Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:19 pm

I also am not sure that the mission statement of the forum is to help people wake up. Maybe it should be, but I don't think it is.


I thought it was implied by the content here and on the home page:

http://www.inner-growth.info/power_of_n ... e_home.htm

Ok, It is what it is

Too nice a day to be indoors :D

Thanks Andy

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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:37 pm

Eric has said on his home page -

It is my desire and intent to make an online resource that would be helpful at promoting Eckhart Tolle's teachings.


Well, since ET encourages us to wake up, then promoting his teachings must also be that purpose, you would suggest, I believe. But again, who has the list of "perfect triggers for each person." Even Eckhart discourages clinging to one teacher or teaching to achieve enlightenment. If we are going to encourage a 'demolition project,' maybe some heavy equipment is appropriate...

Actually, it is snowing in Spokane...so odd.

But always always nice to hear from you, james.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:52 am

Andy:
Snow this time of year???

We had some warm sunny weather, now it looks like it is going to rain again.

Never mind about changing the title of this thread. It occurred to me when I was walking that it doesn't matter.

While out walking, I was reflecting on the idea that no thought is true. None of them are true.

james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:56 am

james -

Here is one that is true: I respect and admire you and your countless helpful words in this forum.

That is as true as it gets, anyway. In a way, that's not a thought, it's an emotion...it's love.

Thank you.

Namaste, Andy
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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby sevenworlds » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:28 am

James wrote:I am not suggesting anyone suppress or censor, but rather encourage or foster an atmosphere that is not conflict ridden, but rather more harmonious, and conducive to learning. I personally don't care for the drama, maybe others do?


and

James wrote:Emphasize what is preferred rather than opposing anything. It is about setting a tempo, that is how I see it.


Maybe it is unwise of me to join in here but having just caught this recent exchange between James and Sighclone, it's brought up a few things.

It's not my business personally, but clearing up the purpose of this forum might be a good idea because discussing spirituality and waking people up are two completely different things. If this is to be a place of discussing spirituality, it is probably running fine as it is. If it's about waking people up, then there could be more room for flexibility. For instance, staying on topic is not really conducive to that purpose. Sometimes veering off in another direction will happen. Also, any kind of censorship of expression is going to be a restriction. I'm not suggesting allowing people to come here and run riot but you will find that will be unlikely to happen anyway.

When you suggest encouraging, fostering or emphasising a certain atmosphere James, that is still using the will of thought to shape events here. If it's truly to be about waking people up, all ideas of any kind of atmosphere must be dropped, including any implied in this post. Something you might perceive as drama is not necessarily so. There has to be total trust that the right flow and energy will automatically take care of itself.

I don't see anything wrong with this forum as it is. These are just a few things I felt were worth pointing out.
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:46 am

Thank you Andy the feeling is mutual. That is about as close to real as a thought can get. Useful thoughts in service of truth.

If anyone is interested here are a couple movies, that are related to forgiveness. Forgiveness is really just letting go of, or seeing through, resentment, beliefs and should thinking about others.

The first film I watched the other night, and liked a lot:

The Ballad of Jack and Rose (2005)

Info and trailer:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0357110/

The other one I mentioned already in the movie thread, one of my favorite films:

Magnolia (1999)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0175880/

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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby mhtan » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:21 am

Hi all, i have been a reading deeply on ET's material since two years back and it have changed my live positively

If its ok, would like to post a link to an article where the reporter who i think is pretty astute brought up some criticism (and also defense) about Tolle. Can anyone reply if the criticism is valid? Namaste

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2009/09/0 ... art-tolle/ <- Link to material below!! Sorry for the upper case


DOUGLAS RESPONDS: I PROBABLY AGREE WITH TOLLE HERE. BUT I ALSO AGREE WITH PHILOSOPHER KEN WILBER THAT THE DANGER OF TEACHINGS SUCH AS THAT ABOVE IS THAT IT CAN ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO NOT ONLY DISENGAGE FROM THEIR OWN NEGATIVE THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS, BUT TO DENY THEM COMPLETELY. WE HAVE TO OWN UP TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NEGATIVE EMOTIONS. WE NEED TO INCLUDe THEM AS PART OF WHO WE ARE, THEN TRANSCEND THEM.

DOUGLAS RESPONDS: THIS SEEMS TO CONTRADICT TOLLE’S EXTREME EMPHASIS ON “THE NOW.” ALL OF A SUDDEN “THE NOW” IS NOT SINGULARLY SPECIAL WHEN TOLLE TEACHES THAT BEING IN “THE NOW” INCLUDES BEING AWARE OF THE PAST AND WORKING TOWARDS A GOAL. THAT’S NOT MUCH OF A FRESH INSIGHT. I THINK TOLLE MAKES AN IDOL OF “BEING IN THE NOW.” IT’S JUST COMMON SENSE THAT BEING PRESENT REQUIRES A SENSE OF THE PAST AND A LEANING TOWARD THE FUTURE. I THINK TOLLE UNDERRATES HOW MUCH WE ARE DRAWN, IN A HEALTHY WAY, TO THE POSSIBILITIES THE FUTURE OFFERS. INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT ‘BEING ( A LA HEIDIGGER ETC) I PREFER TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF ‘BECOMING.’

DOUGLAS RESPONDS: I TEND TO AGREE WITH TOLLE HERE. BUT I DON’T AGREE THAT ANYONE CAN EVER BE ‘ABSOLUTELY PRESENT.’ I DON’T LIKE THE WORD, ‘ABSOLUTELY.’ IT SOUNDS MAGICAL, OVER-SIMPLIFIED, THE KIND OF WORD A FUNDAMENTALIST WOULD USE. IT ALSO REDUCES SPIRITUALITY TO A KIND OF PEAK EXPERIENCE, WHICH IS ONLY ONE LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF SPIRITUALITY.

DOUGLAS RESPONDS: I AM A BIG FAN OF ENTHUSIASM. MOST PEOPLE ARE. IT’S COMMON SENSE. EVERY MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER AROUND SAYS THE SAME THING. THE FRENCH PHILOSOPHER AND NOBEL WINNER, HENRI BERGSON (left), WOULD CALL ENTHUSIASM ‘ELAN VITAL.’ THE GREEKS CALLED IT “EROS.” ALFRED bergson A defence of Eckhart TolleNORTH WHITEHEAD AND CHARLES BIRCH AND A HUNDRED OTHER PHILOSOPHERS IN THEIR GREAT TRADITION WOULD CALL IT ‘ZEST.” I THINK THIS IS WHERE TOLLE IS NOT AT ALL UNIQUE AS A PHILOSOPHER. IN FACT, HE’S JUST BORROWING FROM THINKERS OF THE PAST — AND, REGRETFULLY, IN MANY CASES NOT GIVING THEM CREDIT.

DOUGLAS RESPONDS: I HAVE NO TROUBLE AT ALL WITH PEOPLE READING TOLLE. BUT I DON’T LIKE THE WAY HE ACTS AS IF HIS APPROACH IS ABSOLUTELY NOVEL. I ESPECIALLY DON’T LIKE THE THE WAY HE TELLS READERS IN A NEW EARTH THAT IF THEY DON’T FIND PERSONAL ‘AWAKENING’ THROUGH HIS BOOKS, IT’S SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY’RE NOT SPIRITUALLY READY FOR IT. AS IF THEY ARE THE PROBLEM — NOT HIS LIMITED PHILOSOPHY.

DOUGLAS RESPONDS: YOU’VE RAISED SOME IMPORTANT POINTS, BAIRD. GIVEN THAT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE READING TOLLE THESE DAYS, HIS TEACHINGS ARE WORTH DISCUSSING AND DEBATING. TOLLE HAS SOME USEFUL THINGS TO SAY. BUT MY KEY HOPE IS FOR PEOPLE TO READ AND LEARN FAR BEYOND TOLLE. THEY’LL REALIZE HIS TEACHINGS ARE NOT AS RARE AS HE OR HIS PROMOTERS SUGGEST. I ESPECIALLY DISAGREE WITH HIS WEBSITE TELLING THE GROUPS THAT FORM AROUND HIS BOOKS AND DVDs THAT IT’S “BEST NOT TO ENGAGE IN DISCUSSION, AS IT TENDS TO STIMULATE THE MIND AND EGO.” THAT, MY FRIEND, IS DANGEROUS. IT HINTS AT THOUGHT CONTROL.


Thank you and much love.
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:29 pm

Welcome mhtan. I recognize you cut and paste which resulted in the upper case. Please be aware of the Rules, here:
viewforum.php?f=9

Both writers are discussing something which Eckhart tiptoes around. There is a huge shift in perception and in identity which occurs. It happened to him, and it has happened to many others. He took several years to integrate that experience with "the rest of his life," and came away with a fine writing skill to retain and express the mystery and wonder of awakening. The main message of both books is that people need to wake up. Very very true but he is far less concerned with the integration part in his books. Indeed, his "life after awakening" was simply "talking and writing about awakening." Not much of a switch -- he gets to kind of remain fully awake, have these delightful pauses before he responds to someone, and basically keep thinking about and writing about his big shift. The rest of us get to grind away at our jobs, have relationships with many family members (of which he has few) and generally deal face-to-face with a society full of "unconscious" people. Yes, he suggests that awakening enables that to go more smoothly. And in important ways it does. But there is the risk that both bloggers chat about: a kind of "spiritual bypassing" and not engaging with the emotions (painbody, whatever) of other people. And it is a risk, for sure. Google that term and/or check out JohnWelwood.com for deeper commentary. It is also called "Zen sickness."

Another spiritual writer, Dr. Tim Freke has a new book out titled "The Mystery Experience." One of his precepts is that awakening involves a "both/and" paradox, not an "either/or" paradox. He suggests that our "life in form" is very rich, that emotions are there to be felt and responded to, not avoided, and that the egoic identity "little me" is not something to be discarded. In fact he suggests that Awareness becomes Conscious via the human form, with the whole range of its experiences. Well worth reading for a broader view than Mr. Tolle provides, and offers more answers to your inquiry.

Andy
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:06 pm

Oh my, what a waste it is to look to a teacher for answers to inquiry.

Here's a link to Tolle's site where he suggests silent meditation with a suggestion that , "It is best not to engage in discussion, as it tends to stimulate the mind and ego." http://www.eckharttolle.com/search-local-group/.

Seems that for Tolle listed groups there is a format of silent meditation before and after. Not such a bad format. Is it control? Why not? I once went to an Adya meeting. The moderater suggested that we try not to get up and move about during the talk. I stood up and shouted, "You can't control me! Only my thoughts can!"
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at the rapid's roar?
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby mhtan » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:01 pm

Thanks SighClone and Randomguy for the reply. My appologies for the upper case again. Was really excited to see so many ET fans here.

Will take up your suggestion to visit the links.
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby painBody » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:22 am

This is a good thread to have. And, I've got a few cents to contribute.

(Putting aside, temporarily, the many things I appreciate about ET's teachings,) My biggest general complaint with Eckhart's teachings is that some of it (some of the really important stuff) is based on mere theory ... reading books, spending time with monks, etc, as opposed to real-life experience. Eckhart strikes me as the kind of guy who has lived his life largely by himself, without much human connection. And, because of this, he may not be the best example for a lot of people to follow ... what works for him may not work for most.

I covered this topic extensively in a couple of my threads. To summarize, the notion that the state of presence will bring success on the level of form (jobs, money, relationships) is very naive. It is quite the opposite, in the real world. Now, of course, Earthly success is only relative success, and presence is not to be used as a means to an end; I'm not denying all that ... I'm just saying, taking "success" for what it is, it is still misleading to say, "Presence will bring success." when the opposite seems to be true.

I'm very much a self-made person ... almost every single thing I have/know, I earned/learned by/for myself, through hard life experience. So, as much as I love teachings and theory, the best possible teacher is real life experience. And, it seems like some of what Eckhart claims is pure theory, with no empirical data to back it up; in fact, the empirical data seems to contradict some of his teachings.

Furthermore, I think that, because some of the stuff he teaches is purely theoretical, it can mislead people and cause a lot of disappointment and further suffering.
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby steve Davidson » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:33 pm

I see it very similarly as you do. Some of this stuff just does not apply or work in everyday life experiences in my opinion.

In real life, ego still rules this planet. As you pointed out in several of your posts, presence does not necessarily translate into success in the real world.

Tolle, even though he was in school and could have gone into his chosen profession he went to school for, he chose not to, after his awakening. I would be curious how he would have acted or been

present in that field, if he could have been a success in that field because he brought presence into it. If it would have been as easy to practice presence there, or if the real life world of that

profession would have been more difficult or unfulfilling for him. I wonder why he did not even give it a try. Sometimes I think many of these spiritual teachers can say what they say

because they arent working a normal 9-5 job that most of humanity has to toil under. And many teachers do not have a normal family either, with kids and a mortgage, etc. All of these things most

people have to deal with in daily life. I have read a lot of the spiritual teacher Ramana Maharshi, and even though he was very wise and a sage, he jokingly admitted he would not be a good husband,

for he was very picky and would not let anything go to waste, etc. He never had a love relationship or family or normal job. So even though he was a Sage of the highest caliber, his life was lived in a

ashram with no love relationships. So in a sense, I sometimes wonder if these teachings are that helpful or apply to our daily life. Dont get me wrong, being present, being in the now, being aware, is

all good, helpful, helps to a certain extent, but will not always translate so well in our society, as it is now.
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby painBody » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:56 am

steve Davidson wrote:Sometimes I think many of these spiritual teachers can say what they say because they arent working a normal 9-5 job that most of humanity has to toil under. And many teachers do not have a normal family either, with kids and a mortgage, etc. All of these things most people have to deal with in daily life.
...
So in a sense, I sometimes wonder if these teachings are that helpful or apply to our daily life. Dont get me wrong, being present, being in the now, being aware, is all good, helpful, helps to a certain extent, but will not always translate so well in our society, as it is now.


Exactly ! You hit the nail on the head.

These spiritual teachers live very unorthodox lives that just don't represent the "norm". They are outliers on a statistical bell curve.

The average person wants to be around people, wants to have kids and a home and whatever else. And, such a person would find a teacher more inspiring and the teachings more applicable if they saw "results" similar to those they themselves desire.

In other words, when you go to a gym to look for a fitness trainer, you will probably look for someone who has the kind of body you want to have, right ? Yet another analogy - why is it a law that, to be the president of the United States, you must have been born in America ? You need to intimately know the country you represent, right ? How could you lead/represent a population if you know nothing of their lifestyle/values ? Similarly, someone who assumes the role of a mentor, teacher, or role model (like Eckhart), would ideally be someone who typifies or represents his/her student population. Otherwise, it's like the blind leading the deaf.

Yes, you can learn from someone even if he/she has nothing in common with you, but I think the effectiveness of the teaching reaches a whole new level when your teacher is living the life you want to live or has obtained the "results" you want !
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby steve Davidson » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:24 am

Again, nicely stated PB and I see it the same way you shared. Those were great metaphors or analogies about what we are talking about. And just to say for the record, I have nothing but respect for teachers like Tolle or Ramana Maharshi, etc but just pointing out that they dont live normal lives like most of us, that is all. To some, it might not matter, and to others, they might find that it does matter and will say that some of what they say or teach might not apply or work out for those who lead worldly lives.

p.s. - Here is the little story about Ramana Maharshi and not being able to have a wife:

He would allow nothing to go to waste. Even a grain of rice or a mustard seed lying on the ground would be picked up, dusted carefully, taken to the kitchen and put in its proper tin. I asked him why he gave himself so much trouble for a grain of rice. He said: “Yes, this is my way. Everything is in my care and I let nothing go to waste. In these matters I am quite strict. Were I married, no woman could get on with me. She would run away.”
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby DavidB » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Sometimes when Tolle talks, he gets phlegm in his vocal cords and he doesn't clear it, he just keeps talking. :roll:
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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