Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle events

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby Sighclone » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:16 am

Thanks dij and pb. And, welcome Painbody - great new member despite that scary avatar! (yes, lots of painbody in there, etc. -- please tell us it is not a self-portrait!)

Hmmm... I wrote that five years ago. "Joy is the dynamic aspect of Being. When the creative power of the universe becomes conscious of itself, it manifests as joy." (that's from p. 297 of ANE...tks dij) So we are both wrong. He doesn't "downplay" the joy of life in form ('manifests') - he exalts it. ( And I think we both agree that "manifests" surely implies form.)

Picking nits is actually very important. Yes, perhaps an atom of ego might be detected - or not...no blame. Seeking the correct expression of truth in these matters is significant - I have learned a great deal here and elsewhere from people helping me to refine my thinking and expressions.

I think, five years ago, I was all worried about the egoic "little me" or, as Rupert Spira says the "separate inside self." And, when totally consumed by Ego, it is the little pleasures (not 'joys', if you will) of buying a third new car (or hotel !) that I was suggesting are utterly transient, and nourish the "false self." These days I tend to forgive identification with the ego a bit more. "No self" is one of the fundamental messages of nonduality, yes. But even after awakening, there is the scaffolding of a unique identity, the personality, the "Andyness," if you will, that surely remains (recall an earlier thread on personalities of gurus.) Also, there is the concept of lila in maya, or play in the world of form.

From the perspective of the Absolute, of course, the entire universe is virtual. Because the only reality is the Absolute...Brahman. Well, fine. But hey, most of us in the western world have grown up with a sense of separate self, hugely encouraged by our parents and culture and the final authority, the taxman. From the level of the Absolute, we are just gamepieces on a vast and complex relative universal gameboard. So...why not play? It's basically a question of identifying "with" or "as" the separate self. Discarding that identity is certainly disorienting at first -- I remember being pretty frantic until I stumbled onto this forum in 2008. I like concepts to be pretty tidy and my identity had suffered a gobsmack. But gradually I got past that, and there was integration. I can still get all lost down a thought-stream bunny trail...but now I have an "off" switch that was unavailable to me for about 62 years, despite 40 years of TM. The tenth bull of Zen is useful to recall..."Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world. My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful. I use no magic to extend my life; Now, before me, the dead trees become alive."

Andy
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:05 pm

Hi Andy,

Nice post! The only part I cringed at a little was- "No self" is one of the fundamental messages of nonduality, yes."

But, then you said- "But even after awakening, there is the scaffolding of a unique identity, the personality, the "Andyness," if you will, that surely remains." ..

So, although the Jiva/person is only a projection within awareness and as such is only "apparently" real, it does exist. We can experience it...it's just not ultimately "real". The association between pure awareness (Brahman) and reflected awareness (objects, including Jivas) will continue until the death of the body.

So, to say there is "no self" I find to be inaccurate. Which you seem to agree. It's actually just understanding that although the jiva/person will continue to exist in the apparent world it can be negated, seen as an object within you, awareness. But, you will continue to experience it and its personality, as you already said.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby Sighclone » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:24 am

That "no self" was a nod to Buddhism. It's their approach, and useful if we define "no self" as "no ego." Shankara had several things to say about Buddhism, mostly negative, by the way.

Here is an interesting recent "Present Moment Reminder" from ET: "There is nothing that strengthens the ego more than being right."

That got me thinking...does that mean that "being wrong" is healthier?

Does that mean that every effort ET used to write the "right words" was egoic?

Of course, it is the attachment to "being right" that exposes the ego. But what if writing just the "right" koan is done. By the "non-doer" big "S" Self. Can anyone, including the writer not be pleased? Pleased that the "right" word "came to her?" Larry Dossey has a relatively new book out suggesting that there is one mind. Although it's well-researched, there are surely separate memories...

If someone speaks Hungarian and I do not, can I suddenly begin speaking it? Not much evidence there, I fear. But maybe that's "Wrong." :wink:

Andy
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby DavidB » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:39 am

“If you can be absolutely comfortable with not knowing who you are, then what’s left is who you are – the Being behind the human, a field of pure potentiality rather than something that is already defined. Give up defining yourself – to yourself and others. You won’t die. You will come to life.” ~ Eckhart Tolle

"Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and becoming comfortable with not knowing." ~ Eckhart Tolle
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:17 am

That "no self" was a nod to Buddhism. It's their approach, and useful if we define "no self" as "no ego."


Oh, I see! I don't know if your discussion about "being right strengthens the ego" was directed towards me or not? But, I just write what comes to mind. I don't mean to offend.

So, on that note, I'm not too concerned about the ego. I use to think it was an entity that could be dissolved or destroyed. I'm over that notion. I now think of it as an apparent object (the I-thought) that thinks it's an individual, but it's not real. So, how to kill or dissolve something that's not real to begin with? Or is that your point?

If you don't identify with it as who you are and you know your true nature as awareness, then it's really not a problem. It's whats needed to interact with the world, to use language, to learn new knowledge, etc.

The problematic aspect of ego is when ego claims itself as having consciousness/awareness. When it is really that it is the ego (I-thought) that is "within" awareness, seen as an object, not the other way around. That's the way I see it at least.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby Sighclone » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:24 am

Dij, dear, when I think you are offensive in the tiniest way, I will shift over to ALL CAPS and lecture you. :wink:

I believe that accurate expression is important. And I believe that an expression in writing or speaking may be "right" for one person and "no so right" for another. All of this experience of nonduality has to be filtered through language on this fourm. The great teachers, like Ramana, did their best teaching in person, and mostly in silence, I have been told.

We, and Tolle, spend time thinking about our posts, how we phrase them, what we say. What we want to be "right" is the internal sense of the message as it appears in words. Thanks for bringing up the "I-thought." That has been one of the best reminders from Ramana for all of us. And, yes, it is a thought, and an expression in form, that appears in our minds. The question is attachment and identity, and once the foundation of egoic "I-ness" is laid by our parents and mirrors and advertising and peers who remind us, as young teens, that we are "cool" or "not cool" with rather vicious treatment...once that identity is bound up with not only the mind but also the body...(how is your "body-image?")...that identity begins to become internalized and is ultimately an energized belief that tends to self-perpetuate. Which is, of course, the source of all our problems! How can a self-image be anything more than an image?? And a really changeable one at that!!

Eckhart was a linguist, and it is with some irony that, in a moment of near suicide and significant despair, he thought to himself: "I can't live with myself any more." Then his linguist mind fired up and said "I and myself???" Are there two "me's"?? - surely one must be false. Who can't live with what??? (I paraphrase here.) And then there was that blast of Unity Awareness that made him faint away. Self-realization is a pretty big blow to an ego-identified mind. Poor ET tried to bump along in his chosen academic field for a year or two, then gave up and stayed on the spiritual-teacher path.

Dij - we are totally on the same page. Thanks for all your other posts to newer members.

Andy
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:19 pm

Dij, dear, when I think you are offensive in the tiniest way, I will shift over to ALL CAPS and lecture you. :wink:


:lol: cool!

Dij - we are totally on the same page.


Again, cool...and good to know!

The question is attachment and identity, and once the foundation of egoic "I-ness" is laid


I totally agree. Yes, everyone either does or did believe they are/were the ego. The I- thought that says my, mine, yours...I own this, I know that, I AM this and that. True freedom for me is knowing whatever antics the ego does ...it's not who I am. So, the dissolution perhaps that some guru's speak of, may be just seeing it's unreality? That dissolves the belief that it is "real" and that that is who you are.

I liked the rest of your post also, nice! :D

Ohhh, Happy (mithya) Valentines day!
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby Sighclone » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:13 am

I wish you well, too, Dij. I know that human life form around you has been banged up a bit lately.

I see you and Borris are bopping around in another thread...very interesting to see him return after 8 years' absence.

Levels and types of karma, levels and types of Samadhi, the distinction between Ishvara and Brahman, etc. And trying to translate all that into English. It is important, yes, but also kind of sad.

There is one "All That Is" and there is either the realization of that or not. Unrealized, we can jabber away in many languages and still be a finger, or 500 fingers pointing at the moon. In fact, the wondering if "that" experience was nirvikalpa Samadhi or not or whatever is a big mental party. And nothing will get us stuck in duality faster than mental gyrations and nit-picking. But also that is the path of the jnani, darn. :wink: We love to learn and study and talk. But as ET mentioned, being right and being right and pointing out that someone else is wrong, and then being right again and arguing more....wow!! No better way to stay asleep.

I know a fine spiritual teacher, an Advaitist who suggested one of his pupils go find some psilocybin. Just for the little neurochemical bump. If it weren't for the great credibility of the teacher, I'd have been aghast. But some of those old rigid mental pathways might need a nudge. I do know for sure the teacher did not often recommend a drug. But the full-on experience is pretty much vital, at some point.

Andy
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:46 pm

I've learned many things from Vedanta and one of them is that, what is said, is very important to overall understanding and miscommunication of words and their meanings can confuse many people. If I disagree with what someone says, why not say so. To not say something is basically like agreeing with what they've said.

Take away the topics you listed, there won't be much left to talk about.

Perhaps, this isn't the place for me anymore which is becoming increasingly apparent. Vedanta is my main focus and trying to fit my views in with others, that do not jive, is just not working.

Your post felt a bit like a lecture. I think I'll exist before it becomes a lecture in "all caps".
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby painBody » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:31 pm

dijmart wrote:I've learned many things from Vedanta and one of them is that, what is said, is very important to overall understanding and miscommunication of words and their meanings can confuse many people. If I disagree with what someone says, why not say so. To not say something is basically like agreeing with what they've said.

Take away the topics you listed, there won't be much left to talk about.

Perhaps, this isn't the place for me anymore which is becoming increasingly apparent. Vedanta is my main focus and trying to fit my views in with others, that do not jive, is just not working.


I don't know if what I have to say is relevant to this discussion but it feels relevant, so I'll throw it in the mix. Of course, this is only my view, and it is not my intention to invalidate or criticize anyone else's path of inquiry.

Whenever I come across a "teaching" (that word itself is loosely defined, but you know what I mean) that requires/involves a lot of concepts and jargon to be defined and understood, I immediately become skeptical. Of course, we need a means of uniform/standard communication so that everyone can understand, so there will need to be a few words whose meanings are specific to a teacher/teaching, but I've always maintained that spirituality must be far simpler than anything we could ever learn about in the world of form ... and when it isn't, I know it's not true spirituality, but made up fiction. I don't know why, but I just know this to be true, deep down.

So, when I hear all these complex concepts and jargon, regardless of whether they are in Sanskrit (which I partially understand owing to being Indian) or English or whatever, I immediately become skeptical. Nature cannot be that complicated. So, where did the complexity come from ? Ah, the genius ... the human brain, of course ! The same human brain that has written billions of fiction novels. And, I just can't find myself taking that stuff seriously. Like ET says, once the fundamental truths were discovered, the human brain got "in there" and started adding layers of unnecessary and meaningless complexity to those truths ... the truths got lost, and that's how we got religion :)

Yet again, I think that this is why Eckhart's presentation of these fundamental truths has reached as many people as it has. He uses a minimum of jargon, and listening to him doesn't feel like a science lecture in college.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:31 pm

PB,

I hear what you're saying and understand your thoughts on it. Vedanta is not for everyone! To an unqualified mind (ie. Someone not ready)....EDIT: you may not understand it and/or it will not be appealing to you (that's more clear, then what I originally wrote).

I believe the events recently...the back and forth with Borris (that agitated the mind), a member here sending me.."7".. PM's last night, Andy's bit of a lecture...its a sign for me to get off this forum! It's what's best for me, although sad and maybe even best for other members.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby painBody » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:41 pm

dijmart wrote:To an unqualified mind (ie. Your not ready) it will not make sense, be difficult to understand and seem like jibberish.


I disagree. It's not that I'm unqualified. It's just unnecessarily complex. I can handle a fair bit of complexity ... I have a degree in Computer Science and 8 years on the workforce. It's just a question of whether I want to or not. It's not that the content is difficult to understand ... there is nothing (of substance) to understand.

dijmart wrote:I believe the events recently...the back and forth with Borris (that agitated the mind), a member here sending me.."9".. PM's last night, Andy's bit of a lecture...its a sign for me to get off this forum! It's what's best for me, although sad and maybe even best for other members.


I would be sad to see you go, too :( I enjoy PM'ing with you, even if we don't see eye to eye on spiritual stuff ... who cares. BTW, I didn't know about this exchange with "Borris" (don't know who that is), but everyone argues on such forums from time to time. I hope it won't suffice as a reason for you to leave. You're my only friend here !

P.S. If/when you decide to leave, please PM me your email address, so we can stay in touch !
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:52 pm

PB,
I'm not closing my account, you can still PM me, even if I'm not posting on the forum.

Also, unqualified (in Vedanta) has nothing to do with intelligence, so don't take it as an insult, it wasnt. I know your a smart cookie!
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby painBody » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:54 pm

dijmart wrote:PB,
I'm not closing my account, you can still PM me, even if I'm not posting on the forum.

Also, unqualified has nothing to do with intelligence, so don't take it as an insult, it wasnt. I know your a smart cookie!


Well, you did say unqualified **mind** ;)

I know you didn't mean it as an insult.
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Re: Not sure what to think re: very high prices for Tolle ev

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:56 pm

painBody wrote:
dijmart wrote:PB,
I'm not closing my account, you can still PM me, even if I'm not posting on the forum.

Also, unqualified has nothing to do with intelligence, so don't take it as an insult, it wasnt. I know your a smart cookie!


Well, you did say unqualified **mind** ;)

Mind = intelligence, no ?


Nope, not in Vedanta
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