NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...

Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:27 am

All good. One sword sharpens the other. I have not had, in my memory, a NDE, nor an OBE. I did go through a "Life-between-Lives" past life regression with a direct pupil of Michael Newton. Several "past lives" appeared, and also the time "between lives." Most of it was reasonably clear, and quite interesting. Can I state categorically that those images did not get created in my temporal mind as "Andy?" No. Their source is not clear to me. This hypnotic session was before my kensho in 2008, by the way.

Is it possible to "astral travel?" I believe so, but only from the authenticity I pick up in reading several accounts. Does a near death experience allow one access to "other levels" of consciousness. I also believe this, again, not from personal experience. My use of the word "distraction" was mainly from Jac O'Keeffe, but also from Eckhart. They are wonderful topics, and as WW says, possibly very new and profound. And even fun. But whatever is going on there, and here, is truly trivial in the scope of Source. Doesn't mean we should not love and care for ourselves, our families, our friends and our planet, and do so with great vigor and dedication. I have found much delight and fulfillment in doing so. These activities may have great meaning for certain individuals. And no meaning for others.

We can talk about the wonder of Being at any level...I particularly like the pointers which emerge from the study of quantum microparticle behavior. There may be equivalent pointers, perhaps even more poignant ones from astral travel. But, like Blake "To see a World in a Grain of Sand / And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand / And Eternity in an hour," is sufficient for me.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:41 pm

samadhi wrote:I found Deepak Chopra's book 'Life after death' (at least I think that's what it's called) very enlightening. In the words of Chopra himself : "neurons are instruments of communication. You are not the instrument but the user of the instrument. The user is non-local, the instrument is local - like Beethoven coming through the radio."

So yeah - consciousness is non-local, but the body - which it expresses itself through for a time - is local. Take the body out of the equation and obviously consciousness can no longer express through it, but it doesn't 'destroy' consciousness any more than switching off a radio 'destroys' the radio signals.

I hope that makes some sense.


Thank you, of course that makes perfect sense.
However as you quote Chopra- he says that neurons are instuments of communication. Ok, when you have NDE or OBE there are no neurons. So you are basically communicating without NEURONS, without the instrument? And Neurons are not only instument of verbal communication, they are also insturment of internal communication with yourself. They are instument of thoughts. You think, they activate. Most people say that they communite with thoughts(not voice) when they have NDE or OBE. So, where is the instrument? How come they are able to produce thoughts, communiate without instrument? That's the non-logical part of the issue.

Even this thing that you say

Sure, parts of the brain light up when specific thoughts arise, but this is little more than footprints appearing in the sand...it demonstrates that something has been there, but says nothing about what or how.


something has been there.....lights up when specific thoughts arise, footprints appearing in the sand...Ok...but why? I mean it's so unnatrual to suppose that....as I said if the conscisousness can be without the brain, can communicate and have all cool functions without the brain and if the brain is only indicator sooo, why would you need this indicator? That's so unlogical you know....why don't we have empty heads or at least heads only full with thick skull so we can better protected? It just doesn't make sense the brain to be only indicator. And if it's not only indicator, it's an instrument and then we go back to non-logical issue number 1, how can I do this and this and this and that and this and that WITHOUT the instrument? If I can do it WITHOUT the insturment, then why would I need the instrument? It's as simple as that.
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:58 pm

Thank you WW,

brain only capable of storing locally generated memories.


What do you mean by that?
If I understand correctly, according to you when we are in the non-physical world(read p.s.) we shouldn't remember anything when we're back in the physical world and this doesn't make sense if OBE or NDE is true, because people who had OBE or NDE do remeber not locally generated memories. You know, that's strange, really strange,because judging from the OBE,NDE stories, when one leaves the body, he still has access to all memories and everything, he still can access memory (memory stored from his normal life in the physical world, he can remember what he ate 1 week ago while out of the body), he remembers every moment when out of the body and later when back in body he uses the BRAIN to access the memory. That's soooo.....not logical and weird.
So this leads to the logical thoughts -if consciousness can replicate all the brain functions without using the brain we go to the dilema ,,if I can do everything without the instrument why do I need the damn instrument, it only takes space and it's useless and life would be 1000 easier with all complications that usually happen with this so fragile insturment (brain),,.

The fact that we are in this world, generally without memories of other worlds, is not all that surprising to me


Yes, this even leads to further unlogical thoughts. If when having OBE,NDE one remebers everything after that ( as in the stories), then the consicousness can store memories. So why the memories of other worlds are not stored and are automatically deleted when we enter the body in the first place?
How come I can have NDE and have memories after that, but when I go into a baby body, embrion or whatever, memories are auto deleted. That's a second non-logical issue.
If we summarize all non-logical issues we go to the more logical assumption that NDE, OBE are entirely generated by BRAIN. And this also leads to logical assumption that we don't know as much for the brain as we would want to know.

p.s.
And just one thougt on a different topic - I believe it's all physical, I mean the Astral and MEntal bodies , those are physical if they exist, OBE and NDE are experiences in a physical reality(if they exist). This is in regards to the usage of physical forms in your post(which assumes that there are non-physical forms). The interaction between physical and non-physical is another topic. But even if we assume that the non-physical mental body is connected with non-physical silver cord to my physical brain, it's very strange, this opens the topic how can non-physical interact with physical.
WW, if you meant matter that's a different story. Physical does include matter, but not only matter is physical. All types of energy, photons, quarks, gravity is physical in my opinion (which is changeable).
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:07 pm

Many tend to suppose the existence of an astral body to account for the sense perception and mind when out of body, this second 'insturment'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_body


IF we summarize all non-logical issues we go to the fact that NDE, OBE are entirely generated by BRAIN.


I'm inclined to agree.
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:14 pm

Ananda wrote:Many tend to suppose the existence of an astral body to account for the sense perception and mind when out of body, this second 'insturment'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_body


IF we summarize all non-logical issues we go to the fact that NDE, OBE are entirely generated by BRAIN.


I'm inclined to agree.


Thank you Ananda,
Yes, Astral Body and Mental Body, they go together and are the energetic replication of our regular body and brain(mental body includes all brain functions).
Having an astral and mental body, means that we have them IN US, in our bodies, here, while I'm writing this right now I have an astral body and mental in me(those are connected with a silver cord to my regular body and brain 8) ). This leads to unlogical issue number 1, why would I have of two instruments that have the same functions (let's take brain and mind body) ? One is obsolete + I would be glad to have only mental body with all brain functions believe me, brain is very fragile sometimes and damages easily. If we imagine ourselves with only mental bodies without brains, we would have many many many advantages...
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Ananda » Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:10 pm

Well they tend to say that there are many 'planes' of existence, or realms, where there are multiple bodies. So there would be this physical plane, and also an astral plane, for instance. If I recall correctly, all of the bodies are connected together somehow. I won't comment any more on it though because I'm largely ignorant of the specifics, suffice it to say that I take it all largely with a pinch of salt, and would happily leave it in the 'New Age' category or pseudoscience.
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby enigma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:10 pm

I like the original question, though not so jazzed about most of the answers. The notion that some sort of a physical mechanism is required in order for experience to happen separates experience from the consciousness that experiences it and places a physical device 'out there' somewhere. If that were the case, we might ask where all this physical machinery came from that is so necessary for consciousness to have an experience. Did God create that stuff and rest on the seventh day, or are we beyond all that?

Experience is happening in Consciousness, which includes the experience of body and brain and neurons firing, and so of course there's nothing to stop the experience of astral travel, NDEs and OBEs and life after death happening as well, or any sort of woo woo mind state, psychic power or 'miracle' that can be imagined. Consciousness is it's content and there isn't something outside of this content of experience that is required in order for experience to happen, and so all potential is present.

What we call creation is happening now. Creation and perception are the same, and as such, nothing created causes creation to happen. All of it is an expression, which is why I never use science, or any other experience, to validate that which is prior to creation. We're enamored of our logic and reason, and it can be useful to dismantle some false conclusions, but we can't actually derive any true conclusions from it since it can't be talking about anything but creation itself, which in the largest context is subjectivity. Ultimately, all attempts to be objective collapse into this radical subjectivity.

Though it comes with it's own boundaries, it can be fun to contemplate why the universe works at it does from this subjective creative perspective rather than an objective scientific one. Experience is about dualistic movement, and so what we 'want' is for a continuous movement between the poles to happen. We have a continual movement from light to dark, from hot to cold, birth to death, etc. Would it be better to have 12 hour or 48 hour days or is 24 about right? Would you like for it to cycle from winter to summer and back in 6 months or 24 months or is 12 about right in general? I'm suggesting that the pace of the movement, as well as the movement itself, is about right for our experiential capacity because it's being created as part of the experience itself.

Likewise, we like to understand how all this stuff that we create happens, and so we create answers. Oh, the reason there is day and night is because we live on a rock and this rock spins around in circles. Oh, the reason there are seasons is because the rock is also spinning around a ball of fire and gets closer and farther away. Then we experience our answers and everything seems reasonable and logical and can be 'proven'. This is great fun!

Another question we ask is, how is it that I am experiencing from 'here'? Oh, because there is a separate body here with sense organs. How is it I can know that? Oh, because there's a biological mechanism in my head that has some complex neuronal activity. I haven't finished writing the story about how all that is sposed to work yet, but it's fun pretending to objectively explore it while I create it.
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:06 am

Birth and death are simply devices, because neither birth is true nor death is true. We have been before birth, so how can birth be true? And we will be after death, so how can death be true? Only one thing is true: the consciousness that comes with you through birth and goes with you through death — perhaps birth is a door, and death too! Perhaps they are the same door, just your direction is different.
~ Osho


Having experienced nde I really like this ^ quote, and the logic of the radio vs radio transmission analogy.

I like the quote because not long ago (in something of a frustration) I tried to paint the experience of the tunnel from the outside view. Stepping outside of my experience in a sense to tryto see how it would have looked from the outside. I created the picture in a half conscious half inspired state of mind and had a scene of mountains and rivers and beach and sea at the bottom and a kaleidescope of translucent colour streaming up the middle. I also wrote translucent 'messages' on it. For me, like life, you can only see the messages in certain lights and when you are ready to notice them.

They hold messages like - We all have - mountains to climb - rivers to cross - seas to swim - fears to face - lessons to learn on the 'earthly' part of the painting.
Around the glow outside of the tunnel words like transmutation - life is eternal - heaven is life without ego - we are one - love thyself - together forever - there are no differences - eternal love - love is life - embrace now
In the centre around the 'experience' of the tunnel is no thing but love and compassion - rejoice in the freedom of love

The 'layers' of complexity of it, although its a niaive painting are (for me) like life itself.

Some people seem to be drawn to it and calmed by it, it resonates for them and brings them a stillness.

Just like the layers and 'hidden' messages waiting to be found in life, the painting has a 'life' of its own to be experienced and either accepted or judged.

What blew me away was when my son-in-law walked in and quietly said to my daughter "Why has your mum got a vagina on her wall?"

When I looked again with this new perspective I realised - in some lights the transmuted external view of the tunnel looked like a vulva in all its glory, painted on the sky!!

Hence, I 'get' the quote above. :roll:
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:51 pm

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet Act I, Scene v

Science commonly structures the universe in three dimensions. But the math behind string theory requires twelve. What if the astral plane uses three or four of those?

My point is that we need a better understanding of the universe before we can declare that consciousness is restricted to mental activity in neurons.

Here is a summary of some recent study: Psychological Review 2009, Vol. 116, No. 1, 252–282
by authors LeGrand and Ruby, title of the article is:

What Is Self-Specific? Theoretical Investigation and Critical Review of
Neuroimaging Results


The authors propose a paradigm shift in the investigation of the self. Synthesizing neuroimaging results
from studies investigating the self, the authors first demonstrate that self-relatedness evaluation involves
a wide cerebral network, labeled E-network, comprising the medial prefrontal cortex, precuneus,
temporoparietal junction, and temporal poles. They further show that this E-network is also recruited
during resting state, others’ mind reading, memory recall, and reasoning. According to these data, (a) the
profile of activation of the E-network demonstrates no preference for the self, and (b) the authors suggest
that activity in this network can be explained by the involvement of cognitive processes common to all
the tasks recruiting it: inferential processing and memory recall. On this basis, they conclude that
standard ways to tackle the self by considering self-evaluation do not target the self in its specificity.
Instead, they argue that self-specificity characterizes the subjective perspective, which is not intrinsically
self-evaluative but rather relates any represented object to the representing subject. They further propose
that such self-specific subject– object relation is anchored to the sensorimotor integration of efference
with reafference (i.e., the motor command of the subject’s action and its sensory consequence in the
external world).


We do not have the answers yet...

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby kiki » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:32 pm

Well, what could be more clear than that, Andy? :wink:
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:54 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:When I looked again with this new perspective I realized - in some lights the transmuted external view of the tunnel looked like a vulva in all its glory, painted on the sky!!


Hallelujah! :lol: Vulvatissimo !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think we just found the answer..and I like it... :lol:
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:43 pm

Well, what could be more clear than that, Andy?


Exactly. My good friend Gary Weber and other nondual teachers are exploring the neurochemical manifestation of awakening. And someday, they may be able to announce something like this:

Ahem. We know exactly what brain areas are active in a fully abiding, Self-realized Being. And we know what frequencies of brain waves are present in these areas. They are as follows; Yada, yada and yada.


And that will be wonderful. For those who care about the footprint of Source in the brain. And all the details of those yadas. My question concerns truth and suffering. I do not see how all that technical brainwave data, while true, will contribute to the awakening of the guy sitting next to you on the bus. Or, frankly, anyone else.

I prefer satsangs and books as outside pointers, and, of course, self-enquiry and grace as the final authorities.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby enigma » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:52 am

The brain is IN the Source, isn't it?
The footprints are found by turning around and looking slightly downward. They're left by the One looking.
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby Sighclone » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:15 am

The footprints are found by turning around and looking slightly downward. They're left by the One looking.


How lovely is this...thanks, enigma.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: NDE + Consciousness leaving the body = doesn't fit?

Postby gen6 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:49 pm

enigma wrote:The brain is IN the Source, isn't it?
The footprints are found by turning around and looking slightly downward. They're left by the One looking.


It cannot be proven that the brain is IN the source :)
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