why become whole?

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

why become whole?

Postby DJW » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:02 pm

Hi- I have used the word whole because i like it better than enlightenment since many people dont really know how to define what that really is?
this post is not a critisism, it is a question...


anyway- about me- i have had many glimpses and i "think" i might be in a high state of awareness- i did not choose this- i believe it chose me.
whatever "it" is...but anyway- in those moments where the door cracks open slightly- i have felt conected-love-joy-peace-care-and probably every other amazing awe-inspiring feeling.

and ,like many others i did not want that feeling to leave me. but it eventually does...that sucks because it is confusing to me-- am i nuts etc? i slip back to what you call the illusion...i dont like this because it really makes me wonder if ill ever keep that awareness of the moment..yet im still generally happy in my life- i like myself etc.

im aware of the ego- of living in the present moment-- of knowing i have the choice to live in that moment or not- and that everything happens for a reason..and i can go on and on about what ive learned-

the problem is ive been told- that this is a better way- but im trying to reconcile that- since im not motivated to really seek, yet when i experience these moments- or rather-"the moment" its great. but what is it leading to?

the paradox and my question is: if this feeling leaves me- if these glimpses dont last- what makes it any more usefull to me than say winning a lottery which allows my happiness to come from a place "not within me?" things like money -and posessions etc which define happiness in our western world.(no i actually do not need or necessarily want those things but need to know this answer)...if the feeling goes- then it is no better to be enlightened, if in the process the feeling leaves and you still have ups and downs...and return to your routine of external attachments?

it then is no different than the "real" world. since all feelings come -then leave.

the issue is that i doubt highly that there are many people who are permently enlightened.so few in fact- that it seems why bother -my chances are so slim!?

so why bother with the work? after all if the glimpses last a few minutes or a couple hours and dreaming of a yacht makes me happy for the whole time when im building it then enjoying it...how is enlightenment any better??
please help clarify this point?
thanks in advance
|Doug
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Re: why become whole?

Postby karmarider » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:35 pm

Hi DJW.

DJW wrote:Hi- I have used the word whole because i like it better than enlightenment since many people dont really know how to define what that really is?


I say natural human being.

anyway- about me- i have had many glimpses and i "think" i might be in a high state of awareness- i did not choose this- i believe it chose me.
whatever "it" is...but anyway- in those moments where the door cracks open slightly- i have felt conected-love-joy-peace-care-and probably every other amazing awe-inspiring feeling.


If you're looking for high states I don't have much to say. But if you're looking to be natrual human being, where the mind is free of resistance and nuerosis, I can suggest that the looking technique John Sherman suggests is effective.

and ,like many others i did not want that feeling to leave me. but it eventually does...that sucks because it is confusing to me-- am i nuts etc? i slip back to what you call the illusion...i dont like this because it really makes me wonder if ill ever keep that awareness of the moment..yet im still generally happy in my life- i like myself etc.


You have expectations and mental projections of what it will be like. I did too--that always gets in the way.

im aware of the ego- of living in the present moment-- of knowing i have the choice to live in that moment or not- and that everything happens for a reason..and i can go on and on about what ive learned-


It's popular in spiritual circles to demonize the ego and mind--I haven't found anything wrong with these. When the fear goes, the ego and mind are not troublesome, and they are completely necessary to operate in the world as a human being.

the problem is ive been told- that this is a better way- but im trying to reconcile that- since im not motivated to really seek, yet when i experience these moments- or rather-"the moment" its great. but what is it leading to?

the paradox and my question is: if this feeling leaves me- if these glimpses dont last- what makes it any more usefull to me than say winning a lottery which allows my happiness to come from a place "not within me?" things like money -and posessions etc which define happiness in our western world.(no i actually do not need or necessarily want those things but need to know this answer)...if the feeling goes- then it is no better to be enlightened, if in the process the feeling leaves and you still have ups and downs...and return to your routine of external attachments?


This feeling of back-and-forthness, of three-steps-forward-and-two-back is very common. And frustrating. Use your intuition and your next step will be clear.

it then is no different than the "real" world. since all feelings come -then leave.


It's not different from the real world in any case. What changes is the context of the mind.

the issue is that i doubt highly that there are many people who are permently enlightened.so few in fact- that it seems why bother -my chances are so slim!?


If you're interested in enlightenment, that's cool. But if you see that it's really a matter of just being naturally human, free from the nuerotic fear of life, and not escaping who you are by chasing enlightenment or spirituality or transcendence and so on--that is natural and achievable.

so why bother with the work? after all if the glimpses last a few minutes or a couple hours and dreaming of a yacht makes me happy for the whole time when im building it then enjoying it...how is enlightenment any better??
please help clarify this point?


It's only fear we have to deal with.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:40 pm

DJW, hi. :-)

Congratulations on being "chosen" by awareness! It's an immeasurably wondrous gift; count yourself blessed, and use it well.

Experiences are impermanent. They begin, last a certain amount of time, then end. After an experience has ended, the human mind often uses its resources (thought, memory, imagination) to "hold onto" the experience and make it seem like it lasts a bit longer. But even that eventually ends. At which point, you're back to your default state, your everyday way of being. Which, for most (all?) of us, is not "enlightened" but rather in our particular ring of samsara (the rat race).

Knowledge is, on the other hand, different. Once you know something, deeply, with certainty, that knowledge persists. You don't have to work at re-knowing your name every day, or your address, or where you work, or that you are a human being of a certain age and gender, or that gravity "pulls" things downward, or that the sun rises every day, etc.

That's why knowledge is so important in the enlightenment game. It's abiding, unlike experience, which needs to be renewed, and renewed, and renewed ...
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:42 pm

( Interesting to compare my take and karmarider's. Vive la différence! :-) )
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Re: why become whole?

Postby runstrails » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:01 pm

Nicely stated, rachMiel. All states/experiences are ultimately temporary but self-knowledge is abiding. Also, not much changes (at least outwardly in samsara) after enlightenment (or whatever you want to call it). So don't expect any fireworks. Life goes on as before, but with the certain knowledge (and therefore, the perspective) of your true self.

BTW, welcome to the forum, DJW!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:31 pm

Nice responses folks & welcome from me too DJW

I have used the word whole...

in those moments where the door cracks open slightly- i have felt connected-love-joy-peace-care-and probably every other amazing awe-inspiring feeling.

so why bother with the work?



What work?


You know you are whole and the temporary experiences just 'are' opportunities to BE who you are... whole... if you choose and no one is going to choose for you. And no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience. This really just means that natural consequences of choices will unfold. You turn left you journey in one direction, you turn right you journey in another direction - you are still whole whether you turn left or right. You are still whole whether you choose love or fear, you are still whole whether you are in joy or in pain, you are still whole whether you are aware that you are whole or whether you are acting out of fear that you are not whole.

You could win that lottery, have that yacht and your choices would have different 'matter' but they'd still be the same choices - do you choose love and that knowledge that you are already whole,
or do you choose to experience degrees of uncomfortableness and suffering based on falsities and then in time realise again that you are whole.

Both of these journeys will still bring you back (eventually no matter how many turns you take) to realising that you are already whole.

The physical / material things and experiences don't disappear - our attachment to, discernment of and response to them changes in awareness/wholeness, or not however we choose in any and every moment.

So in a way, you're right - why 'bother' with the 'work'?

There is no 'becoming' whole. You already are whole, we just forget this sometimes and that has natural progressive experiences that bring us back to those moments of clarity when we ARE whole because we're not covering up our wholeness with attachments and judgements that distort our perception of who we really are.

What ET reminds us is about the states (choices) that create the distortions by natural progression -
- if we are treating a thing, person or situation as a) an enemy, b) an obstacle or c) a means to an end
to our being whole...
We are taking a journey of experience, that in the end can only bring us back to the realisation that we are already whole - because we are already whole!

If we are in states of acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm we are journeying WITH the knowledge that we are already whole.
It doesn't change the thing, person, or situation at all, it just changes our perception of it and our responses to it - it's a different journey, a different experience of the same thing.

The physical world, situations don't change, we just navigate them with a different level of awareness.
Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:36 pm

runstrails wrote:Nicely stated, rachMiel.

:-) Studying the Vedanta got me clued in to the importance of knowledge. But boy did I resist at first! ;-)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:48 pm

Studying the Vedanta got me clued in to the importance of knowledge. But boy did I resist at first!


That tickled me Rach :)

Acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm all rolled into one!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:50 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Studying the Vedanta got me clued in to the importance of knowledge. But boy did I resist at first!


That tickled me Rach :)

Acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm all rolled into one!

Yeah, all dis work -- studying, meditating, inquiring, pondering -- IT'S BREAKING *ME* DOWN I TELL YA! What's a poor ego to do ...? ;-)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:31 pm

KARMINDER-- I thanks you for giving me some words to put to what my intuitive side understood...it has been a great help-- I dont really seek. I have been lucky- I have been mostly fearless in life- with few exceptions--I expereinced some very difficult times - I have a word for these times- some ive heard call it the dark night fo the soul- others like me- i call the void. It was in that space that I understood the DIFFERENCE between life with fear and life without- I have never read any Eckhert Tolle, I apologize to all. Im just a guy who wants to not be confused- and sometimes spirituality is confusing to me. trusting my inner guidance is not an easy path for me. My ulitmate goal is not to get to the higher states- although they are welcome. but to help ease others suffering- so far im not a stellar example of perfection..but i like who i am and i can look in the mirror and not be ashamed. again thank you for the kind words and insights...All good medcine!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:41 pm

Rach- I hope im answering these correctly?..this is my first time on this forum and im not used to how to respond using the system here- i also want to apologize to those who have found my grammer less than stellar. Im doing the best wiith what i know. I also apologize to anyone who cannot read my writing properly or understand due to grammatical errors.

Again as with all answers on here I am the student in all of this...Im taking in everything that has been said--and your post has also helped to deconstruct my fears. I realize that I DO in fact remember this knowedge each time i get that door cracked a little- and shown, my "natural self"...thats the one thing I remember- For me, I realize that place in the moment or god or whatever state you want to call it- is always there- I just forget it sometimes..but yes my "truth" always remains - each time - when i have what I call my growth spurts, I remember the knowedge- The Clarity. I am grateful for it...You have reminded me that I can live in this world- with one foot init and one foot in the spiritual- thank you...all good medicine.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Hi SmileyJen...

Im growing fond of this site already. I enjoy the people who have responded to my posts.

Its funny how this knowledge has changed my world...
I can't remember the author but there was a line in a book i read as a teenager and the line said this: "The place seemed so different and yet -nothing had changed..." I probably didnt get the quote proper, but it went something like that...

anway-thanks for all the feedback ...I
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:04 pm

Karmarider-seems im full of apologies today- I got your name wrong- my mistake. thanks again for the answer...
what happened to finally let you release those projections? I'm curious.

Doug
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Re: why become whole?

Postby karmarider » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:08 am

DJW wrote:KARMINDER-- I thanks you for giving me some words to put to what my intuitive side understood...it has been a great help-- I dont really seek. I have been lucky- I have been mostly fearless in life- with few exceptions--I expereinced some very difficult times - I have a word for these times- some ive heard call it the dark night fo the soul- others like me- i call the void. It was in that space that I understood the DIFFERENCE between life with fear and life without- I have never read any Eckhert Tolle, I apologize to all. Im just a guy who wants to not be confused- and sometimes spirituality is confusing to me. trusting my inner guidance is not an easy path for me. My ulitmate goal is not to get to the higher states- although they are welcome. but to help ease others suffering- so far im not a stellar example of perfection..but i like who i am and i can look in the mirror and not be ashamed. again thank you for the kind words and insights...All good medcine!


Hi DJW,

I used the word "fear" but the fear itself is not a big deal. As you say, you don't even feel fear most of the time. It's not exactly fear--it is a context of mind. It is an off-centeredness. It is the delusion of feeling separate from our own lives. It makes people feel like life is treacherous, separate, something to defend, confusing. It gives the subtle hum of anxiety which most people can feel in them. It is the unexamined assumption that something is wrong, and this wrongess in a subtle way pervades all thoughts and beliefs and experience of life. It gives us the delusion that life and recovery must take effort and work and practice and knowledge and spriituality.

Yes, spirituality is confusing. I see the seduction of spirituality as a logical consequence of the off-centeredness; it is the attempt to escape this feeling that "something is wrong" through practices and knowledge and meditation and understanding and so on.

You're not feeling the fear and you're not caught up in the seduction of spirituality and you trust your inner guidance--I would say that you are doing very, very well. If what I say has made sense to you, I suggest you check out John Sherman.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:49 am

DJW wrote:I realize that I DO in fact remember this knowedge each time i get that door cracked a little- and shown, my "natural self"...thats the one thing I remember- For me, I realize that place in the moment or god or whatever state you want to call it- is always there- I just forget it sometimes..but yes my "truth" always remains - each time - when i have what I call my growth spurts, I remember the knowedge- The Clarity. I am grateful for it...

Nicely said. The Clarity ... I like that. :-)

You have reminded me that I can live in this world- with one foot init and one foot in the spiritual- thank you...all good medicine.

Why divide existence into the world and the spiritual? Are they mutually exclusive?
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