Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Sighclone » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:58 am

From 1 Timothy 6:10, it is the love of money which is the root of all evil. This emphasizes the desire we might manifest for the money, not the possession of it. It is that desire, that obsession, which is deeply unconscious, which "misses the mark."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby patbb » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:39 pm

perhaps Tolle just do not identify with making money and being rich.

He do not get his identity from this.
He do not seek happiness in these activities.
He wont think:"I will be happy when i make another million so i can finish paying the mortgage. Then i will be happy"
Or think:" if i make loads of money, then donate a bunch of it to people in need, people will perceive me as a good person and this will make me happy. Then i will have fulfilled my life goal and be happy."


So he can handle money or anything else in life peacefully.
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Gypsyblue » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:48 pm

The Dalai Lama has a network of support. He can give away all of his money and he'll never be homeless. He's a king for crying out loud.

But as for Eckhart, Gangaji, Chopra - they're all millionaires and I do think they charge to much for their events. So do the Rolling Stones and Bruce Springsteen.

I don't see Eckhart, Gangaji and Chopra as being quite in the same league as the Dalai Lama, BTW. They're brilliant - but the Dalai Lama is a saint near as I can tell.

As for who's enlightened, partially enlightened or un-enlightened: who am I to say? I'd have to be up on the mountain looking down to know - not at the foot of the mountain looking up at those on their way to the top.
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby mystic1715 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:54 am

If you want a model of the ethics of real spirituality for comparison, I recently took the 10 day Goenka Vipassana retreat. It was totally free of charge, including lodging and food, and at the last day of the course, there was a table for donations so you could have an opportunity to support the next person taking the course, if you wanted too. I can personally attest that there was zero pressure put on me to donate. The Goenka retreat runs on the principal that it is unethical to sell spirituality and also it deprives the participant of his ability to cultivate the generosity needed to progress in his own path. Fast-food enlightenment will always be a big business in America because there are more than enough fools to support the growing industry. The Beatles figured that out back in the 60s.

http://www.dhamma.org/

Here is an excerpt:
"How much does the course cost?
Each student who attends a Vipassana course is given this gift by a previous student. There is no charge for either the teaching, or for room and board. All Vipassana courses worldwide are run on a strictly voluntary donation basis. At the end of your course, if you have benefited from the experience, you are welcome to donate for the coming course, according to your volition and your means."
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby coriolis » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:30 am

Sighclone wrote:From 1 Timothy 6:10, it is the love of money which is the root of all evil. This emphasizes the desire we might manifest for the money, not the possession of it. It is that desire, that obsession, which is deeply unconscious, which "misses the mark."

Andy


One does not generally "possess" what one does not desire and is eager to shed it.
Therefore those who "have a lot of money" must, on some level. desire it or they would try to avoid it like a bad smell.

Watching what people do will tell you what they truly are far more clearly than anything they say or anything that is said about them.

And you don't really have to "judge them" --- just see.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
---- Wu Hsin
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Sighclone » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:22 am

Money, like all elements of form, is trivial in the big picture. And generally, this forum is about the big picture. I have an uncle who loved his work and suddenly was a millionaire. He was not stupid and formed a corporation, paid himself in salary and dividends (at the urging of his wife who had to raise four boys, yes, with his help). But he was an engineer; he liked to build things. His company used a new variety of ceramics to solve a problem in manufacturing in the 1960's. Then he was rich. He gave money away, and spent a few years at low salary in South America helping to start small businesses there. He liked to make stuff work effectively -- he like the game of maya. He knew that "something bigger was going on for sure" and believed in God in a kind of Deist way. But he was indifferent to money. And it came to him.

How much of Bill Gates' fortune remains in his grubby little hands today? I think it is 59 billion dollars. He knows how to make money grow and how to give it away. So let's judge Bill just for the heck of it. Oops, we can't because we do not have a copy of his personal will and testament. My point is that a person can build and build a fortune, through legal means, yes, by seeking money. Is that necessarily bad? Is it not true that every dollar he or she spends trickles down somewhere? Should we expect Bill to distribute his entire wealth equally among the citizens of Somalia, leaving for himself exactly one share? Is that the "highest and best use" of his capital?

A junior in college, a liberal, came home for the summer. Her Dad met her at the airport. He said, "Wow, dear daughter, you look tired -- how do you feel?"
Daugher - "I'm OK Dad, the last final in Comparative Anatomy was real hard."
Dad - "I'll bet -- how is your roommate Sophie?"
Daughter - "Who knows Dad, she has a new boyfriend and I do not see much of her."
Dad – “Oh, how were her grades?”
Daughter - “Oh, I don’t know – probably C’s, like last semester.”
Dad – “And how about you?
Daughter – “I’m pretty sure I got an A in everything – maybe an A- in the anatomy course…”
Dad- “Boy, is that unfair – she gets all C’s and you get A’s. You know, dear, the registrar is a good friend of mine. I’m going to call him.”

He pulls the car over and starts to dial his friend.

Dad –“I’ll just tell him to give you both B’s in everything.”
Daughter (loudly) “Your going to do what?!?!?” Your going to, like , tell him to average our grades??? She’s out with her boyfriend until 4AM and now she gets B’s, and I get lousy B’s for all my crazy hours in the library?!?!”
Dad – “Welcome to the Republican Party, dear.” And puts down his phone.

My point here is about the law of karma or ‘action’ – the cycle of cause and effect. In the “real world” (which we nondualists know as the world of form - samsara), hard work (and often devious work) is rewarded with money. Money which goes to rent, house payments, transportation, clothing, computers, etc… If he did nothing else, Buddha at least demonstrated that ascetic self-denial was not the path to Self-Realization. So we get to deal with money. Now Ramana gave away his Brahmin earrings to get to Tiruvannamalai – and that was the last possession except for a few books and his little diapers. And money came to his ashram. It still does. Money, like virtue, is its own reward. Like begets like.

But us, we, our Being? Utterly untouched. Amused perhaps, but not affected. It is the detachment which defines us, not the attachment. Detachment is not disavowal, it is disinterest.

At its best money feeds the poor. It can buy freedom, too. And access to an education. The computer you are reading from right now was built in a factory which requires a significant amount of capital to get started and to keep functioning. It’s just a medium of exchange of perceived values.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Ziendus » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:28 am

---ooOoo---
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Sighclone » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:31 pm

Ah, the glorious powers of youthful ego!

None of which is to say that the Bugatti isn't striking to behold. Craving it is a different matter.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby unbornawakened » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:15 pm

Ramana Maharshi had nothing to do with money. His only material possession was his loincloth.

Often people who have less money tend to be more giving, at least in non-Western societies.

Of course, with or without money is not as important as the attitude you carry within.
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:02 am

unbornawakened wrote:Of course, with or without money is not as important as the attitude you carry within.

Indeed, and how we treat our fellow travelers is reflective of that attitude within. "You shall know them by their fruits." May our attitudes be free of judgment and abundant with clarity of our own attitude.

WW
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby coriolis » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:14 am

Sighclone wrote:The computer you are reading from right now was built in a factory which requires a significant amount of capital to get started and to keep functioning.


It does in the game of Capitalism but different games have different requirements :wink:

Bottom line: People don't have a lot of anything for very long that they really don't desire to hang on to -- and money is not an exception to that rule.

The Dalai Lama and Ramana Maharshi stands in sharp contrast (because of what they do and how they actually live, not what they say) to westernized purveyors of enlightenment for cash like Deepak Chopra and others who's words point to one thing while the way they live points to another.

And the wise will observe this and not be led astray by words and teachings that are not backed up by action.

If you've had kids you know how aggravating it can be that they learn more about you from watching what you do and how you react to things than they do from any of your sermonizing.

We should not shed that habit when we become adults.

The only truly valuable things in life are absolutely free.

Those who say this and then (in whatever form an by whatever means) ask you to "pay for it" are simply saying one thing while doing another.

When you were five or six this probably would have been very clear to you.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
---- Wu Hsin
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Ziendus » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:46 am

Andy:
> None of which is to say that the Bugatti isn't striking to behold. Craving it is a different matter.

Ah yes, holding on to a passing Bugatti can be a painful affair.
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Sighclone » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:25 pm

Sighclone wrote:
The computer you are reading from right now was built in a factory which requires a significant amount of capital to get started and to keep functioning.

It does in the game of Capitalism but different games have different requirements



Ah yes indeed. But right now, in the present moment, we have capitalism. Not accepting that is a form of denial. ET reminds us that we have three choices (and assumes we can 'choose' - but that is another thread.) We can accept the situation, we can change the situation or we can leave the situation. For myself, I accept capitalism, have a job, and change what I can about capitalism in a microscopic way (dealing with my clients, associates and researchers). Ramana and other renunciates chose option three - to ignore or "leave" it. And in your way, you have made your choice, also.

I am not for a moment arguing with you about those who have chosen to "earn a living" in the "self-realization business." I fully agree that many who do this are stuck with the trappings of capitalism which include "marketing, public image, credibility (Ken Wilber reminding us about the 25 books he has written), cashflow, customer relations, etc."

Some I like (Peter Fenner, Tim Freke, Eckhart Tolle), some I think less of (Ram Dass, Deepak Chopra, Ken Wilber, Andrew Cohen.) And in the capitalist marketplace, I get to make my choice.

But they don't. Once they have decided to "earn a living" in the current 'game' (capitalism), they have to charge for their services. In the big picture (which capitalism isn't, nor is socialism), yes, the most meanignful experiences in life are free. And frankly, I think that with all the websites, blogs, libraries, forums, that an individual could learn the essence of any teacher's nondual message for free, too.

Do not hate the desert because there is no rain.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby coriolis » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:47 pm

Sighclone wrote:Do not hate the desert because there is no rain.
Andy


Observing that the desert is dry does not, as far as I can tell, equate to "hating it".

Wondering if people who become wealthy pandering "spirituality" or "enlightenment" would continue to do it if it didn't pay so well is also a legitimate question without an ounce of malice attached to it :)

And the answer would definitively separate the wheat from the chaff.
Look deeply inside yourself and try to find yourself.
The ensuing failure is the true finding
---- Wu Hsin
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Re: Dalai Lama/Spritual Teachers money/possessions

Postby Sighclone » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:16 pm

By hating rain, I was referring to your evident distaste for capitalism.

And the answer would definitively separate the wheat from the chaff.


The capitalist presumption is that the marketplace currently does that. Why people pay to listen to Wayne Dyer, I do not know, however. But they do.

The root question for the teacher is "I do have to pay the rent. Teaching or writing or giving satsangs as much as I like to do takes my time, enough of it that I cannot hold a regular job. Should I not, then, charge for my services, and see what happens?" That's on day one. On day 700, after the teacher discovers that there is enough income to more than pay the rent, (because the students arrive, stay, learn, tell their friends, and more arrive, etc.) there are many other questions, such as: "How much is enough to have in the bank?" (Read the Martenson Report if you think you have the answer to that one.) "Should I offer 10% or X% of my stuff for free or very low cost?" YouTube has lots of stuff from these teachers for free. Used copies of their books are all over abebooks for $1. So if the answer to that question was "Nope, I do not have to give it away, because lots of it is out there, and I repeat myself all the time anyway," I can respect that.

The number of teachers who have failed to earn a living is unknown, but my guess is that it is far higher than the number who have succeeded. And perhaps the best teachers were economic "failures." Maybe they serve lattes...

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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