Money

Is he enlightened? Why does he charge so much money? Does he have an ego? All these unimportant issues and more =)

Money

Postby whitman77 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:55 pm

Hi Everyone,

I have read and listened to a great deal of Eckharts books. I have found them extraordinarily powerful. I have recommended them to many people. Today i went out and bought Kim Eng's Meditations. There is one thing though that keeps coming up in my mind...When i see the cost of his seminars and his books I am just curious to know where all this money is going. As someone who is a seeker and who still feels far off i am wondering if this is indeed the right route to take. Why does everything cost so much? Maybe the money goes to charities I don't know. I feel it is a very important issue though.

If anyone could help with this question I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Whitman
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Re: Money

Postby Ananda » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:39 pm

Well, I don't know where all of the money for the books and seminars goes to , but I will say that no amount of spending money is going to help you. One book is enough help for you, if you get the message written in it.
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Re: Money

Postby whitman77 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:31 pm

Hi Ananda,

Thanks for your reply. Not really what i was asking but your point is correct.

Whitman
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Re: Money

Postby nodoubt » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:35 am

[. I feel it is a very important issue though.

Hello Whitman

Probably unnecessary thinking. Maybe you have some mental template that spiritual gurus must match.

Who is offended. This some how sounds ego based,spiritual wind drag,why hold on to this concept?
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Re: Money

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:18 pm

Don't let speculation over ET's finances distract you from what's important. This topic has been discussed in this forum ad nausium. Those who maintain unfounded concerns usually end up wasting a valuable resource.

Back in the 70"s I would not read Rajneesh because of the controversy over his life style. I totally missed his message because of reports I had no personal knowledge of. I could however, have looked at his teachings directly and gained a great deal in seeing things clearly. Instead I had to find other resources.

Look not to the pointer, but to what is pointed to.

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Re: Money

Postby OnthePath » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:09 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Back in the 70"s I would not read Rajneesh because of the controversy over his life style. I totally missed his message because of reports I had no personal knowledge of. I could however, have looked at his teachings directly and gained a great deal in seeing things clearly. Instead I had to find other resources.

We have to be careful with this. Although I agree with the "look not to the pointer but to what it points to" statement, I have to mention that a lot of gurus have based their control over their sects' members using this policy-- what we call in French"La politique du Curé" which stands for "Do what I tell you to do and don't do what I do". I have heard of horror stories where teachers abused their students and when students complained, they were told that they shouldn't find fault with those teachers and should ignore their behavior and instead focus on their practice because the teachers are just pointers. Recently I read something about an Advaita Vedanta teacher who made sexual advances to one of his female students and when she complained he said: it wasn't him; it was his mind and he was not responsible of what his mind made him do.

I think while we shouldn't concentrate on the teacher-- what he/she does or doesn't do-- we have to be aware that certain things are not acceptable, and it's not just because the mind is making us believe so.
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Re: Money

Postby whitman77 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:15 pm

I think while we shouldn't concentrate on the teacher-- what he/she does or doesn't do-- we have to be aware that certain things are not acceptable, and it's not just because the mind is making us believe so.

I agree...
a teacher must to a large degree lead by example...Jesus on the cross is an action which points to a truth. Whether you say its mental noise or not i think someone profiting from a spiritual teaching is an extremely important issue. Eckharts message reminds me of a truth i knew already but which i often lose. It is profound and important. The issue with him as a person is of course relevant though. Buddha/ Jesus were not walking into riches but away. If Eckhart was an alcoholic wife beater but had the same message would you listen?
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Re: Money

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:19 am

whitman77 wrote:
I think while we shouldn't concentrate on the teacher-- what he/she does or doesn't do-- we have to be aware that certain things are not acceptable, and it's not just because the mind is making us believe so.

I agree...
a teacher must to a large degree lead by example...Jesus on the cross is an action which points to a truth. Whether you say its mental noise or not i think someone profiting from a spiritual teaching is an extremely important issue. Eckharts message reminds me of a truth i knew already but which i often lose. It is profound and important. The issue with him as a person is of course relevant though. Buddha/ Jesus were not walking into riches but away. If Eckhart was an alcoholic wife beater but had the same message would you listen?

Point well taken. But speculation and imagination is not fact, and ET deserves the benefit of the doubt until someone can show a pattern of abuse in his relationships with his followers (if he even has any in an organized group) or that he has taken the path of personal opulence and Rollex watches.

It remains hard to deny the depth and value of his teachings, nor that they are generally available for little cost.

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Re: Money

Postby borris83 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:11 am

I have heard of horror stories where teachers abused their students and when students complained, they were told that they shouldn't find fault with those teachers and should ignore their behavior and instead focus on their practice because the teachers are just pointers.


There is a misunderstanding here which arises out of language... I think both Webwanderer and Onthepath are right but talking about two different things...

Eckhart once says in 'The Power of Now', that when you hear the truth, the truth inside you responds to it... Something inside knows for sure that it is true.. These are called pointers. If you are a true student, then you certainly meet the true guru in some form. But it is very important to be open minded to allow the truth inside us to respond to the truth which is heard. Webwanderer is talking about this open mindedness towards the teachings..

Onthepath is talking about blind faith and it's dangers... As long as you have blind faith, the truth is hidden. That's why it is said to even kill the Buddha when you meet him in your path. It is very important to understand the truth this points to. And both blind faith and a true surrender can make us to give our whole life to a guru.. And many people misunderstand that their blind faith is 'true surrender' and they let the false gurus to exploit them..

Regarding Eckhart's sessions too costly, I want to say this.. If someone proves that Eckhart is not at all realized and he is spending the money he earns only for selfish reasons, may be I won't read anything from Eckhart in future and remain closed.. But If I remember what was happening inside me when I read 'the power of now", I know for sure that no matter who wrote those words, there is some truth in it...That truth definitely has done the job in the background, no matter what opinion I had, I have and I will have about Eckhart in future...

So if some words can point something beyond words, why would I care who uttered those words? If someone's presence has given me a glimpse of truth, why would I care whose presence it is?
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Re: Money

Postby OnthePath » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:53 pm

whitman77 wrote:
If Eckhart was an alcoholic wife beater but had the same message would you listen?

A very tricky question! Of course my answer would be no, then when I think of James Brown for example, he was "a wife beater" or so the media said, but I still love his song "This is a Man's World but it would be nothing without a woman or a girl"... However if James Brown gave a spiritual speech and gave tips on how to have the best relationship with one's partner, I'd say that I would need a great deal of presence to tolerate the thought of him doing that. :D
Last edited by OnthePath on Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Money

Postby OnthePath » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:It remains hard to deny the depth and value of his teachings, nor that they are generally available for little cost.
I was not talking of ET when I wrote my message about abusive teachers. What ET gave to the humanity is priceless. But again if I heard that ET abused his partner, I would have a hardtime absorb his teachings and I say that while I am fully present.
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Re: Money

Postby OnthePath » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:51 pm

borris83 wrote:


So if some words can point something beyond words, why would I care who uttered those words? If someone's presence has given me a glimpse of truth, why would I care whose presence it is?


The thing is that most of us- if not all of us- when we started reading about ET, we wanted to end our suffering. We didn't read ET just for recreational purposes. Everybody wants happiness. It's a fact! Now let's be frank; when we read the PoN or ANE, didn't we all look for the author's personal life on the web? Who wasn't curious about the person behind those books? Why were we curious about him? Personnaly I wanted to know how he handled his life since the day his ego vanished. I wanted to know and I still want to know how our life can change when we are no longer ruled by our ego. If for instance I heard that he stole something or abused his partner or his dogs, I'd immediately think if this realized person did these things knowing that he had no ego, then something was wrong with him and I would question his teachings as well.
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Re: Money

Postby whitman77 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:12 pm

The thing is that most of us- if not all of us- when we started reading about ET, we wanted to end our suffering. We didn't read ET just for recreational purposes. Everybody wants happiness. It's a fact! Now let's be frank; when we read the PoN or ANE, didn't we all look for the author's personal life on the web? Who wasn't curious about the person behind those books? Why were we curious about him? Personnaly I wanted to know how he handled his life since the day his ego vanished. I wanted to know and I still want to know how our life can change when we are no longer ruled by our ego. If for instance I heard that he stole something or abused his partner or his dogs, I'd immediately think if this realized person did these things knowing that he had no ego, then something was wrong with him and I would question his teachings as well.


I have recommended Eckhart's books to so many people that it seems strange me writing here in this context.

So that it is clear i am not saying that ET is doing wrong because i do not know this is the case. Eckhart's teaching has touched me more than any other teachings i have heard/ read. When i finished listened to the power of now i spent the next few days constantly laughing. Felt the power of the truth. I would just like to know where all the money goes.

If the message is so important why are the teachings all not available for free on the web? Initially this would be almost impossible as there is a cost and therefore money must be generated in order to do so. Now there is money. If the money is going towards a charity or towards education I would be happy.

I think OnThe Path's comments above are spot on.

If this subject has been discussed at length previously I wish Eckhart would explain as obviously many people are curious.

Maybe to an enlightened person this issue would not matter as the truth would speak for itself. I am not enlightened.I think that unlikely though. If you saw your meditation master caught up in a road rage incident I think we would all look for a differnt master. Of course a spiritual teachers life and their actions are important.
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Re: Money

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:15 pm

OnthePath wrote:The thing is that most of us- if not all of us- when we started reading about ET, we wanted to end our suffering. We didn't read ET just for recreational purposes. Everybody wants happiness. It's a fact!

That wasn't the case for me. I picked up TPON because I was drawn to it as a source of greater understanding into the nature of life/being. It had more to do with the desire to know truth than to escape suffering.
Now let's be frank; when we read the PoN or ANE, didn't we all look for the author's personal life on the web? Who wasn't curious about the person behind those books? Why were we curious about him?

Again, for me this played no role. I certainly understand that some may have such an interest and I'm not trying to be critical (we all have our own path), but I was happy with the pointers he offered. Seeking out his personal life would certainly expose his pimples - but to what end? The truths he offered stood alone as recognized in my own experience. After all, he only pointed out what was already present to be seen. How could knowing how he treats his dog change the reality so clearly pointed out within me?

Now as a result of continued study of his teachings I have become aware of some of his personal life, but that is a by product and not something I overtly pursued. It is the same with Nisargadatta, Adya and a whole host of others. I deeply appreciate their contributions and (for me) I prefer not to look to their personal expression too closely. Of course I do not idolize these teachers and see them as human expressions with their own set of challenges. So their human frailties is not something that I want to color what I glean from their teachings. The value is what it awakens directly within my own perception. I'm good with that.

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Re: Money

Postby whitman77 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:31 pm

hi Webwanderer,

I respect your opinion but to me that sounds naive. The Dalai Lama himself says that people should question and test things out... if ET says he is enlightened but is driving around in a BMW and drinking every night etc then it would point to the fact that whilst some things may sound wonderful they may not be true and therefore the signpost is pointing in the wrong direction no matter how great it sounds... I have had many nights when after a bottle of wine i feel fantastic does this mean that drinking a bottle of wine is good for me...many cult leaders sounded fantastic... hence their following. I think ET would say that the mind is a tool and we should use it... we should question etc... I for one will not stop following the signposts he hasd put out but I would like some reassurance. Why is the teaching not free?

Buddhists historically would be able to trace their teachers in theory almost back to the Buddha. This is because we need to know that the truth is coming from a reliable source. Thats all.
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