I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:18 pm

I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened and here's why.

I listened to the audio cds "Realizing the Power of Now" and there's an amusing part where he's backstage and he hears over the loudspeaker "The performance begins in 15 minutes" and "Showtime in 5 minutes" :D He says he felt a wave of anxiety flow through his body. That surely means he still has some remnants of ego left doesn't it? What do people think?
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby kiki » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:45 pm

It's not that there should be no remnants of ego, it's the recognition that ego isn't real and no longer getting trapped in it. There was a recognition in him of what happened and he returned to consciously embody his true nature. People have this idea that when someone is "enlightened" they no longer have an ego, and this is an incorrect notion. When you have the idea in place that ego must "die" you will inevitably work to kill it off - that mistake ensures that ego will remain dominant in your life because only an ego would embark on such a mission.

Once ego is recognized for what it is its presence tends to diminish all by itself, and will arise when needed. And when it arises when not needed, the "enlightened" one will see it very quickly. There is no need to go to war against it, which is what many people end up doing and then later wonder why they aren't getting anywhere.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:59 pm

kiki wrote: Once ego is recognized for what it is its presence tends to diminish all by itself, and will arise when needed.


When would there ever be a need for ego?

I thought that if you're completely self-realized then the ego would never return. As you said, it diminished when witnessed. If it diminishes then surely there comes a point where it'll never return. That's complete self-realization or enlightenment, where the ego never returns.

I agree with you entirely about not having a war at ridding oneself of the ego, as to be "aware" of it causes it to burn-up on it's own. But will there not come a point when it's burnt-up completely and so you've then fully awakened?
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby kiki » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:33 pm

When would there ever be a need for ego?


Ego is a repository of preferences. Given a choice I'd choose vanilla ice cream over anything else (more specifically, Breyers) but when ego can't have its preference whatever else is available will be just fine. Once awake, preferences can be met or not and it makes no difference because the conditioning that put them there no longer holds sway, yet they remain.

If it diminishes then surely there comes a point where it'll never return.


Maybe, maybe not. I think one must be careful about applying the word "surely" to this - it sets up an expectation, something to grasp for or to attain.

That's complete self-realization or enlightenment, where the ego never returns.


Enlightenment is already the case, it's your very nature; either you realize this or you don't. The degree of abiding there will definitely broaden/deepen, but I don't know if it will ever happen that ego never returns. All one can do is stay true with what's happening with themselves and not look to compare themselves with others. It's my suspicion that this broadening/deepening will carry on for the rest of your life, but who is to say that ego completely goes away? One has to find out for themselves what will happen, but whatever happens surrender to it.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby samadhi » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:48 pm

Steve, it seems to me that you're making 'awakening' into a concept or category, something the mind can identify, categorise and label.

It doesn't do any good to be using the mind to analyse Eckhart and then measure him up against this concept that you have of what it is to be "fully awakened".

Ultimately it's not our business whether Eckhart is awakened or not, but whether or not we ourselves are awakened. If we're too busy wondering whether others are, then it's probable that we aren't in that moment; that we've slipped back into mindcrap. Then we can just recalibrate, let it go and enter the s p a c e again...
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:04 am

Forgive me in advance this attempt at analogy.

Consider a puppet and its puppeteer. There is a risk in the puppeteer becoming so immersed in the puppet's activities, that the puppet's role is adopted as an identity. It's one thing for the puppeteer to recognize he is not the puppet, even though he speaks through it and interacts with other puppets as a designed personality. It's yet another to try and kill the thing to keep it from being in control of the puppeteer. First, it's not real. Second, to kill the puppet's personality makes interaction with other puppets an empty chore.

It's enough to recognize the game and stage and play, and participate with awareness. In the long run one may improve one's skills on a unique stage of life.

As to ego, once identification with the thoughts that gave a sense of a separate self is recognized, what remains is personality. It's still a thought structure through which one interacts with the world, it's just no longer an assumed identity.

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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:17 am

The way I see it is when you're stepping out of identification with mind/ego you are "awakening". The ego is being dissolved.

When your ego has been completely dissolved, no more compulsive, conditioned egoic thinking occurs. No fear or anxiety as Eckhart experienced. You are then enlightened and fully awakened.

I think that's what the teachings point to.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:31 am

Webwanderer wrote:
It's yet another to try and kill the thing to keep it from being in control of the puppeteer.

WW


I'm not talking about "killing" the ego. I'm talking about dissolving the ego by being aware of it as Eckhart teaches, to such an extent that the ego never returns and liberation is fully realized.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby kiki » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:58 am

I'm talking about dissolving the ego by being aware of it as Eckhart teaches,


What dissolves is the identification with it. Once that identification is broken ego's appearance becomes less and less. Then it's like an article of clothing that is temporarily put on and then taken off when no longer needed.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby johny » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:36 am

Well, I am not saying or bothered about who is awakened and who is not, but I find it funny when the awakened people talk about adam and eve. The idea of adam and eve is utter nonsense to me.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby weopposedeception » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:15 am

There is a lot of reference to "the ego" as if it were actually an object or thing. I see it more like an activity or a verb. It could be described as activities arising from, and reinforcing a belief in a separate person.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby karmarider » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:56 am

The current spiritual wisdom seems to think of the ego and pain-body as separate entities within us. This is just an academic categorization. The ego and pain-body are certain activities arising from conditioning, memory, and beliefs. The ego/pain-body division is appealing because it is easy to match it up to behavior.

Sanskrit/Yogic literature divides this up differently. Samskara is conditioning; karma are actions driven by samskara.

I prefer a very simplistic model. If I am feeling lighter, more joyful, more unified than I was three months ago, then I am more awakened than I was three months ago. By that model ET is very awakened.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:16 am

Don't get me wrong, Eckhart is definitely very awakened. Whether he's fully awakened, I don't think so. He says that his thought processes were reduced by 80% after his awakening. But that takes nothing away from his teachings. I've never heard a spiritual teacher explain things more clearly than Eckhart, his delivery is superb, and the fact he may still be experiencing some compulsive thinking could mean he's is a more powerful teacher than others because he can relate more to what we're going through.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby samadhi » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:13 pm

steve247 wrote:When your ego has been completely dissolved, no more compulsive, conditioned egoic thinking occurs. No fear or anxiety as Eckhart experienced. You are then enlightened and fully awakened.

I think that's what the teachings point to.


Yeah, but you don't KNOW that for sure. Enlightenment isn't - and can never - be what the mind thinks it is, because it's something unutterably alien to the mind. Fear is actually a biological impulse - it's physiologically hard-wired into us. I can't imagine ANYONE that never, ever experiences such twinges. What I would suppose is that, once awakened, you simply recognise these impulses for what they are and therefore don't identify them or let them take you over.

Can I say for sure? No.

And neither can you, so all I'm saying is please don't hold up Eckhart to what is merely a conceptualisation you hold of what it is to be 'awakened' and what can or can't happen in that state.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:40 pm

samadhi wrote:
Yeah, but you don't KNOW that for sure. Enlightenment isn't - and can never - be what the mind thinks it is, because it's something unutterably alien to the mind. Fear is actually a biological impulse - it's physiologically hard-wired into us. I can't imagine ANYONE that never, ever experiences such twinges. What I would suppose is that, once awakened, you simply recognise these impulses for what they are and therefore don't identify them or let them take you over.

Can I say for sure? No.

And neither can you, so all I'm saying is please don't hold up Eckhart to what is merely a conceptualisation you hold of what it is to be 'awakened' and what can or can't happen in that state.


Well it's a simple question, I'll be surprised if a spiritual teacher can't answer it. Either they occasionally get compulsive thinking or they don't. I would ask them specifically when they're challenged in some way. As Eckhart has said, it's easier to be in state of bliss if you're in a peaceful environment and aren't being challenged by other egos.

Fear is a biological impulse when one's life is threatened and serves a very important purpose. Egoic fear, that which Eckhart experienced, is not a biological impulse however and is in no way related to one's biological survival. Instead, it's related to the survival of the ego.
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