No existence in any form after death?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby mistral » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:47 pm

There is no death--None-- You are This Awareness and It does not die---Mind, Me, Consiousness, Self, Identity, Awareness, the Awareness right here that is aware of these words right now, This Consiousness is 'who I Am' and It is BEFORE anything and everything, I cannot know anything at all if Consciousness, MInd, LIght, Awareness did not come first---The First And the Last is This Awareness (I am The First and Last saith the God/Awareness/Divine Mind/Life). If you start with The Beginning and STAY with The Beginning you will not be afraid of the imgages within This Self I Am/Awareness I Am.

We are Aware, this we know for sure, or we could not even say "I am aware" or "I am anything" or "I am worried about death"

Awareness comes first, is first, and there is nothing 'causing it'---That is Truth, that is a Fact---if there was something 'causeing awareness' it would have to exist before awareness and that is not possible--why? because it takes Awareness to KNOW something exists---

Awareness is your Self, and It does not die, ever---It does not go to sleep to never wakeup---Start with Awareness and do not veer from The Beginning---watch and see how simple and wondrous LIfe Is when you do this.

I recommend a book titled "A Guide To Awareness and Tranquillity" by William Samuel- (you can get it on Amazon) --It is a book based in Non-duality, written many years ago and still a number one seller on the adavaita non-duality and spiritual enlightenment lists---You will see why---Its a remarkable book-- it is filled with honest clear explainations of "how to" stay with the Truth and Really get clear and then you be able to live your Life free and at peace---You will be amazed at how this author is able to explain in simple terms these things that seem so complicated and difficult---you will see that they are not difficult and you will find This Genuine Peace and Joy, and Understanding of your very own ---
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby erbeeflower » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:42 pm

. . .








. .
I'm still enjoying thinking and exploring too much to get stuck here :-)
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby egomoon » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:54 am

I recommend Thich Nhat Hanh's "No Death, No Fear"
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby mus3cho » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:36 pm

"Death" seems an arbitrary label. It suggests a boundary and as I have become more aware I realize even the term "boundary" seems arbitrary.
Part of the evolution to a higher state of consciousness is to be able to look at where you've come from and thank the experiences for getting you to where you are now. Language has been a useful tool, "signposts". In reality there is no above and beyond, but ........












:wink:
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby mus3cho » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:38 pm

erbeeflower wrote:. . .








. .


I coudn't have said it better .......
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Eldred » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:52 pm

Just to calm down your fearing ego... as long as you identify with a form there is also a form even after death, which is proved by people like Robert Monroe.
There are even places like The Monroe Institute http://www.monroeinstitute.org where you can have an OBE :)
Eckhart doesn't talk about this, because it's just another Ego related thing which takes you away from what you really are.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Sighclone » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:26 pm

Welcome Eldred!

Eckhart doesn't talk about this, because it's just another Ego related thing which takes you away from what you really are.


Yup, a distraction. But there are many distractions which are interesting, like golf or sailing or music, or psychic phenomena. No reason to cease exploring, just be sure to remember and experience who we really are.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Eldred » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:14 pm

Wise words, Andy, wise words.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby enigma » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:27 pm

It's actually a facsinating question that goes right to the heart of 'the Awakening problem'. It's also extremely difficult to address as perhaps demonstrated in this thread. I'm pretty sure I'm not up to the task either, but we'll see what shows up.

The issue is not really even about existence, and the term gets a bit problematic anyway. The heart of the question is, why am I working hard to realize Truth if all it's going to do is put an end to me? Any 'want' is based on the belief in the separate identity which is looking for a better experience, and so the whole notion that the one wanting actually wants the Truth is false. This is how Truth can remain hidden in plain sight, because nobody is actually looking for it. It's important to begin here; The search for Truth is formed entirely from the delusion that one is not already that, and without that delusion, there could be no search. There's not one mind identified person in the world who has the slightest interest in finding Truth. Mind identification is the basis for the search as well as the denial of the Truth that is allegedly being sought.

It should be mentioned here that mind has the remarkable ability to not notice the obvious if it is not interested in noticing. This short video can give a bit of insight into that process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
It's not really as mysterious at it might seem. Basically, perception and creation are the same, and perception is driven by a focus of attention, and attention is driven by interest. That which we have no interest in, virtually doesn't exist for us. This includes Truth. This explains the astounding fact that the most obvious moon walking Truth bear is noticed by hardly anyone.

What happens in the spiritual search is sometimes referred to as the spiritual circus because it's the interest in something other than the Truth, being carried out under the guise of Truth seeking. What is found is everything BUT Truth, since the focus is on a better experience. Seekers will, therefore, have all sorts of experiences of NDE's, past life regression, spirit communication, mind states, presence, enlightenment and dancing ego bears and clown cars, but will never find Truth this way. The seeking has been going on for the entire lifetime in some form or another, and spiritual seeking is just another form. All of the seeking needs to stop, which is actually the point of the seeking. The goal is to reach a point of utter futility. The seeker is not looking for Truth and can't find Truth and simply needs to stop looking for something else. This is not to be turned into another method of seeking.

When the seeker asks, 'What's in it for me? Why would I want this Truth thing?', the light is beginning to dawn. There's nothing at all in it for the Truth seeker. The seeker and the seeking, is a lie.
What would be useful here would be to try to clarify why Truth is actually a good thing. I don't know that I can do that, but it might be interesting to try, which I'll tackle in a bit.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Mouse » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:59 pm

enigma wrote:What would be useful here would be to try to clarify why Truth is actually a good thing. I don't know that I can do that, but it might be interesting to try, which I'll tackle in a bit.

Thank you for your perception of how things are. I hear the truth in what you say. Twice in your above post you mention that self "I" is looking for a better experience. I see that is true to a degree but the greater reality behind that is the search for a more real experience. This parallels evolution in that I is always drawn to a greater or more intelligent perception of what is. Existence is the evolution of "I" becoming more intelligent. Intelligence being the ability to perceive reality.

Truth is good because it is the death of me, and the dawning of a better/greater/more real perception or intelligence.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby enigma » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:51 pm

Mouse wrote:Thank you for your perception of how things are. I hear the truth in what you say. Twice in your above post you mention that self "I" is looking for a better experience. I see that is true to a degree but the greater reality behind that is the search for a more real experience. This parallels evolution in that I is always drawn to a greater or more intelligent perception of what is. Existence is the evolution of "I" becoming more intelligent. Intelligence being the ability to perceive reality.

Truth is good because it is the death of me, and the dawning of a better/greater/more real perception or intelligence.


Yeah, the "more real experience" is the 'better experience' to which I was referring, which leads me to what I wanted to jabber about. What 'we' are is sometimes called Stillness. All experience is the perception of movement, which we can define in a broad way as the arising of perception itself, whether of objects, thoughts, feelings, images. Experience is Stillness in motion. This implies two things:
-Stillness, itself, cannot be experienced
-All experience is the movement of Stillness and not Stillness (Truth) itself.

What the seeker is hoping for is an experience of Self, and this is imagined to be somehow more Peaceful, Joyful, Loving, whatever, than what he presently experiences. This illusion looks pretty good until he tries to project the experiencer beyond death, and then he has to imagine souls and afterlife and energy or a Big Oneness thingy or whatever works. None of that has anything to do with Truth. So again the question is, why would I want Truth, and the answer is you don't want it and can't want it.

The dualistic perception of experience can be seen as a kind of pale reflection of Truth, not in the sense that Truth consists of bigger and better attributes and qualities than the experience does, but in the sense that all experience is an imaginary imitation of Beingness, expressed in the form of qualities. This is not to imply that Beingness has qualities at all. I mean to imply that the absence of ALL qualities is 'better' than the presence of even the best imagined quality. IOW, what Beingness IS, is better than the best conceptual version of love, joy and peace that can be experienced.

An analogy I've used before is the head banging analogy. Suffering is banging your head really hard against the wall. Dualistic joy is banging it softly. What we're forced to call nondualistic Joy, is no head banging at all. This nondualistic Love, Joy and Peace are not experienced qualities. They mean to point to Beingness itself, and so these words all point to the same thing. IOW, they are not experiential qualities of Being. They are Beingness.

So what we're saying is that there is 'something' beyond the experience of the experiencer, and as such it does not require a 'you' to experience it, and all the afterlife and soul stuff can be thrown out. This is the consequence of oneness realization, the experiencer, the experienced, and the experience itself are all seen for the illusion they are, which is a reflection of your own movement. Experience is Beingness watching itself flailing around in the mirror, and this is not the same as knowing oneself to Be.

Truth realization could be said to have certain consequences. The realization that one is not 'of the world', and does not die, radically alters the experience of life in a positive way. Experience goes on but it is no longer believed that one is the mind/body person who is apparently experiencing. Second, since it is clear that since one is never born, one cannot die. Thirdly, since Beingness is not an experience that requires an experiencer, the end of the experience through the individuated expression becomes an almost irrelevant event, and some may even see it as a kind of distraction.
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Ralph » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:03 am

enigma wrote : The seeking has been going on for the entire lifetime in some form or another, and spiritual seeking is just another form. All of the seeking needs to stop, which is actually the point of the seeking. The goal is to reach a point of utter futility. The seeker is not looking for Truth and can't find Truth and simply needs to stop looking for something else. This is not to be turned into another method of seeking.


Okay, I get what you are saying and agree with you but my question is how does the seeking stop when it is seen that the seeker and the seeking is a lie ? There is SEEING that it must be stopped but how does it stop ? ... the seeing of what is going on is not enough to stop it, ...why is the attention still put on the seeker seeking Truth even after it is seen that the seeker will never find Truth and does not want to find Truth. I hope you understand what I am trying to get at .
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Sighclone » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:20 am

why is the attention still put on the seeker seeking Truth even after it is seen that the seeker will never find Truth and does not want to find Truth.


May I intrude with a comment? I know enigma will respond with his usual wisdom.

So long as there is any form of suffering felt, there will be the desire for relief. It is the mind which distinguishes the difference between emptiness and form. And it is the mind which can never reconcile the two. Self-realization is not only relief from suffering, but it is release from an entity which can suffer...or seek. Grace arrives, and, in that moment, attention is defocused...attention is subsumed in the pure experience of Self, which is meta-mental...but very much felt. The eyeball does not see itself. There is only seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, touching, as potential. Very much a living potential. An empty imaginarium. Pregnant, dancing, intangible, empty but vitally alive.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby enigma » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:52 am

Ralph wrote:
enigma wrote : The seeking has been going on for the entire lifetime in some form or another, and spiritual seeking is just another form. All of the seeking needs to stop, which is actually the point of the seeking. The goal is to reach a point of utter futility. The seeker is not looking for Truth and can't find Truth and simply needs to stop looking for something else. This is not to be turned into another method of seeking.


Okay, I get what you are saying and agree with you but my question is how does the seeking stop when it is seen that the seeker and the seeking is a lie ? There is SEEING that it must be stopped but how does it stop ? ... the seeing of what is going on is not enough to stop it, ...why is the attention still put on the seeker seeking Truth even after it is seen that the seeker will never find Truth and does not want to find Truth. I hope you understand what I am trying to get at .


How could it continue?
Lets say you go out to feed the duck in the pond every day, and one day you realize it's not a duck at all but a wooden decoy. Will you ask how to stop feeding now that this has been seen?
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Re: No existence in any form after death?

Postby Ralph » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:43 am

How could it continue?


Well I guess it continues because there is still some unfinished business to attend to.
The belief of a separate self that suffers is still there. ... perhaps the seeking will stop suddenly when whatever is left of my belief system has been seen through.
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