I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:38 pm

Thanks.

I just wish teachers would be clearer about what their everyday experience is like, particularly when faced with challenges. What exactly is experienced? It's easy to think that they always feel calm, serene and peaceful, because most of them look that way. But do they? That's the question, and students need to know this if they're not going to get the wrong impression.

There's a lot of mystique surrounding the words awakening and enlightenment and this often leads to misconceptions about what the experience is like. On the whole teachers don't go into this which is a shame. There is an English guy called Tony Parsons who explains exactly what's experienced, he doesn't shy away from it at all, it's a real breath of fresh air. I just wish more were like that. It makes me wonder whether they want to keep it a mystery, keeps them in a job after all :D
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:32 pm

I don't see awakening as entirely an either/or experience. My life, as I suspect is true for many in the forum, is still filled with emotional turmoil and mental rantings. The thing is there is another perspective that coexists with the rants and emotions. It's a recognition that what's happening isn't what I am. It's just stuff worth experiencing. (It must be, it's here)

Before that awareness dawned, these tumultuous sessions could go on and on. Now, with the clarity to see them for what they are, their presence is temporary and without residual effects. Even their frequency has waned. Obviously life hasn't stopped or turned me into a glow-faced Utopian, but I worry less and enjoy momentary experiences more. I don't hold grudges and forgive easily.

Has Tolle fully awakened, probably not. Fully is a very big word that is impossible to grasp. Is he exceedingly clear? No doubt. I can only look at my own awakening and recognize that its an ongoing process. I suspect it's the same for everyone.

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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby garuda » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:20 pm

Steve, your curiosity and a certain dissatisfaction is normal.

I think Webwanderer is right on! Notice what he is saying. Different teachers have different expressions, which is fine, with each teacher attracting a certain student at a certain level. But WW is telling it like it is, and perhaps in way you need to hear it. Be open to that. Many seekers struggle with this issue. We tend to misconstrue the awakening and its value.


steve247 wrote: I just wish teachers would be clearer about what their everyday experience is like, particularly when faced with challenges. What exactly is experienced?

Are you after the experience or the awakening? Do you want only a certain experience, or the awakening and whatever that awakening amounts to? And how would knowing the teacher's "exact state of mind" help you with your practice or your attainment? Isn't it his teachings that transforms you, not his state? Knowing the experience-story of the teacher's awakened state won't necessarily awaken you. It may inspire you at first, but later that "inspiration" must be shed or converted to determination in order to reach.

steve247 wrote:.....they always feel calm, serene and peaceful, because most of them look that way. But do they? That's the question, and students need to know this if they're not going to get the wrong impression.

How do you know for sure what they are feeling inside? Their outward appearance may not always reflect their innermost state or feelings. And does it really matter what they feel? Shouldn't we all be more concerned about ourselves instead of the teacher's demeanor, behavior, or state of mind? Shouldn't we be more concerned about our own practice and states of mind? How can his appearance, behavior, or habits help us? Whether he is calm or wears a robe won't affect our awakening, will it? Try to be mostly concerned about your state of mind, not their's.

steve247 wrote:I just wish teachers would be clearer about what their everyday experience is like....

The teachers that don’t go into detail, do it for a good reason — compassion for you! They don’t want you to become seduced by the experience or the outcome. They don’t want to add fuel to your tail-chasing. We all tend to fantasize about this extraordinary state of bliss and peacefulness that frees us from our entanglement. That motive or expectation of freedom, may in fact be the last obstacle to your awakening!

The teacher knows this and therefore steers you away from looking for the bliss, the mood, the state, and all the other conceptual masturbation we tend to engage in. They just want you to do the practice and not waste time fantasizing over the goal or outcome. In spending more time in one's practice, instead of fantasizing over the results... will likely speed up the awakening.

steve247 wrote: There's a lot of mystique surrounding the words awakening and enlightenment and this often leads to misconceptions about what the experience is like. On the whole teachers don't go into this which is a shame. There is an English guy called Tony Parsons who explains exactly what's experienced, he doesn't shy away from it at all, it's a real breath of fresh air. I just wish more were like that. It makes me wonder whether they want to keep it a mystery, keeps them in a job after all :D

You might be very surprised upon reaching the goal, only to discover it was nothing like you expected. Nothing like your limited mind construed. It’s peaceful, contenting, loving, and all that — but it’s very ordinary and quite unspectacular. Compared to your present state of mind right now, the so-called awakened state may be very boring, uneventful, and very un-dramatic. The thing that makes it so extraordinary..... is its sheer ordinariness!

Listen to WW and others here; and concentrate on your practice.
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby karmarider » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:06 pm

Yeah, I think WW has explained it well. Here's Joan Tollifson's spin on it: http://www.joantollifson.com/writing8.html
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Snuppy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:03 am

NO one gets enlightened. Their is the realization, the seeing that the thinker, the thoughts of the thinker is not oneself. Their is no self, their is only existance. this can be known, this can be felt, this can be experienced, an on going experience of experiencing oneness, not a self experiencing one-ness, but a oneness experiencing a body, a thought, etc. One as a separate entity has ended. The other has begun. the other was their all along, but the ego responding to an ego, an ego responding to feelings somewhat brought about by the very insecure reality of an ego, and the belief of that ego as oneself, prevented what is from being experienced. Existence experiencing a body and its functioning.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:52 pm

Snuppy wrote:Their is the realization, the seeing that the thinker, the thoughts of the thinker is not oneself.

Then what is it?

Their is no self, their is only existance.

Existence of what?

this can be known, this can be felt, this can be experienced,

What knows it? What feels it? What experiences?

not a self experiencing one-ness, but a oneness experiencing a body, a thought, etc

What is this oneness, and what quality or capacity allows oneness to experience, cause and interact with the environment at hand with all its content? My daily experience is unique from that of you or anyone else. The experience is real if not the structures that stage it. What is the quality that allows for independent experience of varying conditions? Simply discounting the existence of a self quality is insufficient. What experiences life?

Ego is known to be a mental construct, but what endows ego with a sense of being? Most all of us took on the persona of ego as self, at least until it was seen for what it was. But what saw ego for what it was? Self seems to have survived the exposure of the ego's false identification.

While we can acknowledge that ego itself is not a real in the larger sense, 'self' is not so easily dismissed.

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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Mouse » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:53 am

Well said Webwanderer. Your logical analysis rings true to me. I see false 'self' as a mental and emotional construct. People often see it as just mental but without the force of accompanied emotion or feeling it would be a less convincing show.

I see it as all self here, and the best we can do is to be free of negativity (the false self), and be true to the 'sweet nature' inherent in the body. "Enlightenment is to be free of negativity" and that is not a happy-clappy state.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Salem » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:17 am

kiki wrote:
I hope people aren't feeling I've offended their Guru.


OMG - I hope nobody thinks of him as a guru; I certainly don't and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't want to be thought of as one either.


Why couldn't one think of Tolle as their guru, and why would that bother him? Aren't some teachers gurus?
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:27 am

Guru just means teacher doesn't it? Nothing wrong with that. The trouble comes when you think they have something you don't.
Last edited by steve247 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby Ziendus » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:25 am

That too is Nature doing its thing.
Feeling that others have more, feeling lack, striving, envy.
Or the other way around, feeling that others have less, and being happy about that.
And then comes the idea, the feeling, that something should be done about these feelings.
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby steve247 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:37 pm

Exactly right
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby kiki » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:58 am

Why couldn't one think of Tolle as their guru, and why would that bother him? Aren't some teachers gurus?


I don't like the word "guru" because it is so often misunderstood, especially when applied to someone else. My perspective may be different than yours because of my background. I've seen for myself what people often do when they make someone else their spiritual guru - they put the responsibility for their awakening on someone else and set themselves up to be manipulated.

The true "guru" is within oneself. Guru is that which removes darkness (ignorance), and nobody can do that for you. Tolle is a very good teacher, but he cannot remove anyone's ignorance. He can point you to the guru within, but he can never be anything other than a teacher, a pointer to the truth that lies within. If anyone outside oneself could remove ignorance there would be many many millions of awakened people.

People who set themselves up as a guru can easily fall into another egoic trap. The power that comes from presenting oneself as a spiritual guru to others is very seductive, and more than one "guru" has fallen victim to that power. Stories of manipulation and exploitation abound in spiritual communities headed by "gurus". I think ET would prefer the label of teacher rather than "guru" because of that very thing. Thinking of oneself as a guru is an invitation for trouble down the line.

Guru just means teacher doesn't it? Nothing wrong with that.


That's become the common usage of that term in the west, and if that's the limit of how you use the word, then fine. But the deeper and more spiritual meaning of this sanskrit term has to do with the removal of the darkness (ignorance) that covers truth, and no one can do that for you.

The trouble comes when you think they have something you don't.


That's right, and too many people think a spiritual "guru" has something you don't, and they end up remaining on surface teachings from an outside "authority" rather than going deeper and discovering truth directly from the inherent deeper true authority of the inner guru, the consciousness that You are. It's consciousness that removes darkness through its inherent "light", and nobody can give that consciousness to you.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: I don't think Eckhart has fully awakened

Postby heidi » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:32 am

See, that's why we call Kiki our resident guru. :mrgreen:
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