Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)
lucy
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by lucy » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:26 am

gdvant wrote:Obviously human beings have the biological urge to reproduce but is that all we are?
No we are not just limited to the body. We are everything and all the space in between.
gdvant wrote:When ET speaks of a new openness and connection to a deeper dimension of consciousness, I hear him referring to what is already occurring to some extent for many people.
{You cannot connect to this openness and deeper dimension, you are the openness and deeper dimension. There is noone there to connect. When it is seen that there is no individual present, your deeper reality is realized.
gdvant wrote:The experiencing here is that the inner energy field of the body is our inner connectedness to the immeasurable dimension.
Yes, I would agree that the inner energy field of the body is your true nature. That presence I AM.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:40 pm

Webwanderer wrote:This seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the words are only words as is the case with all teachings from all teachers, but the useful ones point to a perspective beyond words - one that is known in experience. And what other generally effective medium do we have to convey information? And are you saying that an investment in love and positivity has been void of benefit to the investor?

While it's true that some just give lip service in their pointing, others take their reference to heart and make honest reviews of their perspectives. We as pointers, cannot know the impact of our words in certitude. We can only offer them from integrity and direct experience. Each listener is responsible for how (or if) they integrate that insight.
A perspective that is known in experience cannot be the real thing. That is the danger with many of these positive sounding words. People hear the word 'love' and they say they can feel something so they grip harder to that concept. What they're feeling is a thought-induced sensation based on their idea or belief of love. Then when a teacher's expression seems negative against that, they are lost. It is the mind which thinks the sweet-sounding birds every morning are beautiful yet the squawking crow or passing trucks are an irritant.
Webwanderer wrote:Can we be certain of this or does the mind just transform events into the perception of time? Cause and effect may well transcend time and matter. And consider, is there a better medium of learning than the fundamental laws of cause and effect?
If there is such thing as cause and effect taking place then it's something we can never understand. Our language is born of thought so it's far too limited to do the job.
Webwanderer wrote:It is indeed worthwhile to point out that many "spiritual" teachers have an agenda other than offering assistance to their listeners. But it seems a disservice to point out the fallibility of some without acknowledging the virtue of others.
Even the so-called genuine ones are, in many cases, unwittingly strengthening the minds of their listeners. The positive approach has the danger of offering hope, that if you believe in love and positivity enough one day you will be free. The negative approach is more realistic in that it offers you nothing because nothing you could want is in that state.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:19 pm

sevenworlds wrote:A perspective that is known in experience cannot be the real thing.

Why not? Is experience not real? Even an imagining is a genuine experience. If you bump your shin, the shin and the bumping may be imagined, but the experience is what it is. And a perspective is just a point of view. The view may be distorted, but the experience of the distortion is real in its unique distortion. One may subsequently wake up and realize there never was a shin or a bumping other than in imagination, but the experience of an imagined shin and bumping remains.
If there is such thing as cause and effect taking place then it's something we can never understand. Our language is born of thought so it's far too limited to do the job.
Again, why not? Language will always be a limiting factor, but understanding transcends language. The "we" that cannot understand is the ego identity that lives in words and concepts. If that were all that is in being I would agree. But when the ego is seen through there remains awareness that is capable of perception without the aid and limits of language.
Even the so-called genuine ones are, in many cases, unwittingly strengthening the minds of their listeners.
There is no such thing as a "so-called" genuine teacher. It is an oxymoron to start with, and the "so-called" exists only as the judgment of doubt in the "so-caller". Genuine teachers do not strenghten the minds of the listeners (at least not in the context you refer to). It is the listeners that make what they will out of the pointers offered. A genuine teacher of non-duality points the way to clarity of awareness and freedom from mind identity.
The positive approach has the danger of offering hope, that if you believe in love and positivity enough one day you will be free. The negative approach is more realistic in that it offers you nothing because nothing you could want is in that state.
I think you confuse hope with optimism. Either way it is the listener that applies pointers as they will. And the negative approach is also fraught with potential for ego manipulation - fearing vulnerabiliy to the despair of unfullfilled hope. Some prefer the path of hope, others the path of despair. The wise ones find the middle path that is free of both hope and despair, and lives in the observation of judgment-free cause and effect.

WW

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:23 am

Webwanderer wrote:Why not? Is experience not real? Even an imagining is a genuine experience. If you bump your shin, the shin and the bumping may be imagined, but the experience is what it is.
I'm not saying anything against experiences, but what we're talking about here is seeing experiences for what they are. What is it that sees the experience? Where is it that all these experiences and sensations are coming from?
Webwanderer wrote:Again, why not? Language will always be a limiting factor, but understanding transcends language. The "we" that cannot understand is the ego identity that lives in words and concepts. If that were all that is in being I would agree. But when the ego is seen through there remains awareness that is capable of perception without the aid and limits of language.
Language can be used to convey the kind of 'cause and effect' say, doctors, will talk about. Smoking causes cancer, eating this food or that food causes this disease, etc... To me that is a very limited and false 'cause and effect'. If there even is cause and effect, it is so vast and intricate that we can never say what caused what. When the ego goes you wouldn't even be interested in trying to understand it.
Webwanderer wrote:There is no such thing as a "so-called" genuine teacher. It is an oxymoron to start with, and the "so-called" exists only as the judgment of doubt in the "so-caller". Genuine teachers do not strenghten the minds of the listeners (at least not in the context you refer to).
I used "so-called" because to me the idea of a teacher is false anyway. What are they teaching? Something you already have? The spiritual marketplace is a very popular industry and authors such as Eckhart have sold millions of books yet there doesn't appear to be millions of ego-free beings walking this planet. The vast majority are in an imagined comfort zone of love and positivity.
Webwanderer wrote:I think you confuse hope with optimism. Either way it is the listener that applies pointers as they will. And the negative approach is also fraught with potential for ego manipulation - fearing vulnerabiliy to the despair of unfullfilled hope. Some prefer the path of hope, others the path of despair. The wise ones find the middle path that is free of both hope and despair, and lives in the observation of judgment-free cause and effect.
Hope or optimism - both have future in them. I'm not saying the negative approach is best but if you look at it as it is, many of the figures we see as being in that state walked the path of despair. Thinking has such a grip on humanity that it often isn't shaken off until the mind completely runs out of moves. Eckhart himself never ended up in that state after reading books or going to talks such as his own.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by gdvant » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:18 am

gdvant wrote:
When ET speaks of a new openness and connection to a deeper dimension of consciousness, I hear him referring to what is already occurring to some extent for many people.
lucy wrote:You cannot connect to this openness and deeper dimension, you are the openness and deeper dimension. There is noone there to connect. When it is seen that there is no individual present, your deeper reality is realized.
gv: to clarify, where there is identification with thought occurring, consciousness is fragmented. That confusion and fragmentation is actually occurring whether or not there is a belief that we are the openness and deeper dimension. Because the deeper dimension is obscured there is no direct connection between the energy of that dimension and one's daily life. So there is an enormous qualitative difference in consciousness between a state where the spacious dimension is obscured and when it is not. When ET for example asks, is there space what what is occurring? -- that points to centerless attention. Attention or presence is the connection or contact between the dimension of unlimited space and the conditioned mind of man.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by eagle2phoenix » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:46 am

I propose we quit this topic as it seems never ending. To each his own?
Life is fascinating. Nature is beautiful. Live life with nature.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by lucy » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:16 pm

gdvant wrote:Attention or presence is the connection or contact between the dimension of unlimited space and the conditioned mind of man.
gdvant wrote:gv: to clarify, where there is identification with thought occurring, consciousness is fragmented.
It was seen over here that consciousness was never fragmented. It only appeared that way because of the identification with thought.
gdvant wrote:That confusion and fragmentation is actually occurring whether or not there is a belief that we are the openness and deeper dimension. Because the deeper dimension is obscured there is no direct connection between the energy of that dimension and one's daily life.
Yes I agree belief makes absolutely no difference because it is just more concepts, and it is the belief in concepts that seemingly obscures the connection, but the energy is always there in the present moment but because we inhabit a world of concepts and beliefs we do not notice it. The energy is always there because YOU are indivisible.
gdvant wrote:So there is an enormous qualitative difference in consciousness between a state where the spacious dimension is obscured and when it is not.
Absolutely agree.
gdvant wrote:When ET for example asks, is there space what what is occurring? -- that points to centerless attention.
When the separte individual is not granted any belief, life happens without a centre; all that is left is the Space and Content of Space, which is YOU
gdvant wrote:Attention or presence is the connection or contact between the dimension of unlimited space and the conditioned mind of man
Presence or the "know-ing that you are" (verb) is what you are. You cannot connect to what you already are. The conditioned mind of man does not exist, it is not a separte entity. Once it was seen that the separate "I" has no reality, the lynchpin is pulled out, it is also seen that there is no such thing as mind or conditioned mind, these are just misconceptions stacked on the primary illusion of the separte identity.
eagle2phoenix wrote:I propose we quit this topic as it seems never ending. To each his own?
Lol..I think we actually quit the original topic several pages ago.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by eagle2phoenix » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:07 am

Lucy, I believe the root is still the same. Discussion on teachers, concepts, books leading to ET. I am simple minded, cannot differentiate. If you have moved to a different topic, shouldn't the subject be different? Zen mind,beginners mind?
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by gdvant » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:18 pm

>>> e2phoenix » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:07 am Lucy, I believe the root is still the same. Discussion on teachers, concepts, books leading to ET. I am simple minded, cannot differentiate. If you have moved to a different topic, shouldn't the subject be different? Zen mind,beginners mind? <<<

For real verbal communication that holds the possibility of non-verbal communion, it is not so much that there has to be an agreed upon narrow topic of discussion. Rather there has to be a mutual interest in moving together in dialog. To move together requires an interest in understanding what the other means and also requires verbal clarity. Without verbal clarity we may be speaking the same language, English, but we have no agreed upon or mutually understood meaning for many of the terms we use. So there is no real communication occurring. Terms like consciousness, fragmentation, egoic mind, pain body, identification, etc can mean very different things depending upon the context of discussion and the backgrounds of the people who discuss. What we call the egoic mind or fragmentation of consciousness involves a kind of illusion but the illusion has its root in psychological confusion that is actually occurring. So what does it mean to say there is no ego? There certainly is in one sense but there certainly is not in another.

But you are intersted in staying on topic. What difference does it make to the listener what may be motivating ET if the listener is not blindly following? If you can not be exploited because you are directly investigating and not imitating, are you concerned about someone else's possible desire to exploit others?

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by eagle2phoenix » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:54 am

I stay on the topic because it is an active one but I read it with disinterest. The reason why I wrote what I wrote is because it generates too much viewpoints , about teachers. How it goes may have changed along the way but it is still pretty much the same. It reminds me of what I tend to do when I am socializing with friends - we just comment, comment, comment. Did we forget that teachers are just there to give pointers and not to do much more? Or have we gotten hung up on why they teach what they teach? Or concepts?

Maybe I got it wrong. I reserve judgment.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by gdvant » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:21 am

I stay on the topic because it is an active one but I read it with disinterest. The reason why I wrote what I wrote is because it generates too much viewpoints , about teachers. How it goes may have changed along the way but it is still pretty much the same. It reminds me of what I tend to do when I am socializing with friends - we just comment, comment, comment. Did we forget that teachers are just there to give pointers and not to do much more? Or have we gotten hung up on why they teach what they teach? Or concepts? Maybe I got it wrong. I reserve judgment.
Also there is the difficulty where many are pointing and few are looking. :-)

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by eagle2phoenix » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:25 am

I come, I see, I go.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by kernelsan » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:06 am

alot of the replies on this topic seem to be from people who wont take criticism of tolle, responding with answers like "be more present" and "your ego is responsible for you being unhappy with the price of eckarts talks". This makes them sound brainwashed, responding parrot fashion with 'enlightened' phrases. I think eckharts message is probably a good one, but your over zealous defence of it, is of course your ego. The fact is many people think of these new age teachings, together with holistic medicine etc as a scam, and by charging so much Eckart is putting people off his message before they even hear it. I'd ask Eckhart himself, and i hope he would be able to give me a satisfactory answer as to why he allows his talks to cost so much, but you have to pay for the priviledge of asking him direct questions.

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:22 am

Welcome kernelsan!

Eckhart changes his approaches to the public. This is my opinion only, based on intuition: I think he wants to retire into pure awareness, and respond as he is called from that. He said as much regarding the Oprah series. In a way, I think that he charges higher prices to support an organization that has built up around him. He would prefer not to be so recognizable - he no longer can enjoy anonymity. Before awakening he was a pleasant very shy person (I have this on good authority). International fame does not sit well with him. Maybe someday he will offer less expensive venues. The upcoming talk for two hours in Arizona can be attended for $65 - not horribly excessive.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Post by still_mind » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:26 am

From my perspective Eckhart's teachings are available at reasonable prices in the form of books, CDs, DVD-videos etc. There is no real 'need' to go see him, unless it is an experience you think will be enjoyable for you. It's a personal choice. Some people will spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on vacations all over the world in an attempt to relax and feel good. When you visit Eckhart you may relax, feel good and become more aware :wink: or not! Again, personal choice to allow this into your life or go in another direction.

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