed love of a little boy so long separated from his father. The lathered horse snorted and pawed the ground.

“Oh, Pa. Pa!” he said. “I love you, Pa!”

“I love you too, Eddie. I’ve missed you so much.”
\
“Yes, we’re together, and this time we’ll stay together.”

He prodded the horse into a slow walk and turned up the street toward the church. The brief funeral had ended and the procession carrying the small coffin left the church and headed toward the cemetery at the side.
”Pa,” said the small boy on horseback, “they never did pay no attention to me at all ’till I jumped off’n that ledge.”

“I know, son,” said his father, “but we’re together now.”


This is from a most excellent book "The Awareness of Self-Discovery, by William Samuel---

Happy New Year All---
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby erbeeflower » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:52 am

[quote="mistral"]Here is my intuition on it and you can take it or leave it;

I'll let it be,it is what is.
I'm still enjoying thinking and exploring too much to get stuck here :-)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby jackh » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:02 am

I actually stopped listening to Adyashanti because of what he said about death. I almost wasn't sure if he was joking when he said it, because it came out so cryptic and haunting. A woman during one of his talks asked what happened at the time of death, and he said something along the lines of, "Just like any other time, death is exactly what you imagine it to be. That is why it is so harmful for ideas to be put into the minds of people of what death is." And that just seemed completely wrong to me. To think that one's perceived idea of death that is conditioned by whatever thoughts one has absorbed from society and one's upbringing would be what one would actually experience! What a dreadful fate, utterly ruled by the mind's concepts after death? Where is the truth in that?

If anyone happened to hear this particular talk by Adyashanti, did I misunderstand him entirely or is he actually saying this? Adyashanti has always seemed to speak so truthfully and to have gotten right to the heart of the matter--and that is partially why hearing him say this terrified me so much--but this just doesn't make sense. If anyone could shed some light, that would be great.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Plorel » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:57 pm

Hey Jack.
I think you got him wrong there. If he really said that, maybe he meant that death is a construct anyway because nothing real dies except for an identity or something along these lines.
Anyway, this doesnt sound too much like you got him right on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFYfX29CVnA
Who am I without my story?
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:04 pm

Jackh, I think you do misunderstand Adya. My take on what he's saying is similar to what I've heard from other sources. Beliefs adopted in a physical life generally do guide the death experience - but only so far. If one is a Christian, they tend to see Jesus as their light being greeting them home. If one is a Muslim, then it's likely to be Mohammed. Believe in Pearly Gates? So be it. But all of these are just limited experiences of an after life and not the fullness of it. One can become focused in these belief structures for some time depending on the strength of the belief, but they are no more permanent than any other imagined reality.

Thus the importance of letting go of all beliefs and accepting life as it is in the here and now. Living life through an understanding that all phenomena are just points of view to experience, allows one to see that the initial phenomena of death is likely just residual belief structures. In Danison's NDE she experimented with ideas about what soul life was like. Whatever she imagined instantly manifested as an apparent reality. As beings of consciousness it follows that our experience of life, to a significant degree, is formed by concepts.

Again this is my take on it through my considerble research and study. I suspect that whatever I think about it will be less than the realilty, so I strive to be open and remain curious.

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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Ananda » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:35 pm

I'll add a few words. In my experience, the concepts of reincarnation and karma no longer hold any real truth to them. Nothing transmigrates from one body to another when this body breaks down, no personality or memory persists because they were created uniquely in that brain through it's own unique experience, they were not there prior to the brain, and will not be after it. Once the body is gone there is nothing more to be had or done with it.

Reincarnation only seems tenable if you believe that the consciousness resides inside of the body somewhere, but this cannot be so because consciousness is not subject to either time or space like the body is, and nor can consciousness ever be located or ever found in any place whatsoever.

Every body is inside consciousness. There aren't many selves, nor is the Self some individual aspect of a greater Self, nor is the Self a drop of water in the ocean, nor is the Self like a small flame from the Sun. The Self is the indivisable whole, the one without another (hint; non duality!) The Self is eternal, but it is not personal, it is very simply universal Self-knowledge. I disagree that the Self is 'having a physical experience' ie that there is some aspect residing in the body. To say that is so is identifying with the body, some creeping form of individuality has arisen, however subtle.

There is no life after death because there is no death. The body never existed independently of the Self, it's existence is borrowed from That, the body is entirely inert without it, like a puppet that is animated by the puppet master. There is only eternal existence, by which all forms take life from until they break down by the conditions of impermanence.

:)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:47 pm

In the market place of ideas life offers an infinite smorgasbord from which to choose. What one consumes is what appears as reality - in this world (experience) or the next. How cool. :D

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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Tara » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:59 pm

Ananda wrote:I'll add a few words. In my experience, the concepts of reincarnation and karma no longer hold any real truth to them. Nothing transmigrates from one body to another when this body breaks down, no personality or memory persists because they were created uniquely in that brain through it's own unique experience, they were not there prior to the brain, and will not be after it. Once the body is gone there is nothing more to be had or done with it.


This subject is what I struggle with. I have read and re-read the posts. The very first one by none still doesn't seem to be answered...I know it is my mind wanting an answer and maybe it is already there, but again my mind wants to "see" the truth...like 2 colors in front of me and I see and "know" they are red and brown. I feel certain, confident and can move on cause my mind believes it (but is it really so) so maybe death or what happens when the body dies will never be "known" by my mind.

And I am more content now then before I read Tolle but often I think of a loved one who died and at the very least want to know I will see her again...otherwise yes why should I realize the truth if it means connecting with others only to never see them again..and then that leads me to fear of what that might mean when my body dies and where do I go? I get a lot of the now info intellectually even if I still haven't "experienced" it and it has shaken me out of most perceived problems...but everything goes back to death...which is what Tolle says all thought past and future is about fear...so I guess I really haven't "learned" much...lol.

Anyways Ananda's post hits home but also elicits anxiety. I have been put under twice for surgery...it is so different from being asleep and waking up knowing you slept and maybe even dreamed. Being put under medically for me and waking up, I had no reference point or no sense of oh I was asleep and now I feel that...none of that was there...maybe that is death??

Sorry for rambling on. I did learn from religion that there is a resurrection of the dead...but then again is that just a adopted belief like WW says?

I want to know what happens to us when we die so I can know if I will see my loved ones and then ultimately know my fate so to speak!!..lol Isn't this what we are all seeking? I guess I am going in circles:) But I will get back to here and NOW and stop thinking of past and future which is what takes me out of what I am doing right now, sitting here on the couch typing and looking at the ice melt outside:)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby erbeeflower » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:19 pm

just wanted to say i was in the present moment when i had my 'thought'/'understanding'/whatever.... (why) did the great consciosuness manifest the 'physical reality'? Lovev to us all :-D
I'm still enjoying thinking and exploring too much to get stuck here :-)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby mistral » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:43 pm

Let me be a bit boulder here ---Listen to Life--- Life tells us the Truth---It is The Truth--Life's Omnipresence will reveal the Truth to you---The truth is that no soldier, no stranger, no friend, no child or loved one has ever died. You will feel, know, hear, see that this is true. You will have no doubt about this. Life does not die. Life is who and what you are.

God and Life are synomous. God does not die. Ominipresence is not excluded from the 'many rooms" of Its own Being--- In my Father's house are many mansions-- All Life is Here and Now, Already One. If you claim to know that there is only One Life then how can you worry about or be perplexed by 'death'--death is impossible to Life. Life does not die.

Claim your Real Identity, Life Itself, This OmniPresent Awareness, the Power of Now and Live It---then you will know for your self, for sure, that 'nothing happens' to Life---the Self I am. Life is not Self destructive. Life is Eternal Light and we will no more experience 'death' any more than Light can ever experience darkness.

The old Taoist Master said it well "With the Light of Life there is no end"

and when I was a little girl I always used to say "there is no spot where God is not"---and it is still true today. God is All and this Life right Here and Now is God's Living Presence---There is NO other --- I am one with this All Inclusive Awareness, Life, Light, Wisdom, Intelligence, This Awareness is God's Life/Awareness, the Light I Am forever and ever. The Light of you and me forever.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Sighclone » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:22 am

My sense (not belief) of this is in flux. For the record, in her November interview on conscious.tv, Jac O'Keeffe said that her impression is that energies have to be released, and that a new "person" might be reincarnated, but that "person" would not be exactly like one who died...some components, but not the total.

That's for the record. Also, I recommend Nanci Danison's "Backwards, Returning to our source for answers"...a must read for anyone seriously interested and concerned...this is a hugely positive book, by the way, if you are past all the traditional religious belief systems.

My current impression, which aligns fairly well with Gary Weber's: Since there really are no "persons," only "personalities" which formed up after the birth of the body-mind, when the body dies, the personality goes along with it. Let me ramble a bit about death of the personality:

Depending on the strength of the ego identity, that personality might survive into some soul plane. Now the Dzogchen folks are very keen on this -- former Rinpoches reincarnate and are "recognized" as such. I went through a Michael Newton "life-between-lives" past life regression a few years back. Yup, some kind of vague "past lives" showed up. What was quite clear, though, was the need for "me" to get back in the earth-side loop quickly...which apparently happened without the usual 30-35 years on the soul plane. But ultimately, the fictional energy of a personality dissipates...there are forms of karma which allow this. So they all say.

My take on the Self is that the more Self-realized you become, the less concerned you are with death of the body, and the less concerned you are with death at all. Since you are not identified with anything which was born, but your existence precedes the birth of the body which is the particular window and vehicle through which Self experiences itSelf in this phenomenal, time-bound relative dualistic world, death is like going to sleep and not waking up. What do you care?

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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