Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
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janlappa
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Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by janlappa » Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:58 pm

While being aware of the self-talk in my mind and the thought patterns of the ego felt like it made me more present at moments in the beginning, I have also had few moments of genuine presence, during meditation, things have now taken a turn for the worse. I have become completely overwhelmed by the self-talk, particularly the negative aspect of it and the emotions that comes with it - to the point where being around other people is even more difficult than it ever was before.

I have read of some similar experiences, and the explanation usually offered is that this is the ego struggling to survive. This is something I find very hard to accept. I can accept that the ego is a product of conditioning from ourselves and our surroundings, but I cannot accept that it is some malignant being with a will of its own that tries to harm us, which is one reason, I suppose, which is why I feel so lost and confused by these awful experiences I am having at the moment.

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by end » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:59 pm

I am sure that you will receive some good answers here. You are resisting to your ego and your feelings. There is nothing wrong with your ego or your feelings, don't make them enemies, just try to relax and allow them to be. You can't fight with what is in you, if you do so, it will rise stronger! Just relax.. It is hard but to resist is harder. Relaxation brings awareness, in awareness your ego will vanish.

janlappa
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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by janlappa » Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:19 pm

Appreciate the response and the advice.

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:17 am

janlappa wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:58 pm
I have read of some similar experiences, and the explanation usually offered is that this is the ego struggling to survive. This is something I find very hard to accept.
I tend to agree with you on this. The ego isn't some separate conscious being hidden within our minds. The way I see it is that the ego is a perspective built on a structure of identifications and beliefs. It is the same self, the same consciousness, that sees through, and as, ego as can also see beyond it once properly focused. The ego is a life-long habit of identifications adopted since our physical births. It is just a framework through which we live these human lives.

janlappa wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:58 pm
I have become completely overwhelmed by the self-talk, particularly the negative aspect of it and the emotions that comes with it - to the point where being around other people is even more difficult than it ever was before.
The elements within our minds that create this babbling self talk generally have a strong history of emotional anchoring. It's quite the challenge to get beyond it. Even when we think we have, it often comes back when we get distracted by the events and people around us. One of the best things you can do is have a practice that refocuses you on the mindfulness, or presence awareness, that brings us the peace that we seek.

Of course meditation is such a practice, but it's not always easy to stop what we are doing to assume the lotus posture. What you can do is learn to use your senses to bring you back to the moment with a sense of freedom from the spinning thought storms. For example, stop what you are doing in this minute and just listen. Not for anything in particular, but just to get back to the now.

Make no analysis of what is there. Just pay attention to the silence under whatever sounds are present. Rest in this listening for a while and notice how it brings you back to your sense of being - a sense of now. (An author I know said there is power in the now)

You can do the same with touch simply by feeling something within your reach. Touch something, feel it, without any attempt to put words to a description. Sight can also be used in this way. Look at the environment you are in without description or assumption. See it for the first time. Rest in this perceiving. While this can be done with any of the senses, listening seems to be the most effective, especially when combined with sight. A couple of deep breaths can also assist in this re-centering.

The point is this can be done most anytime and anywhere. Make it a practice and you can tame the wild mind. Whenever you realize the mind is on a tear, make this practice your go to response. You can't win an argument with arising thoughts. The argument is much of the problem. Recognize it for what it is, without judgment, (that's just more ego expression) and move to your practice. Over time it will become an automatic response and much of the self talk will die of neglect.

WW

janlappa
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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by janlappa » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:23 am

Thanks for your reply webwanderer, I have had some thoughts (oops) along the lines of what you are saying and I definitely find it helpful to hear someone else's perspective on a specific issue that has preoccupied my mind.

"The ego isn't some separate conscious being hidden within our minds. The way I see it is that the ego is a perspective built on a structure of identifications and beliefs. It is the same self, the same consciousness, that sees through, and as, ego as can also see beyond it once properly focused. The ego is a life-long habit of identifications adopted since our physical births. It is just a framework through which we live these human lives."

Yes - this is how I see the ego. I can understand it as a presence within us that has arisen through years of conditioning from within and without, and is therefore a behavioural pattern that can be arise again and again even if are aware of it and don't want it to have control of your thoughts. But when Echart Tolle, for instance, talks about how the ego "loves" this or "fears" that, or is looking for an opportunity to do this and that - this is when I start becoming sceptical. This isn't really a problem and maybe it is good to realize that Echart Tolle is not supposed to be believed as dogma or as some infallible manifestation of the universe, it is the core message that is of importance.

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:05 pm

janlappa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:23 am
But when Echart Tolle, for instance, talks about how the ego "loves" this or "fears" that, or is looking for an opportunity to do this and that...
I think when you take Tolle's statement as referring to a 'perspective' built of identifications and beliefs about self and life in general, it makes more sense. Ego is not a separate being, but rather an individualization within our consciousness. One that each of us built as a vehicle through which to interact with this human experience. Who is it after all, that experiences the loves and fears attributed to the ego? We are the ego as well as the larger consciousness that built it. That's good to know because it gives us a measure of power over it.

Sound like a duality? One element of non-dual understanding is the recognition that ego is not real as a separate identity. Ego identification is real however, as an experience. The way I see it is that experience is the essence of reality. While one can believe we are simply human beings with a consciousness born of a physical brain and will cease to exist with the death of the body, the larger reality points to an infinite existence of which this human exploration is but a temporary experience.

To be clear, the fundamentals of the beliefs about experience, such as ego identifications, are not real, but the experiences of those beliefs are. Even it if is an experience of a false belief, the experience of believing something that is false is real. That experience is valuable towards the evolution of our consciousness and being, even though we may not recognize it from within our adopted belief structures. It is an exploration of this human condition experience from our larger consciousness reality.

WW

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by janlappa » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 pm

This sounds right:

"I think when you take Tolle's statement as referring to a 'perspective' built of identifications and beliefs about self and life in general, it makes more sense. Ego is not a separate being, but rather an individualization within our consciousness. One that each of us built as a vehicle through which to interact with this human experience. Who is it after all, that experiences the loves and fears attributed to the ego? We are the ego as well as the larger consciousness that built it. That's good to know because it gives us a measure of power over it."

I think this point by end also "don't make them enemies," is very accurate when it comes to what is happening in my mind. After becoming aware of the self-talk and ego as something that happens without me consciously making it happen, my reaction to it has largely been resistance and a sense of being invaded by an enemy. This resistance is automatic, like a defence system that I don't know how to shut off.

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:14 pm

janlappa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 pm
After becoming aware of the self-talk and ego as something that happens without me consciously making it happen, my reaction to it has largely been resistance and a sense of being invaded by an enemy. This resistance is automatic, like a defence system that I don't know how to shut off.
I gave you my suggestion as to how to overcome it in my previous post. Remember, all this automatic self talk comes from your subconscious. You put it there, as we all have to whatever degree in our own. But consider what you are doing when you say you don't know how to shut it off. Are you not giving your power away to the problem you are wanting to correct? Wouldn't it be better to open the doors to possibilities by saying "I'll find a way", "this is not so bad", or something to that end.

There are lots of ways to put a spin on it that takes away its power rather than reinforcing it. Think up lots of positive ways to think of it. Yes, it's a problem, but not an insurmountable one. Think of it more as a challenge, maybe one you came to this life to work on. Use some of the same routes into your subconscious that created the problem to lessen it. One last important element I want to share is the power of belief. To the degree you believe you will overcome this issue, or believe you will fail, will likely determine the outcome.

WW

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Re: Struggling after experiencing some moments of presence

Post by end » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:53 pm

janlappa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 pm
This resistance is automatic, like a defence system that I don't know how to shut off.
And this is resistance to the resistance. It's tricky but when you start notice these layers.. Well, this is just work in progress. Don't make it something huge in your mind, relax as much as you can.

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