Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby letitgo » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:22 pm

It seems that Tolle bashing is irrelevant. Tolle certainly doesn’t care. The only thing really being discussed here are beliefs relating to what Tolle believes which is relative to the observer and the individual himself. You believe what you believe about Tolle and I believe what I believe about Tolle.

The interesting thing in this massive thread is how everyone seems to “know” the intent and meaning of the writer. Kind of like everyone “knows” the meaning of bible. We really have to keep things in perspective when relating or relaying what a person actually means by this phrase or that phrase.

Eckhart Tolle has one perspective of life with peace and enlightenment. I doubt you will ever hear him say that he has the definitive answer on any given subject - some subjects are even obviously avoided - but it shouldn’t dissuade us from recognizing the core of his message. All this fringe-fighting has nothing to do with his message of presence and love which are the constant focus of all his writings and teachings.

I think when I began to stop logging on as much and posting to this forum was the day I found a discussion on whether Eckhart was truly enlightened, and someone responded that he wasn’t because he answered when someone called his name. At that point I realized that it might be best for me to just thumb through one of his books if I was curious about what his perspective might be on a certain subject, rather than attempt to get a filtered version of Eckhart through someone else’s opinion of his perspective.

Just stick to the core of the teachings, not the fringes, would be my advice, and allow his teachings to stand or crumble on that foundation - which I believe is pretty stable - unless a whole bunch of people with good intentions but bad interpretations, start inadvertently moving rocks around.

Norm
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:50 pm

Well said Norm, thank you.

What is often lost site of, is that awakening is about realization of what reality is, and that is beyond opinions and perspectives; it always is. Realization does not occur by thinking about something, forming an opinion, or view point based on reasoning and analysis. Realization happens mysteriously when the little "i" gets out of the way.

Eckhart has always said, not to take his word for it, not to form beliefs about what he wrote or said, but to find out for yourself. The writings and talks are pointers. If what he is saying is pointing to truth or reality, then others may have the same authentic realizations that he did, and that is the proof and the source of knowing. So if we are open minded and receptive to the flow of life, we can relax our opinions, skepticism, doubts, and simply say: "I don't know", "but I am willing to find out what is true."

If the pointer does not do it for you, pick up some other pointers that work. The pointers aren't the truth, just different ways to point to it. They are the fingers pointing at the moon, but not the moon itself. If someone points to the moon, and you look into the sky and still don't see it, do you condemn the finger that pointed, or do you adjust your vision until you can see it too?

Find out through this receptivity and realization, not through figuring it out with the mind, or jumping to conclusions. The jumping to conclusions, is a form of resistance to truth that keeps the little "i" in place. It keeps us in opposition, the little "i" likes opposition and division, it wants to remain separate and special. It can even pretend and trick us into believing that this divided state of opposition is enlightenment, when in fact it is high state of delusion.

When I hear a spiritual teacher says something that I don't get or don't understand, I just let it be. I know if it is true, it will be revealed to me when it is ready and time to be revealed. Tolle does say some things that sound prophetic regarding the future. Perhaps he has had realizations, and visions that we can't comprehend yet. In that case I give him the benefit of the doubt, as I do other spiritual teachers that are mostly on the mark. But again not taking their word for it, or believing what they say blindly, but finding out for myself through direct experience and realization.

james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Glycine » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:20 pm

Thank you for a nice post, James!
James wrote:So if we are open minded and receptive to the flow of life, we can relax our opinions, skepticism, doubts, and simply say: "I don't know", "but I am willing to find out what is true."

What if there is no absolute truth?
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:37 pm

Your welcome Glycine

You wrote:
What if there is no absolute truth?


Nisargadatta said there is "no ultimate understanding".

Reality on the other hand, is what it is, and is non negotiable. What we believe and think is true, how much or how little we understand it, has no bearing on reality. Realize for yourself what reality is, the little "i" can't do that, only the reality in you recognizes reality. :wink:

james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Glycine » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:38 pm

James wrote:Nisargadatta said there is "no ultimate understanding".
Reality on the other hand, is what it is, and is non negotiable.

Interesting! However, it appears to me that understanding is part of reality as well! Could it be possible?
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby aquarius123esoteric » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:26 pm

The way I see it, understanding comes to us as a gift from our Highest or God Self, usually after a spell of suffering. The more intense it has been, the greater the understanding. Without suffering no understanding can be found on the Earth plane.

With love - Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:15 pm

Glycine wrote:
Interesting! However, it appears to me that understanding is part of reality as well! Could it be possible?


The way I see it, understanding is always somewhat relative, although sometimes more clear than other times. Realty on the other hand always is, whether we understand it or not. Reality does not change or become altered by our perception. The dream sense of reality may change with perception, but not reality itself.

The word realization works better for me than understanding. Realization seems to come from that place within that is reality, not from the little "i", so it is reality witnessing reality; which always seems more definite, and clear. Of course in the human experience, there is always the possibility of distortion and subjectivity muddying the waters. So there is usually a gradual movement, towards greater realization and clarity of seeing, through surrendering the little "i". In rare cases this realization happens all at once, but from what I have heard from others as well as my own experience, most will experience it gradually.

james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Glycine » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:49 pm

Thank your James and Aquarius.
James wrote:Of course in the human experience, there is always the possibility of distortion and subjectivity muddying the waters.

You are right James. Many of our discussions and misunderstandings come from slight differences on how we perceive various words - for example "reality". Things become even more complicated when talk about concepts and theories. Turbidity keeps increasing. Maybe this is why silence is the best teacher!
To me, thinking and comprehension arise in the world of forms just as objects arise. We can look at them, feel them, but they continue to be fleeting expressions.

(P.S. - most of the last posts have not been about Eckhart bashing)
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby aquarius123esoteric » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:46 pm

Understanding comes to us as a gift from our Highest or God Self, i.e. the small earthly self can only find it with the help of its Highest Self.

Apart from everything else, I believe that it's all too easy to talk things to pieces. With too much jargon threshing, as I like to call this kind of thing, there is a great danger of losing any intuitive understanding that one would otherwise have found, as it rises from within the very core of one's own being. That, to me, is the blessing, healing and helping hand of the Highest Self, which is available to the heart and soul of all those who are willing to stop threshing jargon and to pay attention and follow its guidance.

With love - Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby HermitLoon » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:30 pm

This is what "little i " does...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZ1TKdV9pA
Peace
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:16 pm

I started this thread mainly to honor those who may join or wish to express sentiments, understandings, observations which might not agree with the style or phrasing used by Eckhart. Starting this thread formally may encourage thinking, even critical thinking. And we know that Eckhart rails against the tyranny of the mind. Is that a reason to end the thread?

Viewers and members of this mature forum approach it from many levels of awareness. Some are in critical anger mode to enlightenment and all things spiritual. Some are very intellectual. Some are "direct path" (ala Tony Parsons, and Sailor Bob) types who believe that any and all expressions of "the path" are facile and worthless.

This thread is not a place I would have visited early in my fascination with Tolle. But I enjoy it now because I appreciate refinements to Eckhart's message. The tone of PON is actually quite confrontational - re read pp. 133-140 for example. He directly confronts the misconceptions of his questioners. Can we not also be direct in our misgivings about his work? Even if we are "wrong?"

Namaste, Andy
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:36 pm

Nicely said Andy. I totally agree that having an open dialog is important and that we should challenge all our beliefs and assumptions. Awakening is about radical honesty. Some of the suggestions made by members have been helpful in refining pointers, or learning to use words in a clearer way.

However I think the title of this thread, seems to invite those that may want to incite or provoke in a toxic way. Those that aren't interested in honesty or sincerity, but rather pursuing an agenda of their own choosing to foist on others, to tear down or create chaos. As I see it, it is not a new consciousness of awakening but rather the same old unconscious mind, in a new disguise. Some of what I am reading lately on this forum in regard to spiritual teachers and supposed conspiracy theories, suggesting that these teachers are out to "mislead" "lull" "fleece" etc. sound like paranoid delusions to me. If I want to hear about that kind of stuff, I can go other places on internet, turn on the TV or Radio, or pick up the tabloid magazines at the supermarket checkout. :)

If it is not to late, perhaps the title of this thread could be changed so it doesn't suggest that this is an invitation to bash. Maybe something along the lines of "Constructive Criticism" or "Challenging Our Beliefs and Opinions". It does make sense to have these types of critical remarks in one thread though.

Just my opinion.


james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:46 pm

James -


I will certainly consider changing the title, and take it up with other mods. But the suppression of heartfelt disapproval, even in strident tones is not something I favor. In a way, the present title encourages all the venom to settle in one little rat's nest...which no one is required to visit.

Namaste, Andy
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby James » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:02 pm

Andy wrote:
But the suppression of heartfelt disapproval, even in strident tones is not something I favor


I am not suggesting anyone suppress or censor, but rather encourage or foster an atmosphere that is not conflict ridden, but rather more harmonious, and conducive to learning. I personally don't care for the drama, maybe others do? Yes it is fascinating and entertaining, but I am not sure it helps people wake up. Although who knows? LOL

Emphasize what is preferred rather than opposing anything. It is about setting a tempo, that is how I see it.

james
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Re: Eckhart Bashing - Bring It On

Postby Sighclone » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:10 pm

james -

but I am not sure it helps people wake up. Although who knows? LOL


My point exactly, (without the LOL :) ) You and I and many here tend to write in careful, articulate, gentle styles - full of love and respect, including our experiences in life and literature, etc. Those many posts continue to inspire me. But are we providing an area for all pointers and "non-pointers?" Sometimes it is necessary to see the pathetic arm-waving and narrow opposition of the ego, joined at the hip with his sidekick the pain-body to recall those same sad little creatures in ourselves. And then commit to take the next step. Who is to say?

I also am not sure that the mission statement of the forum is to help people wake up. Maybe it should be, but I don't think it is.

Andy
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