why become whole?

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:42 am

Jen it seems from your post that you can bypass that unpleasantness and pain of certain realities...? your then are blessed.

Without experiencing imbalance one wouldn't understand balance. Without dark one wouldn't understand light. Without pain one would not understand peace. These things are not 'outside' of your life and experience any more than the dischordant notes don't belong in a symphony - they are there for a purpose.

'Bypassing' them is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about playing them. Playing them with love - generosity and gratitude.

When I say understand I mean from actual experience, not projected fear outside of the reality of the actual experience.

If walking in a blizzard with no way to save yourself from the cold except for what you have and where you are if you argue against that reality you will suffer in your resistance to what is. This resistance may be because the reality is different to your expectation or that you are holding on to some past reality or projecting to some future moment.

Reality is what is real... now.
If you had the opportunity to 'bypass' it you wouldn't be there... yes?
If the reality is that you are there - you are there and you can choose - enemy, obstacle, means to an end - you can resist and not accept the reality - you can lament your woe and bemoan helplessness, blame yourself or others for you 'being' there, and others for not being there, you can say its hope less and sit in your hopelessness - or (and eventually most do when the resisting doesn't work and the pain threshold gets too high) you can choose acceptance of the reality, enjoyment, enthusiasm.

If you stand on the road waiting to be rescued when the reality is nobody is coming and even if they do come they won't see you - no choice is wrong - yes you will freeze! You will freeze through believing you are powerless in your own situation and environment, and you are not powerless, you only think you are and are choosing to believe that. You are always ENOUGH! You always have ENOUGH because you are love and love is abundance and eternal energy in motion.

In acceptance of what is, once you're over all the avoidng and resisting and making enemy, obstacle of the reality, you might notice you have bags and in those bags or even the bags themself may be able to be used to provide you shelter from the snow, and your immediate environment may also hold elements of shelter that you can use. You only have to make it to the morning and then you will see your situation in the light of day.

Do you know how to build a snow cave? A wind break? What do you have in those bags? Are there trees or a cave or rocks that can shelter you?

Show up!! BE there! Not some projection of reality IN the reality.

Absolutely the choices can be between a rock and a hard place - that guy with his arm caught under the rock in the canyon ...still had a choice neither of which was pretty, agreed. He could stay there and die, or he could cut his arm off and be free - no guarantees he might not still die, but his choices were only in responding to what is - in each moment - right here, right now.

These points of acute living - these are our opportunities to really show up - to BE and to disover who we truly are and what we are truly capable of. Most would tell you they have been pivotal points in their life's journey. It reminds me of the saying "Ships in harbours are safe, but that's not what ships are built for". Sure people can turn their life energy down, vegitate on drugs or in front of the tv and think that's a good 'life', but that's not what life is for - life is for experiencing the physical manifestation of energy in motion and that includes the disharmony and the harmony. A mighty oak tree has to push through its own seed covering and then dirt in order to grow - and everything that it needs to grow is right there in its seed and in its immediate environment.

Yes I've been in situations of freezing and it stings!!! Yes I've been rejected and it hurts, moving the expectations into line wth the reality takes adjustments. Yes I've been in car crashes and there are physical painful reminders, stuff the car.. it's molded metal. How we got there matters less than how we deal with the injuries and realities of the impacts in the moments and the aftermath, but it is helpful to reflect and learn from it.

Yes I've been unemployed amid 3 million unemployed and had ten pound to my name and relying on the generosity of others for shelter and food, and felt and at times still feel the fear of hopelessness in projection to moments other than this one. Yes I'm in a slightly similar position at the moment, yes it is scary sometimes. I'm not on any mountain top, I'm right in the thick of life and living, amid the effects of the global financial crisis and the heat wave and catastrophic natural effects of our abuse of mother nature, amid human made events and the chaos and the craziness of egos running rampant - I'm right here, amid all the insecurity and chaos. There have been times when I would love to go to the mountain top - the mountain keeps kicking me off it saying ... you won't find life here - get out there and live it!!

But when I turn to the moment in clarity there is only peace amid the chaos.

Yes I've lived a life of experiences some call 'extreme' in terms of pain. I didn't 'bypass' the pain, I went through it and became one with it. allowed it to be without blocking it or holding onto it or distorting it.

That's how we hone our being to know that all is well no matter the ACTUAL circumstances, we go through it we become one with it. Absolutely acknowledge the physical and emotional pain if it is real.

When something actually is a reality in this moment - be that freezing in the snow on a highway. If you expect it not to have a physical and/or emotional discomfort then you will be disappointed and will have to 'move' expectation and reality back into harmony. In doing so you realise that it does include physical/emotional discomfort. You can stand there arguing about it stinging and bemoaning how you got there, look for enemies - obstacles - or use it as a means to an end - (no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience).

or you can accept the reality and respond with gratitude and generosity to it.

As soon as we accept that it does sting we stop resisting and putting all our energies towards 'fighting' what is, and we start working with it. We don't 'bypass' the feelings of it stinging we respond in awareness to it stinging.
That was the motivation for mankind to light a fire!!!!

True necessity is the mother of creative invention and when we step up like this we are creation in motion without resistance - then we are all powerful, but the power is not 'ours', the power IS and we have stopped adding resistors to our interaction/flowing with it.

Your scenario reminded me -

.... It was the dead of the worst winter the country had seen in 100 years - minus 27.6C degrees. Living out on the moors, miles from anyone in an old cottage where the open fire backburning boiler heated the water and flowed it through the pipes. Absolutely wicked outside, blowing a blizzard. The temperature would go up and down but not more than -20 for weeks. The snow was 5 feet deep all around the cottage, pushed up against the windows, I knew it was 5 feet deep because it was as tall as me. We had one shovelled pathway from the gravel roadway to the front door. Whisky even froze in its bottle!

The fire had gone out hours ago. Long before the dawn, sound asleep in a snug bed I felt drips of freezing water in my ear, startling, stinging..drip......... drip........ drip. (very interesting expectation-reality divergence) Sleepily I stuck my finger in my ear and it really was wet, it wasn't a weird dream. I mused that it must be raining, logic started to awaken and wonder how it could be raining in the bedroom... in the dead of winter... amid all the snowing.

Wake UP!!

The pipes had burst and water was dripping through the ceiling - where electricity wiring also ran... the stopcock for the water was under the snow 'somewhere' around the perimeter of the cottage.

We had to turn the power off, we couldn't light the fire or the boiler would explode from the expansion in the freeze.
We had to find torches in the dark and find that stopcock in torchlight as the water started pouring heavier into the bedroom.
We had to don clothes enough to keep the cold out, but still be able to dig the five feet of snow from around the perimeter of the house.
The stopcock was not on the first wall... desperate, freezing and wet IN the reality, absolutely in the moment and accepting it is what it is and this is what we can do. Sure we could have left the house to flood... (actually I didn't even think of that at the time :lol: ).

We hit the corner and took a breath to survey that the next wall was even longer than the first - you know that moment when you're looking for something and you start off in one direction then all of a sudden you wonder if it might be just two inches from where you started in the other direction... that moment...

I burst out laughing. We are not 'in control' of anything. We are blindly, by torchlight if lucky, digging around the perimeter of ourselves trying to find our salvation. Whether it took one wall or all four walls to do that, all we could do was dig out the snow covering up the buried treasure .... we were on a treasure hunt!! The treasure in this case was a stopcock!! The holy grail of the great freeze!!

I had moved from acceptance to enjoyment and was working in enthusiasm to find that stopcock, but also absolutely joy was flowing through me because I let go of any notion that it was a burden - it just 'was' what it 'was' and I was responding in the best way I knew how to in that moment. That stopcock could have been a chest of Spanish gold and it wouldn't have been more precious! This was one of life's great adventures, grand opportunities - you couldn't pay for this sort of excitement, this sort of calling upon yourself to 'turn up' to BE.

Yes we had been 'forced' into it.
Yes the cold stung and the longer we worked the more frost bite was a real possible natural consequence.
Yes the cottage and our possessions were a wreck inside that took months to really clean up.

All that was required of me at that moment was standing with a five foot wall of snow in front of me and shovelling - no I didn't have time to make snowmen :wink:

I cannot tell you how many hours we dug, it was all just this moment, this moment, this moment.

We found the stopcock on the second wall, mid-way down it and felt great relief to tired arms and frozen limbs.
We went back into the cottage and would have loved to be able to light the fire, but couldn't or the boiler would have exploded.
We would have loved to have gone back to bed.. but it was wet.
We would have loved to have made a cup of tea... but couldn't without electricity or running water.
We would have loved to have had hot showers...

So we used cushions and pillows and made a bed on the floor in front of the not-fire, dried ourselves and changed our clothes and found whatever dry covers we could and fell asleep exhausted and smiling. It's all relative in physical reality.

We could have sat up and 'worried' about what would need to be done in the morning and for the weeks and months ahead, we didn't. We could do that in the morning and in the weeks and months ahead. We had done what we could and as crazy as it sounds, it was lovely. No matter what is happening the joy and peace of BEING is ....lovely.

I'm no guru ... in fact my mum and others would tell you gawd, don't follow her ... she's just a very naughty little girl!!! People call those who are walking a different path 'naughty' or 'wrong'... different in circumstances or in response to circumstances is just different - not right, not wrong, just different. From our response come our continuing experiences, these too are not right or wrong, just different.

The one thing that I've found that can stop me on a sixpence when I realise I'm travelling down a path I and I need/want to make a turn in the only thing I have control of - my attitude and response to reality - is to say "What would love do now".
For me it halts any fear - false emotions appearing real, it brings us back to presence, to reality - even if that reality is god-awful. It's the torchlight in the dark, it's the shovelling in the snow, its the laughing at the ludicrous and smiling at the ridiculous, knowing this too will pass and for this moment this is what IS, and that's okay too.

The guy with his arm stuck under the rock in the canyon. Eventually he accepted his reality and chose life - and in that love comes the truth and the power to do, to be, whatever is required of that moment - albeit cutting his arm off absolutely would have hurt like crap and is not something one would automatically choose. I can't begin to tell you the freedom he has gained in that acceptance and response to his extreme circumstance - he chose life, and he found love - generosity and gratitude.

I guarantee you - if you choose love, if you embrace life in any moment... you will truly understand generosity and gratitude as one.

Don't follow anyone - you came to walk your own path!

Now I'm going to be brutal and break your scenario down :wink:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:42 am

its -25C, your girlfreind - now ex gf, has had a wig out.

She decides that she no longer wants you to be in her life- and asks you to leave and because its her place- she is able to do this- maybe she is not as advanced on her journey etc and doesnt understand the consequences of her anger.

so all of a sudden in a heartbeat you are walking down the highway-bags in hand -its snowing like crazy- you are hungry-freezing- angry,havent slept in 3 days, hurt possibly, and there is no solution within the known framework.

So you are 10-15 miles from town. middle of nowehere, and no one is stopping because you cannot be seen at night.(this has happened to me)

are you saying its just a choice away?..because if so i have to respecfully disagree...at leats in my universe. for now(?)


It's - 25 = reality that you can respond to - either you rug up or you freeze No choice is wrong it will just bring a different experience.

your girlfriend - now ex gf, has had a wig out
= gf's response to life is not your business... you can only 'respond' - ego would resist, make enemy, obstacle, means to an end. Awareness would respond unconditionally loving towards self and other.

She decides that she no longer wants you to be in her life-
= her choice absolutely. The current form of this relationship no longer serves me.


and asks you to leave and because its her place- she is able to do this=
ego would make a battle of this either in enemy or in matyrdom, love would accept and negotiate respectful win-win options eg: how far do you need me to go immediately in order for you to feel safe?
... can I sleep in another room, in the hallway, somewhere safe for me but also not threatening to you for the night until it's safe for me to look for somewhere else?
Ego would storm out saying or thinking - Fine!!! If I die of the freezing cold out on the highway it will be all your fault!!! (guess what experience that will attract?)

maybe she is not as advanced on her journey etc and doesnt understand the consequences of her anger.
= Judgement Alert!!!
What if she does understand the consequences of her anger and doesn't give a rats? Process that into acceptance.

Like looking for the stopcock - we can be inches away and not know it and go the wrong way. There is no 'mountain top' that will hold you in stillness you will find it within and then it will kick you off again to delve deeper into your true nature. It is not our place to judge forward or backward of anyone's journey, even our own - that is ego making judgements outside of our actual ability to know or to accurately respond.

We do not walk in the shoes of any other but ourselves. Love knows this, is respectful of this.

so all of a sudden in a heartbeat you are walking down the highway-bags in hand -its snowing like crazy- you are hungry-freezing- angry, havent slept in 3 days, hurt possibly, and there is no solution within the known framework.

Interesting choices you made there :wink: This will be an interesting adventure.
Where have you been for the last three days that you haven't slept? In the moment or somewhere/time else?
Let's see what is yours and what is your environment
yours = angry - natural response to feeling out of control in your situation,
freezing - natural consequence of going out unprepared for the cold,
tired - again the natural consequences of your choices not to sleep,
what is 'hurt possibly' - Either it hurts or it doesn't - be honest with yourself first!

if it does hurt admit it, accept it and go through it honestly, being loving to you while moving expectations and reality into harmony.
If it doesn't hurt but you think it 'should' then maybe your ex-gf has done you an even bigger favour than you know - either way she's been your mountain and she's kicked you off into your new adventure :wink:
Honesty is the highest form of love - be honest with self and others.

There are no known solutions because you don't even know what the problem is - you're just angry and walking .. funny thing with blind anger and movement is we don't even know how we got where we are, we're disorientated with where we are.

Where are YOU?
Are you walking away from town - if so why? Does your ex-gf own the whole town? How far away is far enough? Is it just as far as your energy of anger will provide the fuel for walking? Okay, then here you are.

Or are you walking away from the familiar towards town and ran out of fuel? - if so why walk in the dark unknown towards the unknown - find a safe place to sleep sheltered from the cold. Basic human survival 101 is your immediate problem - not what you're going to do with the rest of your life - get back to reality of this moment!

This moment is likely not about enjoyment or enthusiasm - it's acceptance - in this moment this is my reality and this is what is required of me.

It's simple because it's simple, life only happens one moment at a time, we complicate it by trying to live multiple moments at a time. Those multiple moments will have a mess of chords all playing at the same time, mixing up past, present, future, yours, your ex-gf's, the ones before that that struck similar chords, the scary, unknown things that 'could' happen etc etc

- it sounds a mess, it feels a mess, it is a mess... in reality there are only individual notes playing together.

Which note you hone into is absolutely up to you. Angry note, judgemental note, fear note, acceptance note, love note - choose one and KNOW you are always choosing one whether you know it or not - if you are feeling anger then you have chosen to feel anger - if you are accepting and enjoying that keep choosing it.

If at a point you decide that has passed and now you're not enjoying it, let it go, choose another....
No while you're in the midst of enjoying your anger you will not even notice love or acceptance as a possibility, how can you, you're immersed in the experience of anger. It's 'this' note over here playing loud.... love is 'that' note over there that is silent and waiting for your attention, and acceptance is that other one over there... you have to 'shift' something to play them and then to hear them.

What you think you need in this moment is complicated, what you really need is basic - life 101 - shelter, warmth, sleep then food, - the other 'stuff' is irrelevant and a distraction to what is required in this moment. .... get with reality.


Oh, look at that nice snug cave over there.. .better check first if a bear's noticed it too :roll:

What would love do NOW?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:10 pm

[quote="smiileyjen101"][quote]its -25C, your girlfreind - now ex gf, has had a wig out.

= Judgement Alert!!!



***haha the Judgement alert = a judgement! :wink: ...
am i not allowed to judge my own experiences?

What would love do NOW? try to save my a__!

but its easy for one to talk about what to me sounds like "shoulds" when one is not
experiencing that particular experience.


love in that situation?
I dont know Jen--thats why i was asking-- Anger is a natural response - and therefore a natural "state" no different than "love" in fact its a loving thing to acknowledge those feelings and allow them.


You can do nothing but accept the situation. my statements on my now ex gf. was to try to communicate that I have no resentments or blame. not to judge. just to try to find a rational reason for her actions since they now have an effect, whether good or bad on my welfare. it's perfectly fine in wanting to understand a situation when there is no logical reason from my perspective.

what would love do right? not sure but- I can tell you what it wouldnt do- throw someone out in -25 deg weather with no money or anywhere to go 15 miles from town. risking my life in doing so--if thats a judgement or anger or ego, so be it!

let them be what they may I honestly dont care which place it would be coming from -- there are human ethics-
people do mean things to others- there is still evil in the world whether you are enlightened or not.
..

to be honest- sometimes i think this way of thinking- i,e the idea that one must always be seeking choice and the moment etc- denies the human experience rather than supports it. I think it almost like being judged for NOT being enlightened at a certain moment. Only masters can do this-

Its like saying i started to play guitar but why am i not playing the goldberg variations on it at the moment>?..

It feels almost like religion...

almost like shaming and guilting because of judgements or natural responses to a situation such as this- My whole point is- not to judge or blame but that its not easy to choose because there are barriers to that moment- because its human and appropriate and natural to just wish you were NOT in that "moment" in a crisis like that.
i agree-its acceptance--and thats all you can do - you cannot choose happiness in certain situations - only acceptance but the feelings are not going to be happiness...but they will be appropriate...

humans are not perfect nor will they ever be perfect - nor is the moment "perfect" all the time. since we cannot all live in that every second of every day 24/7...at least for me not yet...i know my limits and my limitations..and im ok with them. the bliss will come when I need it. to teach. i have only experienced those glimpses maybe 8 or 9 times in my life and no matter what i do to try to get it back permanently-- it always fades... this is the whole premis of this thread- why be enlightened? or whole?

just like winning a lottery --you are happy for a period- then - it fades away...

what would love do?...the best it can with what it has... :)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:33 pm

I can tell you one thing which is true. I'm the most peaceful person on earth when my tummy is full and happy. And I'm serious here. Hunger makes anyone cranky. Maybe the level of crankiness varies. Add -25C, homeless, and desperate, will make the experience a 100 times worse. I can only imagine that. I've never been there. But I have seen people who have been hungry a lot often, and yet has the grace still alive in them. Maybe if you are in that condition long enough, you adapt to it better. Like how most poor people still do. Doesn't mean that those poor people don't ever contemplate on 'Who they are", and their purpose in life. It's just that they are too busy looking forward to their next meal perhaps. I think those kind of conditions force you to be alert in the "Now" of the situation. They are more open to accepting any amount of food and meals that come their way graciously. They can appreciate "things" much better I suppose.

I have never been quite that desperate. But in the past one year, money has been tight, and I can tell you that I have started to appreciate things for what they are. Also, I have been successful to an extent in my attempts to "not live in the future". I truly take it one day at a time. We have no proper medical insurance. In the hay days I would have been terrified at the mere thought of it. But as I'm living in that dreaded situation currently, it doesn't seem so dreadful. Isn't that amazing. That's what fear does. To anticipate a dreadful situation and hold you hostage at that. But if you ever find yourself in that situation, it would probably not seem so dreadful after all!! Human conditioning!! Sometimes I laugh at it :lol:
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Re: why become whole?

Postby Mamaseeker » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:40 pm

And may I suggest you read Tara Brach's Radical Acceptance - the Heart of Buddha. It's a good book if you want to know what acceptance can do. It did nothing good to me because I can only "accept" so much. If life keeps throwing you a curve ball all the time, then acceptance is over-rated imo. I hate how life is apparently easy for so many, and how it is so fu**ing hard for so many others. All boils down to previous Karmas. I don't know what else you can blame on when you see a child born in the USA and is filled with material possessions, and there are so many in Africa dying each day from hunger. Bad Karma from previous life. That's all that makes sense to me.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:17 am


Jen said: its -25C, your girlfreind - now ex gf, has had a wig out.

= Judgement Alert!!!


***haha the Judgement alert = a judgement! ... am i not allowed to judge my own experiences?

A judgement alert is an acknowledgement in honesty, of an overstepping in the response ability of a situation, thing, or person.

The actual alert was not that she had a wig out as you've quoted here, it was your judging what that 'said' about her and her responses to the situation from her perspective -
DJ said: maybe she is not as advanced on her journey etc and doesnt understand the consequences of her anger.

Jen said = Judgement Alert!!!
What if she does understand the consequences of her anger and doesn't give a rats? Process that into acceptance.


In acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm there is no thing to 'forgive' - let go of resistance to, because everything is just flowing as it is.

If we choose or enact the energy of making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of things, people or situations then a 'rebalancing' will flow because we are out of balance with what is, our energy that we are applying to it is of resistance and so the 'what is' will apply equal opposite energy 'force'. Its physics, not philosopy :wink:

Eg: If I'd been making an enemy out of the wall of snow it would have been harder going mentally, physically and emotionally than it ACTUALLY was - by the degree of resistance to the reality. I could have stood at the door yelling that it 'shouldn't' be happening, blaming anyone and everyone and the weather... absolutely that choice was mine.

The water dripping would still be dripping, the 'unnecessary' mess and damage of it would be equal to the amount of flow while I wasted time arguing with the reality.

The 'actual' mess and damage was not within my ability to stop until we found the stopcock - there was nothing to forgive in it. If I wasted time arguing with it and made a bigger mess than was necessary it would require more 'cleaning up' as a direct and natural consequence of my choices. It's not spiritual, it's logical. :wink:

DJ said:
To be honest- sometimes i think this way of thinking- i,e the idea that one must always be seeking choice and the moment etc- denies the human experience rather than supports it. I think it almost like being judged for NOT being enlightened at a certain moment. Only masters can do this-


Shall I play the violins :lol:

If you are seeking then you are seeking - that's a different experience to being.
That assumes something is lost or hidden and its not.

It's right here, right now. You are right here, right now.
Look around you, feel inside you, hear all the sounds surrounding you, smell the air, feel your heart beat, become aware of your breathing.... THAT is being in this physical moment.

Being the human experience cannot deny the human experience, that is standing against it trying to keep it at a distance.
Neither can it support it, for that would mean standing under the experience holding it aloft rather than being in it.

Being IS the human experience.

Whatever that experience is - there is no 'right' or 'wrong' there just IS.

What is a 'master'? A concept one person has about another, a projection from here to there
- how can it even be real? We are all teachers and students simultaneously.

Jen said earlier: There is no 'becoming' whole. You already are whole, we just forget this sometimes and that has natural progressive experiences that bring us back to those moments of clarity when we ARE whole because we're not covering up our wholeness with attachments and judgements that distort our perception of who we really are.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:30 pm

Mamaseeker wrote:I can tell you one thing which is true. I'm the most peaceful person on earth when my tummy is full and happy. And I'm serious here. Hunger makes anyone cranky. Maybe the level of crankiness varies. Add -25C, homeless, and desperate, will make the experience a 100 times worse. I can only imagine that. I've never been there. But I have seen people who have been hungry a lot often, and yet has the grace still alive in them. Maybe if you are in that condition long enough, you adapt to it better. Like how most poor people still do. Doesn't mean that those poor people don't ever contemplate on 'Who they are", and their purpose in life. It's just that they are too busy looking forward to their next meal perhaps. I think those kind of conditions force you to be alert in the "Now" of the situation. They are more open to accepting any amount of food and meals that come their way graciously. They can appreciate "things" much better I suppose.

I have never been quite that desperate. But in the past one year, money has been tight, and I can tell you that I have started to appreciate things for what they are. Also, I have been successful to an extent in my attempts to "not live in the future". I truly take it one day at a time. We have no proper medical insurance. In the hay days I would have been terrified at the mere thought of it. But as I'm living in that dreaded situation currently, it doesn't seem so dreadful. Isn't that amazing. That's what fear does. To anticipate a dreadful situation and hold you hostage at that. But if you ever find yourself in that situation, it would probably not seem so dreadful after all!! Human conditioning!! Sometimes I laugh at it :lol:

Hi Mamaseeker- thanks for your post ill look that book up. Fortnately the scenario is fictitious. But there were condition which "could" have made it real...
I think thats what this boils down to- fear- as in any moment we choose fear or love- for me the issue is that sometimes even when i choose the love...there is some block. Thats the reality. I absolutely do not agree that the world is illusory- it is real..this Aint no dream...It is a mass of swirling electrons. yes the spaces in between those electrons are empty(to our knowledge) - but its what those vibratins create. a car then is just an illusion. but that illusion is very painful should you get hit by it- thats all that one needs to know as far as i am concerned- What Jen is saying -to me sound very Toaist- sorry i need to use a label here-- and if you want o call it a judgement so be it- but I love the toaist philosophy because it IS very real. life= a series of tradefoof balances and stalemate between dark and light.
so in my scenario although for me -unpleasant- and i agree- necessary - since to paraphrase Jen on this- "you cannot know that which is until you know that which isnt!". I also think there is nothing wrong with forward thinking.as long as you dont become too caught up in it like i did for a certain obsession i was having.
I really enjoy dreaming of what I want in liofe--and in that moment- of dreaming- I am happy...because thats choosing hope- my greatest teacher- said- "a man not living his dream- is living death"! very well spoken words..the third thing that I will say on what Jen said that is for me real " every man (woman) must walk in his or her own truth(very krishnamurti-ish). This is being authentic...
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Re: why become whole?

Postby Mamaseeker » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:16 pm

Ah, Bless his soul( Krishnamurthi)! My kid goes to a school based on Krishnamurthi's philosophy. One thing I learnt from that school was to Uncondition your child, and let the child blossom. You see, we adults are all so conditioned in our lives beginning in our childhoods. That is the KEY problem to all these psychological warfares we wage upon ourselves. Everything we believe as adults is caused by the conditioning we went through as children. Give your child the truth of Unconditional Love, and they will grow into less confused adults. The framework of our society doesn't always allow us to impart this lesson. Although we find time and time again that Love is the only answer out there. The illusions are not in the materials. They are created in greed, envy, pride of the human ego.

Coming to the point, I agree the world is not illusionary. The pain is real. Only your perception of it makes all the difference. Its all in the perspective eyes of the beholder. A dull rainy day may sound ugly, but there is still beauty in it. And to see that beauty you need the clarity of your inner-self. Just like trying to find if there is still some Love left somewhere hidden inside your ex-gf who had the heart to throw you out at -25C on a stormy winter night.( Albeit fictitious ex-gf)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:42 pm

If we choose or enact the energy of making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of things, people or situations then a 'rebalancing' will flow because we are out of balance with what is, our energy that we are applying to it is of resistance and so the 'what is' will apply equal opposite energy 'force'. Its physics, not philosopy :wink:

Shall I play the violins :lol:
:lol: is that assuming self-pity??...if so i say YESSSSSSS embrace the emotional kaliedoscope!


If you are seeking then you are seeking - that's a different experience to being.***** hmm but then seeking IS BEING!

by that logic, since there is no state that is not being. only awareness of being or unawareness of being, which you imply in seeking(? :? _
That assumes something is lost or hidden and its not.

***only if you assume it.


It's right here, right now. You are right here, right now. :) can i be anywhere else? truly?..its kinda like saying: " be yourself" hmm(scrtaching head) who else can i be?..Bill gates would be nice for a day or two...lol altho- he would be a few mil short in his absence..!


Look around you, feel inside you, hear all the sounds surrounding you, smell the air, feel your heart beat, become aware of your breathing.... THAT is being in this physical moment. ****yes I love those awarenesses too.

**** Its impossible to be aware 100% of the time...its not within human capability- try it...lol
see how long you can do it..get back to me. im curious. if you can-you are much more spiritually aware than I. :wink:

Being the human experience cannot deny the human experience, that is standing against it trying to keep it at a distance. ***do you mean resistance?


Being IS the human experience. ***agreed which is why seeking is no different than being. and vice versa...correct?

Whatever that experience is - there is no 'right' or 'wrong' there just IS. **** yayyyyyyy!..agreed...(can you tell im in humorous mood?)

What is a 'master'? A concept one person has about another, a projection from here to there***** um no i think a master is someone who CAN be aware 99.9% of the time...and stay in that moment 100% of the time all the while enjoying all the pitfalls too of this plane. I believe there are few..like 1 per 50 000 000.
If this is a projection- no sweat!..for me its truth.


- how can it even be real? We are all teachers and students simultaneously. **** true but only to a point. in mho. since we are all not jesus or buddha or stalking wolf who could work miracles and are on higher levels of consciousness and undertsanding...read- "Grandfather" by Tom Brown Jr.
when I can heal the sick, or manifest food for the starving - then I'd say im pretty near that level..untill then.well..im still a work in progress...
do you agree that a person whgo kills someone - is not living by way we talked about?..and if you agree that- then you must agree they have not learned certain truths or are not aware?, and if you agree with that then you can no doubt agree that they are not on the same stage of the journey as you and i( yes its a journey). hence we can conclude we are also not on the same levels as other are, and that it implies there are higher levels.

Jen said earlier: There is no 'becoming' whole. You already are whole, we just forget this sometimes and that has natural progressive experiences that bring us back to those moments of clarity when we ARE whole because we're not covering up our wholeness with attachments and judgements that distort our perception of who we really are.
[/quote]
yes Ma'aam!!!..thats in agreement with my reality.

Jen- I hear a lot of taoist thought in your words. I think that we, (Is there a you and I?) :mrgreen: understand the same things/thing- but each of us has our own way of paraphrasing it. Thus i see no "resistance " or "opposition" to what your saying.. i do also think though, again if i was completely honest:

for a little while -until the emotions passed- it would be completely human and "in the moment" to have feelings of resentment at the person in my example. I would never "force myself not to feel that if thats what was appropriate for ME. I would be aware of it..true. but never to to "out-choose" what my instincts are telling me.

I see it again as toaist here- we are all connected- hence- what we do to another we do to ourselves- which leads to - she did this to me but also to herself- and then - ahhhh i did this to myself!(grrrr)-

which then turn to responsibility and accountability, and "i must learn from this since this pattern keeps repeating" etc. hence- acceptance of the situation-

I dont know how you(anyone) would live in denial when winters bone is right in your face and your homeless..etc. or you are being held by terrorists and you are about to be castrated..you cannot help but be in that moment-

but truth is- I dont know how I would respond until we are in those situations. or rather what the experience would be like- but my fearful mind tells me-- not good! my happy mind says- hmm lets not go there, unless we have to.. :lol:

I totally agree- we are on the same page regarding balances. "you cannot know that which is- unless you know that which isnt". so being in a miserable place- is ok- at least for me...

because when you are in the "happy place" again- you appreciate it that much more:


on two seperate occasions, i have experienced aprox 96 hours without sleep- and believe me- this wasnt a choice i made consciously(and i doubt unconsciously either). It was the worst hell you can imagine, and trust me (that for my truth) when i say I never want to experience that again as long as i live(or for eternity) that I will stop at nothing- whether it be drugs/sleep aids etc or whatever is needed- to never go through that again! than its truth for me.

...but what i solidified in my knowledge during those trying times, besides the fact that i felt like I had arrived at hell, was that, had i NOT gone through that, i might not know the difference between utter fear, and pure love. another story for later on how i came to know that.
there are only two real emotions- fear and love...opposites on the same spectrum. yin and yang. good and evil, night and day. everything in the spiritual world seems to have an opposite. but they cancel each other out.
our bodies are in direct connection with our minds - yes the brain too but also the mind. or if you want to use semantics- our soul. here on the temp-or-al plane.
So my belief is that when we transition from this state to the next - we will lose certain physical issues(and likely gain other ones in whatever world comes next.

the bottom line is; what i have come to understand in my own universe and personal existance, is that its fine to venture out of the moment and be happy. as much as it is to venture into the moment and be happy. ENJOY eating the junk! enjoy dreaming of the sportscar- enjoy driving it!- enjoy swimming in waterfalls!- enjoy the attachments!, the greed, the jealousy, the anger!
embrace it!, but always the key is awareness. there is danger in embracing those things- but isnt that what you are trying to say?..

but you dont have to "like" the shite either! yes accept it- judge it! swear at it. put your fist through a wall. ,let out all that energy all out if need be.

do what you need to do- but accept(at least this is my truth) there are junk times too and thats alright. life goes on- there will be ups and downs, trials, successes, failures,pain, joy, fear, happiness. But once in while - at least for me-n the universe opens up and cracks the door and you experience the bliss for a period. The tirck for me is; its also ok, if you dont !...
because then - you just appreciate it much more...

btw- we enjoy electricity right?, and we know that electricty is made up of electrons. and we know that these electrons are both positive and negative. then if we understand electricity- we also know that for there to be that beautiful electricty - the positive cannot function without the negative. and vice versa. again there is that balance again. pure natural...so - being completely out of the moment- is as ok as choosing to be completely in the moment. and is actually beneficial.

when people say: you are losing it!..i say halleluyah! :lol:

quote: " ...sometimes Dan, you have to lose you mind, to come to your senses"
Socrates- way of the peaceful warrior
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:02 pm

Mamaseeker wrote: You see, we adults are all so conditioned in our lives beginning in our childhoods. That is the KEY problem to all these psychological warfares we wage upon ourselves. Everything we believe as adults is caused by the conditioning we went through as children. Give your child the truth of Unconditional Love, and they will grow into less confused adults. The framework of our society doesn't always allow us to impart this lesson. Although we find time and time again that Love is the only answer out there. The illusions are not in the materials. They are created in greed, envy, pride of the human ego.


Cool~!

I am in love with the teachings of a man named "Stalking wolf" now deceased for over 30 years.
- he teaches the physical world is very real. he was an apache and never had contact with the white man - until he taught a white man, the teachings. Of the hundreds of not thousands of books ive read, and spititual philosophy's i have delved into- His was the most complete and "real" for me-- since he teaches the "way of nature" Its all the same in different words but with some exceptions as each philosphy and path is unique, but for me when i needed a spiritual direction, it resonated in my heart like a beautiful chord. He taught that all great spiritual masters went into nature to learn- and this is so- if you read the bible- or the K'uran or stufy the buddha- you will notice that nature is where they all became enlightened permanently. (to use the spritual buzz words) . I.e. Jesus did a 40 day vision quest, Mohammed was on a mountain, Buddha in the wilderness under a tree. etc etc. the reason they all went to nature is- its IS our greatest teacher. so for me- even though i used a survival metaphor, the truth is, Nature is where we learnb the most- but he also said and this is a paraphrase: " once a man has gone into the wilderness , and reached a certain level, he must retrun to society, since there will be a point at which wilderness can teach him nothing more..."

Wow i dont have children(out of choice) but I certainly agree with you on that point! I do tell others-if asked- to embrace all of your humanity- if you are a killer- then embrace it(pls do not confuse this with meaning to go out and kill anyone- thats not "right action"), you cannot fight it- so better to embrace it.
if you are angry- embrace and love that anger then. if you are happy- and altruistic- embrace and love that too.
for me there is no seperation from what we term bad or good about our peronalities. Or bad to not "stay in the moment" I say embrace all that you are. love all that you are. even the ones not in the moment- be happy in the moment-and be happy not in the moment. either one is a perfect state...otherwise we would always just live in that one "state"


this is a article i found on the web..i liked what was said...

..."But more importantly, I'm encouraging you to see that this particular type of experience (living with love in the moment)is just one type of experience that the awakened self can experience. It is not THE ONLY type of awakened experience, and as you integrate and embody this love that you are, the experience of living from awakened awareness shifts."

.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:26 pm

Jen said: Shall I play the violins :lol:
DJW said: is that assuming self-pity??...if so i say YESSSSSSS embrace the emotional kaliedoscope!

It wasn't assuming, it was 'checking', and yes in the full spectrum of drama and emotion if it is self pity let's add the soundtrack, let's make a right meal of it!!! recognise it, honour it, experience it.

In awareness of any emotion on the emotional kaliedoscope in recognition of the resonance/frequency of the energy in motion (feeling energy in motion = e-motion) becoming aware of it in its purety, and embracing it is becoming one with what is. Absolutely honour the energy of it in that moment it is what is is and there is balance and purity in the experience of it.

- beyond or outside of the 'actual' flow of it
either when we are projecting into the future, or to the past, or to somebody else's experience of it is to parade our 'story' of it around as if it's real, and it's not, it is a masquerade, it's lost its pure moment spirit. In the pure moment it absolutely has something to share with us.

What ET tends to teach us is ego/unawareness is the filtering, the avoidance, the arguing with what is, the overlaying what is with judgements and making enemy, obstacle, means to an end, parading the stories around not in awareness and not authentically. It does this in fear of actually experiencing that which is okay in the moment. And as you both realise the 'thought of - fear of or judgement of...' is a distortion of the actual experience. As I said before in projections what is missing is us, so it's usless, spiritless.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:59 pm

Jen said: Being the human experience cannot deny the human experience, that is standing against it trying to keep it at a distance.

DJ said: ***do you mean resistance?


Jen said: Being IS the human experience.

DJ said: ***agreed which is why seeking is no different than being. and vice versa...correct?


To the first, yes I mean resistance - our energy is applying resistant force - no choice is wrong.. yada yada.

To the second, the energy flow in / out is of seeking or being is 'different' - not right or wrong, just different.

The application of energy will follow its own path, meet its own level, therefore the 'seeking' something has one calibre of energy flow generating response and therefore result, and being is a different calibre energy flow generating response and therefore result.

Let me try and explain this... if one is 'seeking' one has entered the premise that 'what' one is seeking is not 'here'.

In physical terms - like the stop cock if it truly is not here, is somewhere else or is truly hidden (like under the snow) that's one thing. Absolutely the energy in seeking is the only way one will achieve the result of finding it. Authentic energy flow in finding it is clear, enjoyable (relative, shite freezing cold and hard work, but still enjoyable). Every muscle moving in harmony blessed & appreciated, the tools - the shovel blessed & appreciated, lifting this shovel load... nope not under there (reality acceptance), this shovel load, nope not under there, the recognition and acceptance that it could be anywhere, even back where we started and in the other direction - eventually this shovel load YES!!! Eureka!!!

The being isn't anywhere else but here. Yes whether you are seeking something or railing against something or whatever being is still there.

In terms of spirit though there is nothing to go looking for that isn't already here - the eternal who we really are - peace, love, joy - that doesn't go anywhere, we only make up stories that it does and to the degree that we believe the stories we create a quest to find it. It is always here and now.
If we go off 'looking for it' as if it is lost, as if it is buried or as if it is on some mountain, then we need to maintain the stories of the loss of it. We will reach the 'place' and still not find it if our story is that it is too hard to find, elusive or that we need to be a particular thing or way in order to find it (being a 'master' or a 'guru' with all the expectations of what that means etc etc)

If we create the story as if it is in some holy grail that will save us from our 'whatever', we're off on a goose-chase looking for something that looks and feels whatever it is that we believe will 'make us' whole, peaceful whatever.

It's the glasses on our head that we search high and low for. It's the fame or fortune or material thing or particular situation that we think will endow this peace on us - sometime other than now, somewhere other than now, in some way other than now.

In a way we're saying the same thing - and then you put the knockers on it... putting it out of your reach...
when I can heal the sick, or manifest food for the starving - then I'd say im pretty near that level..untill then.well..im still a work in progress...

We're all journeying and we will all continually learn from our experiences.

'Religions' put some 'above' others, and yet we are all one. Some religions say you will be 'whole' ...when... you do this, believe that, say this blah blah blah, you were born whole and as long as you're breathing you still have spirit flowing within you sustaining your expression of it in this world.

tough love alert :!:


With awareness, willingness within your ability to respond you absolutely can heal the sick to the best of your ability and feed the hungry to the best of your ability from whatever resources are at your disposal - Jesus shared what was already there - he didn't conjure up the fish and the bread - he took what was available and just divided it differently to how it was going to be divided. In our world there is more than enough food for everyone - we just don't share it equally. We abdicate our response ability - our ability to respond.

We do this the same as individuals, we pretend that someone else is more capable, more loving, more resourceful, more... ppppfffftt!!


It's not awareness that is the difference, it's willingness.
It's that feeling in the pit of your gut that says you could - if you choose, let love flow through and out of you as a willing instrument of being - the breath of life that flows through you is the very same breath of life that flows through everyone. It is the eternal spirit.

and then your brain says ... aaarrrgggghhhhh really? No, it can't be, it can't really mean 'me', that I am one with Jesus, Buddha, Gandi, my fictional ex-gf, the murderer over there and the homeless alcoholic and Hitler and the Son of Sam and Mother Theresa and my father and mother and brother and sister etc etc etc.... Surely I'm separate, surely I'm different, surely I'm not worthy, surely, surely, surely....

And the ego makes up all the stories in the world why you 'shouldn't', and why you can't - can't is not usually really can not, it's choose not to, but we pretend it's outside of our response ability because it makes us feel 'safer' as an individual. We project it 'over there' and then we pretend it's hidden or buried and gee whiz, if only I could 'find' it, I'd be able to respond.

Have you seen the movie Liar Liar? - the next time you think or express 'can't' be liar liar authentically honest with yourself... it will likely shock you!! Just for fun make a 'can't' statement and then scream at yourself REALLY??? Is that true??

(and then you'll feel like you need to pee your pants when you know the truth - that's the 'niggle' of physical and spirit meeting and needing to be expressed. :wink: )

Let's take the 'feed the hungry' notion - look in your cupboard - what could you really share differently? Look at your feet what is really stopping you walking down the street to the nearest shelter or homeless hangout and offering food to the hungry? Or, the next time you pass someone who is cold and hungry - what stops you from inviting them home for a warm meal? I'm not saying you have to - I'm saying you could if you chose to. Each one of the fears that stop you are opportunities.

Let's take the 'heal the sick' notion - look at your hands - who would benefit from the touch of them or the offering of them to share a task or a burden? Tug on your ears, who would be healed for the comfort of a warm and willing pair of ears? Run your fingers around your mouth - who would be soothed by the sounds of a loving, caring word?

You are confusing your ability with your willingness. Yes, excuses are a projection and no choice is wrong... you can hide your light under the bushel of excuses, or you can be honest about what it is you are choosing.

Honesty is the highest form of love - love thyself first, for you are one with all creation.

(eegads that sounds like a sermon!!! sorry :lol: )

there are only two real emotions- fear and love...opposites on the same spectrum. yin and yang. good and evil, night and day. everything in the spiritual world seems to have an opposite. but they cancel each other out.

I've come to know this 'cancelling out' as equilibrium - and yet it doesn't cancel out, it embraces, if that makes sense.
Equilibrium - the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced, in a wide variety of contexts

every 'factor' of a thing both melts into one and maintains its 'separateness' feeding into itself by degrees.


I first 'got' it hearing Don Miguel Ruiz saying 'love is the equilibrium of gratitude and generosity'. When I absorbed this it was Yum beyond Yum. It goes beyond 'balance' by its parts, if that makes sense.

I love Dan Millman's work too there's a discussion of his work 'The Life you were born to live' in this thread viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9381
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:29 pm

Jen- I just lost a long one to you-grrrrrrr :x - computer is acting up- so im going to enter into my happy place or risk smashing this computer into quarks...
ill get back to you tomorrow i'm done for the day- :)

all good medicine
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:52 pm

Ah, I know 'that' feeling.

If you're doing a post that takes a little time, sometimes the program either loses it or locks you out and you have to log in again and when you've done that, what you've typed is not there.

Before I press the Submit button I copy what I've already typed . .. just in case.
Then at least I have it on my clip board and can just paste it into the box again.
Or, you can Save draft and then repost it from the draft folder, although I found that the longer way round.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:31 pm

Hi Jen- yea, Its my comp. Ive been having issues with it since it had the hard drive re-installed. Crashed a couple months back and the crashed again. both times i didnt learn from my mistake of not saving a backup, to save my files and both times i lost all my files..but no biggie..

In this case i was reponding to all your last email, then it just highlighted all the text and before i knew what happened a popup appeared saying "do i want to close this webpage" and somehow it didnt give me the time to hit cancel..ugh. no matter. everything happens for a reason anyway.

I think for now though- ive learned and absorbed what i needed. and appreciate all the input from everyone here. Ill check the forums from time to time. see if anything tweaks my curiosity, but all in all- "im good".

All good medicine
meegwetch! :!:
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