Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Sighclone » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:40 pm

lucy wrote:
surrendering has a subtle energy of volition which can seemingly veil the Truth.
That statement itself is subtle. Yes, it is an act of volition to surrender. In a way, the yielding is a choice of non-action or release...kind of like reaching up to turn off the switch. But operating in a state of consciousness which is not surrendered means having the capacity to act...to surrender.

I think most of this "surrender" mode, as ET uses it, is directed to his primary audience, the mostly unconscious group of readers, especially of ANE. For those readers, surrender is like relaxing all the tension, and this action will seem less spiritual than it is simply physiological.

Surrendering to the anxiety of a personal loss or the anger we feel at someone else can be a portal, too...or not?

tell us more, lucy...interesting topic...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:17 pm

UGK is all the time attempting to strip you bare. He would scoff at Eckhart's way of putting things as well as all other teachers because although there may or may not be something behind what they are saying, the language they use is often detrimental as it gives you hope, visions or impressions of the 'natural state', which prevent it from being realised directly. He would say they are giving you 'comforters', which is what has been mentioned about Eckhart's teaching by myself and others here.

The very fact they are going on a stage or writing books perpetuates the idea that they have something you don't. There is a video of him with some Dutch interviewer and Byron Katie and when she tries to explain her method, The Work, he just dismisses it and says "politicians... gimmicks".

Although Eckhart was the first spiritual teacher I came across and the one who you could say triggered something, it wasn't until a year later when I came across UGK that it fully fell into place. It wasn't comfortable to begin with because he denies you EVERYTHING. Yet something in me respected him enormously for that and couldn't turn away because for the first time in my life I was hearing someone strip it all bare and show it all as it is. You can't really get a mind-based handle on his 'teaching' the way you can with most of the others. You either get it or you are repelled by him. Even those who hung around him for 20-30 years, although they kept coming back, they had to admit they didn't really understand. With Eckhart, it's much more likely that you could go away believing you have got it when it's just an intellectual understanding.

Although I stuck with Eckhart for a year, I could never quite reconcile how that could be me. Is this the language you must use? Is this how you must behave at all times? One of the main things UGK revealed to me was the total freedom of this state. He often stresses you are unique and that you will never know how you will express. I'd never heard Eckhart say that. Through UGK, I realised it was possible to speak about this in a more plain, natural, everyday manner and all behaviour was acceptable. Before UGK, being into music, I was also heavily drawn to Bob Marley and the reggae producer Lee 'Scratch' Perry. For anyone who isn't aware, Lee Perry is considered crazy and off-the-wall but to me there is something else there. Through figures like Perry and UGK, I came to see there really is no telling how this will express itself.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by lucy » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:52 pm

Sighclone wrote:I think most of this "surrender" mode, as ET uses it, is directed to his primary audience, the mostly unconscious group of readers, especially of ANE. For those readers, surrender is like relaxing all the tension, and this action will seem less spiritual than it is simply physiological.
I agree. As long as there is sombody there to surrender, it can't be true surrender. (The space that you are is being inhabited by the egoic identity) . I think ET suggests surrender as a technique to help beginners disidentify with the egoic sense of self. As I'm sure we all know resisting anything strengthens it. But if what you are trying to disindentify from is the one practicing the technique, what is the point? As you pointed out Andy, the benefits are simply physiological--I say have a glass of wine instead if that's all you are looking for.
Sighclone wrote:Surrendering to the anxiety of a personal loss or the anger we feel at someone else can be a portal, too...or not?
Yes,it is seen here that the the body knows what to do with emotions, (Et refers to them as conditioned energy) it is our mind's interference that creates the problems. Anger or anxiety arises, the body knows what to do with them, it absorbs them and the "Space" opens up again. It is our judgement and prejudices about having anger that is destructive and seemingly obscures the Space.

7worlds

To me UGK was the embodiment of unconditional love. He embraced everything that entered the Space that he was. For many years his abrasiveness was a barrier for me. Now when I watch one of his videos I just have to smile because I know exactly what he is referring to. ET nicely tells his audience that they are beggars sitting on a box of treasure and all they have to do is look inside, and yet he writes another book, and his name has become almost a corporation (nothing wrong with that). UGK beat people away with a stick telling them that he has nothing that they don't, and to leave him alone, and yet the people came, wrote books about him. I admire UGK for "walking the walk", but that is the last thing he would want.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:50 am

lucy wrote:7worlds

To me UGK was the embodiment of unconditional love. He embraced everything that entered the Space that he was. For many years his abrasiveness was a barrier for me. Now when I watch one of his videos I just have to smile because I know exactly what he is referring to. ET nicely tells his audience that they are beggars sitting on a box of treasure and all they have to do is look inside, and yet he writes another book, and his name has become almost a corportion (nothing wrong with that). UGK beat people away with a stick telling them that he has nothing that they don't, and to leave him alone, and yet the people came, wrote books about him. I admire UGK for "walking the walk", but that is the last thing he would want.
Yes. Although it's all the same whatever the source, the two figures in flesh that I feel closest to are Bob Marley and UG. Bob because music has played a huge part in my life (and my 'spiritual search') and I have not found another figure in music whose life and songs embody this message more. UG... well, there's not much else to say and he would berate me for it anyway.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:44 am

I agree. As long as there is sombody there to surrender, it can't be true surrender. (The space that you are is being inhabited by the egoic identity) . I think ET suggests surrender as a technique to help beginners disidentify with the egoic sense of self. As I'm sure we all know resisting anything strengthens it. But if what you are trying to disindentify from is the one practicing the technique, what is the point? As you pointed out Andy, the benefits are simply physiological--I say have a glass of wine instead if that's all you are looking for.
Sighclone wrote:Surrendering to the anxiety of a personal loss or the anger we feel at someone else can be a portal, too...or not?
I recall Adya talking about the last act of the ego, a non-existent entity, was to surrender itself. He said only the ego can do this, perhaps your "somebody", Lucy. An illusory act by an illusory entity energized by emotive/cognitive/belief constructs. The platform has to be built and stood upon in order to see that there is nothing there. One has to have a stance, frame of reference in order to have none; therein lies the use of ego and its surrender.

Don't know this from experience, just conjecture and pick-pocketed notions.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Sighclone » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:28 am

kiki is fond of an analogy...imagine yourself slowly descending down a rope, off the edge of a cliff. Lots of wonderful people, using quite different styles are somewhere below you saying: "Let go, you'll be fine." But you've felt relatively comfortable on the cliff, and you are hanging on the rope and know you can climb back up. But as you slowly descend, the clifftop is starting to be obscured...the bottom of the rope is obscured in clouds, too. So you keep descending. And finally you realize you are hanging onto the last of the rope.

When you finally let go, let the last lifeline go, you discover that your feet are very comfortably planted on the ground. The rope disappears, the clouds disappear, the rest of the universe is everywhere and crystal clear. It's outside you, and inside you, too. Letting go of the rope is the final surrender. You could have done it at the top of the cliff, too. Same result.

(kiki - I expanded your story a bit... :) )

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:02 pm

That works for me. Thank you Andy (and Kiki)
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by gdvant » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:04 am

I don't think what UGK referred to as "natural functioning" was what ET refers to as falling below thought. From my perspective, ET's "below thought" was a contrived state through the use of alcohol or drugs. UGK's natural state was the lack of interference from thoughts so that the intelligence in the body could function in the way that it should.
I see UGK's biological mutation as a falling below the level of thought. That is why he could not understand Buddhist pointings or JK when he spoke of love or intelligence or the immeasuarable dimension. To JK, through negation of the false, the positive is realized. UGK denied there is anything positive to realize.
ET has pointed out that while in one sense non-human animals are closer to the unconditioned than man, man's destiny is not to return to the state of animals but to realize being as the timeless unbounded dimension. In fact he is saying that inward transformation our very purpose on earth.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:25 pm

gdvant wrote: ET has pointed out that while in one sense non-human animals are closer to the unconditioned than man, man's destiny is not to return to the state of animals but to realize being as the timeless unbounded dimension. In fact he is saying that inward transformation our very purpose on earth.

Gdvant, can you cite your source on this, and/or give a direct quote? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to look closer at the context.

WW

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:02 pm

gdvant wrote:I see UGK's biological mutation as a falling below the level of thought. That is why he could not understand Buddhist pointings or JK when he spoke of love or intelligence or the immeasuarable dimension. To JK, through negation of the false, the positive is realized. UGK denied there is anything positive to realize.
You say by negation of the false, the "positive is realized", but what actually IS the 'positive'? To me, that is only a word. Positive and negative have exactly the same source. The same goes for this word 'love'. Why do we need to use the word 'love'? If I call it 'hate' instead does it actually change anything other than the sounds coming out my mouth or the letters on the screen?

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:19 pm

sevenworlds wrote: Positive and negative have exactly the same source. The same goes for this word 'love'. Why do we need to use the word 'love'? If I call it 'hate' instead does it actually change anything other than the sounds coming out my mouth or the letters on the screen?
One might fairly argue they have their origin in the same source, but references to positive and negative remain useful in terms of their quality of value. Positive may be seen as that which clarifies and expands (as in perspective), and negative as that which distorts and limits. That is not to say that one is right and the other wrong, as seeing through such lenses is just another limiting judgement. They are however, practical pointers of cause and effect. Should one wish to change one's experience in life from its current condition, or wish to explore the potential of greater awareness, an understanding of the nature of positive and negative can be a useful guide.

And the same holds true for love and hate. While the words are only words, that to which they point is causitive. Love is inclusive and expansive, hate is exclusive and isolating. Again that is not to say one is right and the other wrong, just a clearing guide to cause and effect. Having a sense of their nature offers guidance (to one so inclined to look) in the choices that one makes.

WW

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:45 am

WW, as long as an individual is unable to see that these are all only words and ideas, dressing this up in positivity is bound to do nothing other than perpetuate their current state. People have invested so much for so long in love and positivity, they don't want to let go of those ideas. Cause and effect only operates through time which is mind. The politicians play to this very well and so they use positive sounding words like 'hope' and 'change', which imply future. Many spiritual teachers are guilty of the same.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by lucy » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:39 am

gdvant wrote:ET has pointed out that while in one sense non-human animals are closer to the unconditioned than man, man's destiny is not to return to the state of animals but to realize being as the timeless unbounded dimension. In fact he is saying that inward transformation our very purpose on earth.

Hi gdvant,

I am not an expert on UGK's teachings so I am not going to waste my time or anybody else's time debating what he meant by the term "natural functioning". I am, however, an expert on what I have direct experience of. Most of what ET teaches can be applied in our everyday lives, so to me that is the Truth. When he starts to conjecture about the purpose of mankind here on earth is where he loses me. UGK did not see the body as being any different from that of any other animal. It's purpose was to perpetuate like other forms of life. It is the non existant individual that believes it has some noble purpose here on earth, not the body.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:25 am

sevenworlds wrote:WW, as long as an individual is unable to see that these are all only words and ideas, dressing this up in positivity is bound to do nothing other than perpetuate their current state. People have invested so much for so long in love and positivity, they don't want to let go of those ideas.
This seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the words are only words as is the case with all teachings from all teachers, but the useful ones point to a perspective beyond words - one that is known in experience. And what other generally effective medium do we have to convey information? And are you saying that an investment in love and positivity has been void of benefit to the investor?

While it's true that some just give lip service in their pointing, others take their reference to heart and make honest reviews of their perspectives. We as pointers, cannot know the impact of our words in certitude. We can only offer them from integrity and direct experience. Each listener is responsible for how (or if) they integrate that insight.

It may be a fundamental goal in development of consciouness that interactions between beings is effected significantly by the nature of those interactions. So it seems incumbant to have guiding principles that point the way. I agree that we do need to understand that the pointers are just that - pointers, and not that that is pointed to. The best teachers it seems, are those that can convey those pointers in a way that moves the listener beyond the words themselves.
Cause and effect only operates through time which is mind.


Can we be certain of this or does the mind just transform events into the perception of time? Cause and effect may well transcend time and matter. And consider, is there a better medium of learning than the fundamental laws of cause and effect?
The politicians play to this very well and so they use positive sounding words like 'hope' and 'change', which imply future.

No argument from here. But politicians are generally not in the business of bringing clarity to one's life. Far too many specialize in manipulation for the purpose of forwarding an agenda. So it is common for them to appeal to blind emotionalism in order to get the support (and votes) for agendas, that if seen clearly, would more likely get them put on trial for treason.
Many spiritual teachers are guilty of the same.
While true again, it paints with too broad a brush for my taste. The power of discernment lies latent in all of us; and a key factor in useful pointers is to get us in touch with this ability. It is indeed worthwhile to point out that many "spiritual" teachers have an agenda other than offering assistance to their listeners. But it seems a disservice to point out the fallibility of some without acknowledging the virtue of others.

So long as we understand that we must look for ourselves, beyond the words, the words have little harm. But, as we are prone to ego identification, it is important to offer constant reminders that the words are just tools in the cause of pointing.

WW

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by gdvant » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:51 am

I am not an expert on UGK's teachings so I am not going to waste my time or anybody else's time debating what he meant by the term "natural functioning". I am, however, an expert on what I have direct experience of. Most of what ET teaches can be applied in our everyday lives, so to me that is the Truth. When he starts to conjecture about the purpose of mankind here on earth is where he loses me. UGK did not see the body as being any different from that of any other animal. It's purpose was to perpetuate like other forms of life. It is the non existant individual that believes it has some noble purpose here on earth, not the body.
A "noble purpose" is the kind of distorted interpretation that UGK offered. Obviously human beings have the biological urge to reproduce but is that all we are? When ET speaks of a new openness and connection to a deeper dimension of consciousness, I hear him referring to what is already occurring to some extent for many people. It may be that we are called to more deeply realize and express that, but it is not some kind of mind-made ideal state to chase after. The experiencing here is that the inner energy field of the body is our inner connectedness to the immeasurable dimension.

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