NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:07 am

So my question is the following.
When we use our brains and when we do access our memory and think we do activate the brain and certain areas lighten up, this means that we use the brain to access the memory and think. We Use It.
So...when people say that leave the body, watch planet earth and think and have memories during the FLIGHT, so.....if they acutally leave the body how come they still can think and have memories as they don't use the brain? If this is the case it means that consciousness has memory of thinking of its own and does not need a brain, then why the hell our heads are not just empty or filled up with the same substance - like plastic for exmaple? Consciousness will have memory, thinking , everything? Why do we have brains if consciousness doesn't need it to think, memory, talk to itself etc!!??!?!
This thingy doesn't logically fit....what are your thoughts on this casus?

There is only one possible way, when the consciousness leaves the body, it must have some connection with the brain and write memories, think etc. If the patient is brain dead I mean brain activity is zero, then NDE shouldn't appear. Do you know if the NDE people are BRAIN DEAD during the NDE orthey have brain activity?

Also does anybody have any idea why there are people who were clincally death then alive again but didn't have NDE or OBE, and those are the mass. The less part had NDE? Why does not everybody experience that? What is the reason? Why it's not 100%?!
Last edited by gen6 on Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:03 am, edited 4 times in total.
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.
User avatar
gen6
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:36 pm

Concerning the first part of your post, a NDE or an OBE of course could not logically be genuine, because these are experiences had by the sense organs and brain. Things such as hovering over the bed, flying around, various sights and sounds. Unless there is some other body which has sense perception and a brain, which one enters into, then it follows that these experiences are the product of imagination, much like dreams.

The Self is not inside the body, nor is it individual, so I don't believe for a second that one leaves a body and enters into another, as if the Self was some floaty spirit thing.
User avatar
Ananda
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:35 am
Location: Manchester, England

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Quinn » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:31 pm

Ananda wrote:Unless there is some other body which has sense perception and a brain, which one enters into, then it follows that these experiences are the product of imagination, much like dreams.


Well, maybe there is another body. What about the energy body? It makes sense to me that the energy body could possibly 'detach' when the body is in mortal danger. It also makes sense that there is an intelligence to that system that could 1)perceive danger and respond with self-preservation like all living things do, and 2)remember that it did that.

Just a "thought"....
Quinn
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:52 am

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby samadhi » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:08 pm

If you subscribe to the notion of reductionism, which is a cornerstone of materialistic science, then you struggle to explain NDEs, etc, because this paradigm purports that consciousness is merely an accidental byproduct of neuron activity. This is absurd to me...it's like examining a radio set and, having no understanding of how radio waves are created, transmitted and received, deciding that somehow the mechanical components of the radio set must somehow 'accidentally' be creating the sounds that the radio is producing, and that if you took a hammer to the radio and destroyed it the radio signals/content would cease to exist. That's absurd and yet it's deemed 'science' by many people. This is in spite of the fact that after years of intensive research neurologist simply cannot locate where in the brain consciousness is supposedly generated. Sure, parts of the brain light up when specific thoughts arise, but this is little more than footprints appearing in the sand...it demonstrates that something has been there, but says nothing about what or how.

I found Deepak Chopra's book 'Life after death' (at least I think that's what it's called) very enlightening. In the words of Chopra himself : "neurons are instruments of communication. You are not the instrument but the user of the instrument. The user is non-local, the instrument is local - like Beethoven coming through the radio."

So yeah - consciousness is non-local, but the body - which it expresses itself through for a time - is local. Take the body out of the equation and obviously consciousness can no longer express through it, but it doesn't 'destroy' consciousness any more than switching off a radio 'destroys' the radio signals.

I hope that makes some sense.
samadhi
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:40 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:45 pm

samahdi - How well put, thank you!!

That said, I remain unconvinced that NDE's, OBE's and past life memories are products of the imagination. This is to say, as do you, that explaining them is problematic; but discounting them as fantasies is equally hard, and feels intuitively wrong...to me. That they are all distractions from Self, however...of that I am certain.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:13 pm

That they are all distractions from Self, however...of that I am certain


This is pretty much how I feel about it too, whether NDEs are false or real.
User avatar
Ananda
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:35 am
Location: Manchester, England

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:27 pm

Sighclone wrote:I remain unconvinced that NDE's, OBE's and past life memories are products of the imagination. This is to say, as do you, that explaining them is problematic; but discounting them as fantasies is equally hard, and feels intuitively wrong...to me.

I'm with you. How can anyone know whether these things are real or imaginary? Intuit, guess, speculate ... sure. But KNOW with utter certainty?
That they are all distractions from Self, however...of that I am certain.

And I think this is exactly why Buddha chose not to answer those (in)famous 14 questions.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2420
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:20 pm

I'm not sure how something that is fundamental to Self is necessarily a distraction from Self. I suppose the pursuit of OBE's as an escape could be problematic, but the experience could still be profound. I guess I take this perspective simply because in my view, what ever survives the death of the physical form, such as consciousness, must be unique to the Self that, for a time, perceived life through form. Direct experience of a perception of being that is not dependent upon life in form may be a significant step in awakening from thought identification and brain specific perspective. NDE's and OBE's may be excursions into a world of experience that is just different from that of physical form. There may well be many such realms in the infinity of life.

The fact that we are in this world, generally without memories of other worlds, is not all that surprising to me. That we live life though physical forms, with a brain only capable of storing locally generated memories, and that we are strongly attached to the thoughts generated and stored in that brain, make perfect sense that extra-physical perception is uncommon. Even those of the non-dual philosophy, being somewhat freer from thought than most, may still be experientially attached to the physical-form perception of being. It's only when the physical structures are transcended, such as in a NDE or OBE, that more subtle perceptions are recognizable.

As to why only some have NDE's when clinically dead, it may be just a matter of memory - much like our nightly dreams that are lost upon awakening. As the experience of an NDE is one that is not dependent upon the physical brain, it may not automatically register there. Consider one under anesthesia. No one remembers dreams under such conditions. Is it because certain brain functions are suppressed? Brain waves have certain known frequencies. "Altered" states of consciousness manifest when frequencies change. It may be that perception in/of non-physical states requires a frequency specific to a given non-physical world - one that the brain is not commonly capable of generating.

It is also reported by many NDEr's that they didn't remember their OBE experience until some time later. This may be due to the distraction of whatever trauma that was experienced, and they needed time to heal from.

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:16 am

My life in form as "Andy," and all memories, events and activities associated with it are trivial to Self. What was Eckhart's Interview title on September 11, 2001?..."Even the Sun will Die" Wearing the mantle of the loon, himself...how can they be anything but distractions, or perhaps, "ripples" -- even those on some other "cosmic level" or "soul" plane?

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:38 am

I'm not sure how something that is fundamental to Self is necessarily a distraction from Self


How is this fundamental to the Self?

with a brain only capable of storing locally generated memories


The brain is only capable of storing 'locally generated memories' because the brain is limited to the confines and space of the body, and the body in turn is limited and confined in space, and therefore only local. Whatever memory the brain has is the product of experience by the body in limited space and time. The brain has no memory of experience prior to the existence of the body because the brain was created when the body was created, and the body was created in time and space.

what ever survives the death of the physical form


Is the body alive in the first place? Is it's existence not relative to That which knows it, like a puppet animated by strings?
What aspect of the body do you consider to be the Self?

perceived life through form


Is it the body which perceives or That which perceives the body? :P Is this putting the cart before the horse?

Direct experience of a perception of being that is not dependent upon life in form


Do you know the Self by the body or is it the other way round? Do you not know the body because you are the Self who is awareness?


The fact that we are in this world


Is this really a fact, or is it an assumption? What is in the world but the body? The body is confined by space, is the Self the body? Can the Self be said to be inside or outside, up or down? Where is the Self?


It's only when the physical structures are transcended, such as in a NDE or OBE, that more subtle perceptions are recognizable.


It is only by Self- enquiry that the false idea that 'I am the body' is transcended.
User avatar
Ananda
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:35 am
Location: Manchester, England

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:46 am

Sighclone wrote:My life in form as "Andy," and all memories, events and activities associated with it are trivial to Self.

Well, that's not an unreasonable point of view - and one that I would not disagree with in the ultimate scheme of things (as applied to this self of course :wink: ). But can one fairly say that this now moment is trivial; or that life in form is a random event and without purpose?

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ralph » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:13 am

Where is the self ?


Birth and death are simply devices, because neither birth is true nor death is true. We have been before birth, so how can birth be true? And we will be after death, so how can death be true? Only one thing is true: the consciousness that comes with you through birth and goes with you through death — perhaps birth is a door, and death too! Perhaps they are the same door, just your direction is different.
~ Osho

A man of realization knows there is no death. Death is a fiction, you have never died. Yes, you have changed your form many times. You have changed your house many times, many times. But you have never died. Have you ever seen yourself dying? It is always somebody else who dies
~ Osho
Ralph
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:08 am

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:18 am

Didn't really answer the question, but thanks for the effort, Osho :wink:
User avatar
Ananda
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:35 am
Location: Manchester, England

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:46 am

Ananda, I can't imagine how you managed to so mis-perceive my post.

Post by Ananda

I'm not sure how something that is fundamental to Self is necessarily a distraction from Self

How is this fundamental to the Self?

Consciousness, Self awareness.

with a brain only capable of storing locally generated memories


The brain is only capable of storing 'locally generated memories' because the brain is limited to the confines and space of the body, and the body in turn is limited and confined in space, and therefore only local. Whatever memory the brain has is the product of experience by the body in limited space and time. The brain has no memory of experience prior to the existence of the body because the brain was created when the body was created, and the body was created in time and space.


That's a reasonable take, but wasn't that my point?


what ever survives the death of the physical form


Is the body alive in the first place? Is it's existence not relative to That which knows it, like a puppet animated by strings?
What aspect of the body do you consider to be the Self?

A: Yes the body is alive - alive with the same Essence that animates all form. It may be temporary in expression, but like all appearances is a form a life expressed.

B: That which survives the physical form is that perceiving essence which preceded it. Sort of like looking through a lens and somehow imagining that the lens was what was seeing and the view was all there was to see.

perceived life through form


Is it the body which perceives or That which perceives the body? :P Is this putting the cart before the horse?

Here's a bigger piece of the quote.
what ever survives the death of the physical form, such as consciousness, must be unique to the Self that, for a time, perceived life through form.

Again, as above, no where have I remotely suggested that "That" is born of the body, but merely perceives through it while focused in form.


The fact that we are in this world

Is this really a fact, or is it an assumption? What is in the world but the body? The body is confined by space, is the Self the body? Can the Self be said to be inside or outside, up or down? Where is the Self?

Wow, that presumes a lot. It seems a bit much for such a minor transgression. How about "the fact that we are "focused" in this world"? I know you have read my posts in this forum. Do you honestly believe that that I could mean what you suggest?


It's only when the physical structures are transcended, such as in a NDE or OBE, that more subtle perceptions are recognizable.


It is only by Self- enquiry that the false idea that 'I am the body' is transcended.

Really? You might find a healthy debate on that belief from those who have direct experience on the issue, or have come to that realization by other means.

Ananda, you are one of the brightest contributors to this forum. I am not sure why you are taking such a hard line with my view. Just because we may differ somewhat in our perspective on the nature of being does not mean we cannot respect and consider what the other offers.

WW
User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6280
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:11 am

That's a reasonable take, but wasn't that my point?


Just expanding on your point.


no where have I remotely suggested that "That" is born of the body


I didn't suggest you suggested such a thing. :)


Wow, that presumes a lot


How? I was asking questions, not making statements.


"the fact that we are "focused" in this world"?


The body is certainly focused in the world, because the senses point outwards. I wonder, is the Self focused in the world or is the Self only ever aware of itself? Does the Self only seem focused in the world because the reflection of it's light on the sense organs and mind?

Really? You might find a healthy debate on that belief from those who have direct experience on the issue, or have come to that realization by other means.


The original quote suggested that one must somehow escape the body physically (NDE, OBE) in order to realize that the Self is not the body, but this would assume that the Self is in some part connected to or indeed is the body until such an experience reveals that this is not so. One does not need to escape the body in order to realize that it is not the Self - because this suggests that one is bound by it (the body), one only need remove the idea ' I am the body' by direct Self-enquiry. I put it that yes, only by direct enquiry into one's own nature can Self- ignorance be removed.

I am not sure why you are taking such a hard line with my view


Just picking your brain :D A blunt sword is a useless one!


respect and consider what the other offers


I have both respected and considered your views, which is why I posted my response to it. :D

Thank you for the compliment.
User avatar
Ananda
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:35 am
Location: Manchester, England

Next

Return to Beyond the Physical

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests