Is There Really an Afterlife?

OBE's, NDE's, lucid dreams, and the like...
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rideforever
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by rideforever » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:55 am

Leon wrote:The advances being made by neurologists into the nature of consciousness are extremely important. They will eventually provide a conclusive answer regarding the existence of an afterlife. Too bad, religious believers.
What can this be but a belief ?

Typical "scientist". Holding all these beliefs inside ... "Science doesn't know the answer but it WILL soon".

Ridiculous isn't it.

A true believer.

Just another generation who think they are immune from human stupidity, but proving it through their actions.

It is only this stupidity that you wake up from.


Atheist ... Christian. It is all the same. Your mind clings to some beliefs. And you think your beliefs are "different."

Watch mankind sitting in a bath of his own s**t, year after year.


Clinging to your beliefs, hating those with others ... it just goes on and on and on and on.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

Leon
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by Leon » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:03 pm

Rideforever, I will try to respond reasonably to your rant.

There are two kinds of beliefs. One kind is based on evidence. An example is Science's presentation of massive evidence to support the belief that we humans evolved through millions of years of evolution.

A second kind of belief is called "faith." This is belief without any evidence to support it, the religious kind. For example, belief in the creation of the world and life by God nine thousand years ago.

The survvival of the individual personality after death depends upon the nature of consciousness. If consciousness is independent of the brain, perhaps introduced from outside, that is evidence of an afterlife. If consciousness is purely a product of the brain and dies with the brain, that is conclusive evidence that an afterlife does not exist. It is reasonable to suppose that neurologists will someday answer this question.

I do not hate religious believers or anyone else. I simply argue that religious beliefs without supporting evidence should be rejected.

Best to you,
Leon
Freed from religion

arel
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by arel » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:37 pm

Leon wrote:The survvival of the individual personality after death depends upon the nature of consciousness. If consciousness is independent of the brain, perhaps introduced from outside, that is evidence of an afterlife. If consciousness is purely a product of the brain and dies with the brain, that is conclusive evidence that an afterlife does not exist. It is reasonable to suppose that neurologists will someday answer this question.

I do not hate religious believers or anyone else. I simply argue that religious beliefs without supporting evidence should be rejected.
Hello Leon. I have supporting evidence in my own experience that consciousness creates "the brain" rather then "the brain" creates consciousness. Any theory and evidence you present of the brain and it's ties to consciousness, it all comes in the presence of consciousness. So I conclude through concrete evidence that it is here with or without the brain.

I also have prove of afterlife. When I or you die, what, if anything remains, can you contemplate it and state what you think? There seems to be that which never changes. So "afterlife" to me is not originally meant to mean somewhere in the clouds with angels, or devils, or even 40 virgins, but rather THAT which is after life. It's a pointer for contemplation. What do you think?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:56 pm

Definition: Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion
If exploring evidence is done so as a means to an end of understanding, it must be recognised that it will always be relying on past events and projecting to a future time of understanding, which will always be moving because life energy is.

It can only be lived and experienced NOW as it is, when it is, how it is, whatever it is for whatever reason it is, even if all or none of those things are understood.

Understanding it is a personal journey, and optional.

Eternally NOW.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:08 pm

This may or may not be out of context, but it 'feels right' here.
HermitLoon » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:30 pm

We come from foreverness and return to foreverness - and in between, with strong doses of the survival instinct and lots of conditioning, the mind/body does its thing.
Acceptance allows a joyful journey.
Whether this is a fact, a wisdom or a belief or 'whatever' it resonates and as far as can be 'noticed' observed or tested it's true.

The formless from which all 'matter' arose is as eternal as we can see it / measure it to be and we have not found the 'ends' of it.
As it is within, it is without.
As it is above, it is below.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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ashley72
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:07 am

Arel wrote:Hello Leon. I have supporting evidence in my own experience that consciousness creates "the brain" rather then "the brain" creates consciousness. Any theory and evidence you present of the brain and it's ties to consciousness, it all comes in the presence of consciousness. So I conclude through concrete evidence that it is here with or without the brain.

I also have prove of afterlife. When I or you die, what, if anything remains, can you contemplate it and state what you think? There seems to be that which never changes.
What you have is a merely a "possibility" that so called "Consciousness" is primary to everything. Every living person has a functioning brain. I can put you in an MRI and confirm that very quickly. I can also confirm specific activation of different parts of brain when performing different tasks. I can also put an EEG on your scalp and measure weak signals between 30 -100 cycles when your actively thinking. Any pondering of the concept of Consciousness, or directing your attentional focus to stimulus in the NOW...... all happens with a functioning brain present.

Arel, Are you willing to take this discussion "to the edge of the ledge".... to see what the observable Universe has to say about that speculation of yours? :lol:

tod
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by tod » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:22 am

ashley72 wrote:
Arel, Are you willing to take this discussion "to the edge of the ledge".... to see what the observable Universe has to say about that speculation of yours? :lol:
The "observable universe" from the "edge" of said universe is seen as an observation in mind/consciousness. Has this been seen?

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SandyJoy
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:59 am

arel wrote:Hello Leon. I have supporting evidence in my own experience that consciousness creates "the brain" rather then "the brain" creates consciousness. Any theory and evidence you present of the brain and it's ties to consciousness, it all comes in the presence of consciousness. So I conclude through concrete evidence that it is here with or without the brain.

I also have prove of afterlife. When I or you die, what, if anything remains, can you contemplate it and state what you think? There seems to be that which never changes. So "afterlife" to me is not originally meant to mean somewhere in the clouds with angels, or devils, or even 40 virgins, but rather THAT which is after life. It's a pointer for contemplation. What do you think?
Very nice Arel. Yes, I agree. When someone dies Awareness goes right on being Aware. That is one of the most beautiful things one notices at the loss of a loved one. They are, in many ways, still here as the self that included them is still here. It is a wonderful and an authentic revelation, really, one that releases us from the grips of a belief in limited objective system forever.

And when the body leaves us, they did not take a chunk of that Awareness-I-Am with them when their brain quit working---The Self that knew them is still here, so they really don't go anywhere. Besides that, we don't look out and see gaping hole in Life where that body once stood. If that body was the possessor of awareness then it would take that little bit of awareness it possessed with it. Clearly, it does not, or there would be a hell of a lot of gaping holes where all those billions of folks over thousands of years have died and taken their share of awareness with them.

Life and Awareness are One and Life does not die.

And Awareness is never not aware because It is the function of Something that has no beginning and no end and comes from no thing.

Which is exactly why no one can prove where Awareness is---they do not know where It 'comes from' or how it began---because it does not come from matter. If it came from matter it would be easy to prove that. But, it does not; It is not the substance of matter--- all matter exists within Awareness. Its pretty easy to see, once you see it. Kind of like the drawing of the Old hag and if you change your perspective you can see a lovely young lady right there in the same view. Its not magic or belief, it is a shift in perspective and 'greater understanding' and we who have seen this shift happen, know what we see.

Nothing exists without the Awareness to see those 'things' called material world forms, times, space objective tangible stuff. The brain is matter and matter does not produce awareness, matter does not create---all creating and all things arise within this Awareness which is the function of One Immaterial Divine Power that exists before this world was.

I do not believe that we have evolved from apes---and really no one has proven it. That does not mean there is only one other choice about this which is the biblical adam and eve scenario. There is another way to see who we are and to understand what Is and neither evolution of the story of Eden is correct---although, the mythical story of Adam and Eve certainly has more depth and power and meaning and symbolism than the came from apes thing which leaves out anything called soul, spirit, quantum particles, photons and the why or how of the whole universe entire.

Life is eternal and never ending and our Identity is Life Itself, unbound to human expectations.

Awareness is primary. That is for sure. And speaking of edges of Universes---the Voyager I and II Telescopes are now almost there---How remarkable the Entire Universe it has flown through is our very Self Awareness being explored. That, out there, is Here within This Awareness I Am, or I could not know, explore, have telescopes seeing that edge of Universe, if that were not so. Symbolically, as living metaphor within this Infinite Self-Awareness-- we may be reaching the very edge and the very beginning of True Self-discovery.

Anyway, I think you said it very well, Arel and thank you for that.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:23 am

Image
Left: Neurons in a (mouse) brain. Right: The universe with illuminated galaxies, simulated by a team of astrophysicists.

From Clifford Pickover’s Reality Carnival

The universe is a mouse?
Whether this 'awareness' is accessible only within the neurons in our brains, or the universe as it 'is'
Or is both mirroring and/or responding to each other in awareness...
we do not need to know the how and the why of it to employ it
anymore than we do to breathe air through its interaction with our lungs.

Live it or fear it, no one can choose for you.

For me, this illustration made me laugh and smile, it is very similar to how I 'saw/experienced' the spiderweb intracies of energy in motion interacting with 'choices' - the 'light' flowing freely racing along joyously, bumping into 'globs' (fear) that shot the energy off in other directions, creating new 'pathways' - isn't that what happens in our brains? Isn't that what happens in our universe?

And no, I wasn't 'influenced' by it - I didn't have the internet in 1982 - unless time is really spooky and I 'was' :shock: - and if that 'turns out' to be the case, so be it. I still will have lived, loved, laughed and cried one moment at a time in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm. :D

It's also reminded how much we laughed when after great artistic 'endeavour' to express the nuances of the 'tunnel and light' as if they could be viewed from the physical 'outside' pov, and the simple wisdoms learned in the experience by writing them at seemingly random angles in transluscent paint that can only be seen if you are in the 'right' perspective angle and flow of 'light' and be willing to notice them; I thought I'd done a really (limited, basic, juvenile in terms of 'art') good expression of it, and hung it on my lounge room wall.

and then my son in law walked in and whispered to my daughter "How come your Mum's got a huge painting of a vagina on her wall?' :shock:

When I looked at it again - from his 'persepective, knowledge and understanding' I could see it just as he had - OMG!!
On sooooo many levels that exploded even more trails of 'light' (in absolutely impersonal laughter).

It is what it is, however you perceive it to be.
... and yes, that's all okay too.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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ashley72
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:52 am

tod wrote:
ashley72 wrote:
Arel, Are you willing to take this discussion "to the edge of the ledge".... to see what the observable Universe has to say about that speculation of yours? :lol:
The "observable universe" from the "edge" of said universe is seen as an observation in mind/consciousness. Has this been seen?
Can you separate the brain functioning from this experience?

Clearly No.

Therefore, on what basis can you conclude Consciousness is somehow primary to brain function. Other than a massive misunderstanding of the neural correlation of attention.

Like I said earlier in another thread. How come conscious perception can change when a objective
Stimulus like the Necker Cube does not.

Or what about Change Blindness, when the objective stimulus changes but conscious perception does not?

Please explain this phenomena whilst holding onto the concept of unitary consciousness???

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SandyJoy
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:26 am

Wowzy wow! Look at those two images Jen posted! That is very wonderful. You know the old wise men of the Essenes, the Gnositics and Jewish masters of the Kabbalah all believed that we are cells in the Body of Godhead. I think that is probably closer to the Truth than the "evolving' fish or ape idea --- Nice images Jen, thank you---Isn't that just remarkable how similar those are!! Brilliant, and Beautiful.

Also,
ashley72 wrote:Can you separate the brain functioning from this experience?

Clearly No.
That is NOT a "Clearly No" at all---who says that is clear to anyone, even your revered scientists have not proven this, so it is NOT "clear" at all.
You have no proof as to what happens when your brian stops working---you really do not. You have no idea whether one continues to exist after the brain dies or not---You really do not know, and based on science, they don't know either.

Personally, from a higher view, which is possible, one can see a lot more and it becomes easier to see the All Inclusiveness of the Divine Light We Are--- Science is still looking from the limited, objective view---they think they are the possessor of awareness from the start of their search---they have not put aside the first mistake---so the whole equation from there on has got to be wrong.

It's like the scientists start with 2+2=5 and think they will end up with the right answer. The don't have a clue yet as to what the Principle is. They really need to find the Principle first and then do the work and then it will unfold for them to see correctly.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:49 am

the survvival of the individual personality after death depends upon the nature of consciousness.
The expression of individual personality can only BE here and NOW.

What the 'being' of it or HERE of it, or the NOW of it 'is', is constantly changing.

Understanding it through perspectives is optional.

It IS what it is.
Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion.... just one definition among many definitions of 'proof'.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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ashley72
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:09 am

Sandyjoy wrote: That is NOT a "Clearly No" at all---who says that is clear to anyone, even your revered scientists have not proven this, so it is NOT "clear" at all.
There is plenty of objective evidence to show that our conscious attention is a product of brain function. Go read some neuroscience in respect to the neural correlates of Consciousness or neural correlates of Attention... and you will find a range of studies which link certain parts of the brain involved with conscious attention & the like.

Image

On the other hand, there is not one scrap of objective evidence that Consciousness functions independently of brain function. Accept for subjective unverifiable personal testimony that an NDE'r travelled to another dimension. These nonsense assumptions about Unity Consciousness is called a mere possibility of conceptual thought.... with a probability of "0" because it has never been actually observed by anybody in an independent objective way.
Sandyjoy wrote: You have no proof as to what happens when your brian stops working---you really do not. You have no idea whether one continues to exist after the brain dies or not---You really do not know, and based on science, they don't know either.
Actually they do. Its call brain-death and all cognitive functioning including conscious awareness ceases. Its due to total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of brain oxygenation. This is undisputed objective evidence, which has been verified scientifically & independently on countless occasions. The probability of this fact is "1".

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ashley72
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:25 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Image
Left: Neurons in a (mouse) brain. Right: The universe with illuminated galaxies, simulated by a team of astrophysicists.

From Clifford Pickover’s Reality Carnival

The universe is a mouse?
This does not prove Universal Consciousness.... it proves that our visual perceptions cannot always be trusted. Clearly we know the vastly different structures of these two objective scenes. However, our perceptions can be easily tricked into mistakenly perceiving & thinking the structures of these two very different scenes are similar. When in fact they are not that similar.

Image

One might think that the man-hole is real... but in fact its structure is an illusion. The stone pavers are merely coloured black. :lol:

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ashley72
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Re: Is There Really an Afterlife?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:32 am

Leon wrote:The advances being made by neurologists into the nature of consciousness are extremely important. They will eventually provide a conclusive answer regarding the existence of an afterlife. Too bad, religious believers.
Leon,

Here is a link to some interesting work on the "hard" problem of Consciousness by a neuroscientist.....using a Sensorimotor approach.

"Why red things look red:

Image

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