why become whole?

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:45 pm

Why divide existence into the world and the spiritual? Are they mutually exclusive?[/quote]

Hmmm-- because for my reality, and i am honestly not trying to be confusing, They both exist. Seperate yet not seperate. One of my favorite teachers, was a man named stalking wolf. (although now passed on)He is legendary in certain circles, and although I have now found my own path, and walk my own truth,(since each person must walk thier own truth) he did teach me that a person who reaches a certain stage must learn to "walk " with one foot in the spiritual realm and one in the world of man"...if that makes any sense? :)

One other thing- I found a word that really describes what I am experiencing this moment. and that is "Pure" so for me- instead of a "natural" state which is also correct- I will refer to it as my "pure" or maybe "authentic" state since i think its more concise. but thats just me...


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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:46 pm

runstrails wrote:
BTW, welcome to the forum, DJW!

If i havent done so - Thanks Runstrails!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:58 pm

karmarider wrote:
DJW wrote:KARMINDER-- I thanks you for giving me some words to put to what my intuitive side understood...it has been a great help-- I dont really seek. I have been lucky- I have been mostly fearless in life- with few exceptions--I expereinced some very difficult times - I have a word for these times- some ive heard call it the dark night fo the soul- others like me- i call the void. It was in that space that I understood the DIFFERENCE between life with fear and life without- I have never read any Eckhert Tolle, I apologize to all. Im just a guy who wants to not be confused- and sometimes spirituality is confusing to me. trusting my inner guidance is not an easy path for me. My ulitmate goal is not to get to the higher states- although they are welcome. but to help ease others suffering- so far im not a stellar example of perfection..but i like who i am and i can look in the mirror and not be ashamed. again thank you for the kind words and insights...All good medcine!


Hi DJW,

I used the word "fear" but the fear itself is not a big deal. As you say, you don't even feel fear most of the time. It's not exactly fear--it is a context of mind. It is an off-centeredness. It is the delusion of feeling separate from our own lives. It makes people feel like life is treacherous, separate, something to defend, confusing. It gives the subtle hum of anxiety which most people can feel in them. It is the unexamined assumption that something is wrong, and this wrongess in a subtle way pervades all thoughts and beliefs and experience of life. It gives us the delusion that life and recovery must take effort and work and practice and knowledge and spriituality.

Yes, spirituality is confusing. I see the seduction of spirituality as a logical consequence of the off-centeredness; it is the attempt to escape this feeling that "something is wrong" through practices and knowledge and meditation and understanding and so on.

You're not feeling the fear and you're not caught up in the seduction of spirituality and you trust your inner guidance--I would say that you are doing very, very well. If what I say has made sense to you, I suggest you check out John Sherman.


Karmarider- I find you to be very articulate. I like your wording and the precision in the words. Its nice because I find it hard to put these ideas and experiences into words.
so I tip my hat to you... :wink:

Thanks also- I am 45 and have a lifetime of awareness that has helped guide me,along with great teachers- maybe someday I can recount my story to anyone interested in my journey.

Btw- my ego loves the credit, but truthfully Im not into it for any recognition of how well im doing- I just "am" I have been fortunate. Thats all.

but i have one question for you:

Does it help or hinder us (or niether?)to have forward looking dreams and goals?
something to dream about and then experience in the moment?..for instance I can be happy right now. thats my choice. But what if my goal was to say visit some exotic place or build an ultralight to expereince the Joy of flight?- thats something that happens down the road- making it not of the "moment"? and perhaps a distraction? But If my motivations are purely for myself and the enjoyment of those "things" Does that make it incorrect and "off-centered"?(as you refer to it as...)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:01 pm

DJW wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Why divide existence into the world and the spiritual? Are they mutually exclusive?

Hmmm-- because for my reality, and i am honestly not trying to be confusing, They both exist. Seperate yet not seperate.

So you're a dualistic non-dualist? ;-)

( The labels don't matter. I'm just having a bit of fun, that's all. )
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:23 pm

DJW said: I'm growing fond of this site already. I enjoy the people who have responded to my posts.

Its funny how this knowledge has changed my world...
I can't remember the author but there was a line in a book i read as a teenager and the line said this: "The place seemed so different and yet -nothing had changed..." I probably didnt get the quote proper, but it went something like that...


There is much to enjoy here DJW, happy that you sense that.
Ah :idea: 'perception' - awareness is the inconsistent amid the consistent, I like your quote DJ

The 'work' if anything at all is that some seek to share their experiences of how their awareness and perceptions of life changed, because it's outside of the day to day, the scientifically test tubed dissected - because it is personal perceptions, personal experiences, people tell their stories, then some call them spiritual :wink: Others might call them insane :?

The awareness that we have as innocent children, the innocence and joy and curiousity and non-judgementmental perspective is what some see as work in order to get back to remembering. It's normal as in common, but not natural as in that we have covered up our own beauty and our knowledge of the beauty of everything and everyone including ourselves, with layers of judgemental perspectives along our adventure of life.

For an innocent child - mud is just wet dirt and it is FUN!!! gooey, great!! feels wonderful, makes us laugh with its squishiness....
and then someone (judgementally making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of the 'mud') says 'Look at you, you're dirty!!! Get in that house and clean up that mess' and sadly other 'labelling' occurs amid child being a child that is not about acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm of what is.

A child falls over, they cry - sometimes they might be comforted, othertimes they'll cry until something else takes their attention and then their pain or fright or disappointment that they experienced and expressed disappears back into the ether. If we tell them 'don't cry'... or that their pain is not 'worth' crying over, or that their crying worries us... or any of the other distortions of our natural emotions they start to learn to bury their feelings because we are inhibiting them from expressing their feelings - feelings are never wrong - expressing them is a personal choice, and many take the personal choices of others and overstep their own boundaries and say don't express your feeling this way and the child gets confused ... they start to believe they must act in accordance with the wishes of others in order to receive love.

They forget they already ARE love, because love opens and whatever that other person is projecting doesn't look open, it looks scared

...and they start to hide their feelings, make enemies of their feelings, and distort their responses to their feelings in order to please others and 'get' love from others and to give the 'sort' of love (safety) another seems to want.

You don't 'get' love from others. We are love.

Many hide their love away and eventually even forget that they are love.

The 'work' then becomes about remembering - that's what the little door crack opening moments of light are - the realisation all over again that this, that, you, me everything is love, is perfect, is beautiful just as it is. We already are whole.


The perceptions and relating of them are a blur of our individualism in form, love has no boundaries - true love, and learning what that is amid the distortions of trying to 'find' it instead of being it, might require some 'unwork'. :wink:
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:43 pm

I hope you don't mind me responding to this question - we will all likely have different answers...
Does it help or hinder us (or niether?)to have forward looking dreams and goals?
something to dream about and then experience in the moment?..for instance I can be happy right now. thats my choice. But what if my goal was to say visit some exotic place or build an ultralight to expereince the Joy of flight?- thats something that happens down the road- making it not of the "moment"? and perhaps a distraction? But If my motivations are purely for myself and the enjoyment of those "things" Does that make it incorrect and "off-centered"?


You mention you haven't read Tolle's work - the part of his sharings that I LOVE the most is about unconscious and conscious being and doing that he speaks of towards the end of A New Earth.

That notion of the state of unconscious doing being in making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end out of what is right now; and that conscious doing is being in either a state of acceptance - for this moment this is what is required of me and I am willing to accept that; enjoyment - letting the joy that you are flow out of you into this moment; or enthusiasm - having a goal and flying towards it still being conscious, still accepting the things that are not of your desiring and still letting joy flow into what it is you are doing right now while you are flying like an arrow in the direction of the 'target'.

Our perception of the 'target' can also be conscious or unconscious - eg if you build the ultralight and enjoy the building - put joy into every step of it, accept the bits that break and the things that don't meet your expectations instantly, and then accept the days you cannot fly safely or enjoyably through circumstances outside of your control, and fly free YAY!!!

If however one want to say build an ultralight because the ex-wife's new guy has one and it would 'prove' you were just as good... or any other projection of unconsciousness and 'means to an end'; or make enemy of the weather on the days you could not fly; etc etc ... two totally different experiences - neither right or wrong, just different experiences.

Of course we project into a future that is not here yet - some use this to 'delay' being happy, being love, being joy... I'll be happy when..... I'll be happy if.... the difference is there is an attachment to it - and not one moment before!!!

ppffftt!!! okay, no choice is wrong.... :wink:
That can be a whole lifetime of moments of unhappiness imposed only by ourselves.

By all means, in love in joy, in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm dream your dreams, plant the seeds of your flowers and fruits - do so consciously, do so joyfully - that's where great achievement, great lives flow out of us and into the world.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:37 am

rachMiel wrote:
DJW wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Why divide existence into the world and the spiritual? Are they mutually exclusive?

Hmmm-- because for my reality, and i am honestly not trying to be confusing, They both exist. Seperate yet not seperate.

So you're a dualistic non-dualist? ;-)

( The labels don't matter. I'm just having a bit of fun, that's all. )

:D that IS funny!!

and what would life be without humour!..

sure! they cancelleach other out making me a guy with some far out notions...
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:01 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
DJW said: I'm growing fond of this site already. I enjoy the people who have responded to my posts.

Its funny how this knowledge has changed my world...
I can't remember the author but there was a line in a book i read as a teenager and the line said this: "The place seemed so different and yet -nothing had changed..." I probably didnt get the quote proper, but it went something like that...


There is much to enjoy here DJW, happy that you sense that. :wink:

SmileyJen--thats was very well summed up..and well put..thanks I enjoyed reading that... :)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:13 pm

Sorry i think I double posted...
Last edited by DJW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:20 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:I hope you don't mind me responding to this question - we will all likely have different answers...
Does it help or hinder us (or niether?)to have forward looking dreams and goals?
something to dream about and then experience in the moment?..for instance I can be happy right now. thats my choice. But what if my goal was to say visit some exotic place or build an ultralight to expereince the Joy of flight?- thats something that happens down the road- making it not of the "moment"? and perhaps a distraction? But If my motivations are purely for myself and the enjoyment of those "things" Does that make it incorrect and "off-centered"?


You mention you haven't read Tolle's work - the part of his sharings that I LOVE the most is about unconscious and conscious being and doing that he speaks of towards the end of A New Earth.

That notion of the state of unconscious doing being in making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end out of what is right now; and that conscious doing is being in either a state of acceptance - for this moment this is what is required of me and I am willing to accept that; enjoyment - letting the joy that you are flow out of you into this moment; or enthusiasm - having a goal and flying towards it still being conscious, still accepting the things that are not of your desiring and still letting joy flow into what it is you are doing right now while you are flying like an arrow in the direction of the 'target'.

Our perception of the 'target' can also be conscious or unconscious - eg if you build the ultralight and enjoy the building - put joy into every step of it, accept the bits that break and the things that don't meet your expectations instantly, and then accept the days you cannot fly safely or enjoyably through circumstances outside of your control, and fly free YAY!!!

If however one want to say build an ultralight because the ex-wife's new guy has one and it would 'prove' you were just as good... or any other projection of unconsciousness and 'means to an end'; or make enemy of the weather on the days you could not fly; etc etc ... two totally different experiences - neither right or wrong, just different experiences.

Of course we project into a future that is not here yet - some use this to 'delay' being happy, being love, being joy... I'll be happy when..... I'll be happy if.... the difference is there is an attachment to it - and not one moment before!!!

ppffftt!!! okay, no choice is wrong.... :wink:
That can be a whole lifetime of moments of unhappiness imposed only by ourselves.

By all means, in love in joy, in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm dream your dreams, plant the seeds of your flowers and fruits - do so consciously, do so joyfully - that's where great achievement, great lives flow out of us and into the world.

Jen- thanks again- what i seem to be getting from this forum other than ,lots of love, is affirming things I thought were correct but needed to bounce off others who are as nuts as me!...(kidding). i suppose to the "real" world we are nuts.. but then again -i like my insanity better than the real worlds sanity..sooo..
I feel that I have consciously chosen what I want- not because i need to for the sake of ego, but for ME

- a little story about how i learned this imortant lesson: I grew up with music and learned to play at 12. i started with trombone and then switched to guitar.
my real love was trumpet -but later found i didnt have the correct physical attributes to play the way i envisioned...

anyway- when i picked up the guitar- i did it mostly because, of one day (ive never told anyone this..) when I saw two girls on the bus, ogle a guy with a guitar. I was frustrated cuz I thought i wasnt cute enough or good enough- and it hit my self esteem hard.

This was the time of -my life when i wanted attention from girls; sex =attention = happiness, since at that age--the hormones were kicking in and of course wanted to spread my seed...

so I picked up the guitar and it was quite unconscious at the time of what my real reasons for playing were. But i had natural talent and became very successful as a player. I did not ever gain noteriety- because i suffered from terrible stage fright. However I did meet a lot of women, and, for all the wrong reasons..at 30 when i had reached my peak of ability and could play anything in my own personal style- i stopped. just like that. i had burnt out and i didnt love it anymore- i had lost my passion and didnt care if i ever got it back- what the lesson i learned was- i wasnt doing this job(i was a pro) for me- i did it for ego! to get that pat on the head and be told what beautiful music I played. It was what i was good at. What i excelled at- And of course the girls.

Today as always, I appreciate music - but I rarely play just because i enjoy it- I really dont. I enjoy listening more. so there you have it..I understand what people are saying. Thats what i like- to see, that others are on my level(or me on thiers?) and share the same ideas and understandings as i do..
thanks again!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:34 am

Jen- thanks again- what i seem to be getting from this forum other than ,lots of love, is affirming things I thought were correct but needed to bounce off others who are as nuts as me!...(kidding). i suppose to the "real" world we are nuts.. but then again -i like my insanity better than the real worlds sanity..sooo..
I feel that I have consciously chosen what I want- not because i need to for the sake of ego, but for ME


Of course like energy finds like energy and life will affirm what is correct
.. and hmmm I like 'nuts' - blessed are the cracked, for they let the light in!!

I love your story, thank you for sharing it and particularly for your open, authentic honesty. That is the environment, for the most part, that the mods set up and maintain here - we are safe to BE, to explore and to share. Sure some folks get their knickers in a knot for a while at times on some issues, more often than not it untangles itself in sharing.


I grew up with music and learned to play at 12. i started with trombone and then switched to guitar.
my real love was trumpet -but later found i didnt have the correct physical attributes to play the way i envisioned...

I well know that 'disappointment' at about 15 I fell head over heels for the guitar sounds of Peter Frampton and the Eagles and Lee Ritenour and others, and bought a guitar with one of my first wages. I bought the books of Frampton and the Eagles and delightedly took it all home, sat on the floor, put Frampton Comes Alive record on the player - hands and fingers poised as I'd watched countless guitarists do and waited for the music to flow.... nothing.... :cry:

Then a few weird clangy sounds, then irritated fingers.... and the music didn't flow out of me - it had me stumped. I read a little of the book, did it again, still nope.. that's not 'it'. I figured I was being hard on myself... Frampton might be a bit tricky for a beginner, so I put the Eagles One of these nights on, figuring it might be easier... :wink: :lol:

nothing... same mess.. the noise I was making sounded nothing like the record!!! I clearly remember looking at the guitar, and at my fingers and wondering why aren't they getting it together? :roll:

You see, I've always had a voice that music flows through and out of me in perfect pitch and wide scale, to my ear music is life, music is everything vibrating and I dance to the rythmn of it, sway with it, crescendo with it, let it flow, let it soothe me, dance me, sway me, break my heart and build me back up again :D

It takes no effort producing music with my voice and I grew up doing so and being encouraged to do so, seeing and feeling the music in life, seeing life flow through people and nature in harmony and by chords combining. I also grew up knowing a lot of musos, and when watching them, their music playing was as effortless as my singing. I didn't really 'do' anything and I figured they didn't either :roll:

For me music (& life) is all about this amazing experience of letting go and BEING the music, playing in the range of the music, let it flow through us in tension and release... and so it is with life too. There's a quote that says "I am the hole in the flute through which the Christ breath flows, listen to the music". That kind of thing, the 'actual' music flowing in my ears and through my mouth almost has nothing to do with 'me', anymore than the music of the ocean has anything to do with individual waves, or the music of the wind has anything to do with individual leaves on trees that dance and interact with it, or the love that flows through us, or the experiences of life, except in combinations - if that makes sense.

Holding that guitar in my hands I was waiting for my fingers to 'do' what they knew :wink: I know that sounds really niave... I guess I was/am. I still experience music and life that way, although I did learn to play guitar a little.. I'm no Frampton though :D

I learned about 'means to an end' stuff from the other end - having it projected onto me and having to learn what the heck it was, in life and in the music industry. My ex manager still has no idea that my music, professional or impromtu, as performer or appreciator were about the music 'being', because for him it wasn't, the music was a means to an end. Mind you I had the same 'blindness' for a long time because I couldn't comprehend means to an end thinking/being, I was as blind as he was, just from a different direction.

People project their own filters / understanding perspectives onto others. Knowing whether they fit, whether they are real or not, that takes getting out of your own way too some times - there are some musos where it is all about the music. I did know some musos who did do it for the attention.

I don't know, because I didn't ask - if I ever knew one who didn't also feel the love when they let themselves go, when they disappeared into the music. Did you? And again life is the same, we often don't remember the pure moments because we disappear into them.

I still sing, but not to satisfy any one else's means to an end for those who want to distort it. Interestingly, I hide that away from those who would, isn't that strange.

In a way DJ... burning out in the music industry (and life) and learning through the experiences can happen whichever end of the candle you light. Darkness to light, light to darkness, both are the same.

Life is the candle both burning and burned. The light and the heat, the dancing flame are the same as the tiny wisps of smoke still wafting through the air, the same as the sigh, the sleep, the peace in the darkness having seen the light.

Music to silence, silence to music, ego to awareness, awareness to ego, love to fear, fear to love, oneness to individuality, individuality to oneness, its all the same within the wholeness :)
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:50 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
And again life is the same, we often don't remember the pure moments because we disappear into them.

I still sing, but not to satisfy any one else's means to an end for those who want to distort it. Interestingly, I hide that away from those who would, isn't that strange.

In a way DJ... burning out in the music industry (and life) and learning through the experiences can happen whichever end of the candle you light. Darkness to light, light to darkness, both are the same.

Life is the candle both burning and burned. The light and the heat, the dancing flame are the same as the tiny wisps of smoke still wafting through the air, the same as the sigh, the sleep, the peace in the darkness having seen the light.

Music to silence, silence to music, ego to awareness, awareness to ego, love to fear, fear to love, oneness to individuality, individuality to oneness, its all the same within the wholeness :)

Good Morning Jen- spoken like a true artist!...


I don't know, because I didn't ask - if I ever knew one who didn't also feel the love when they let themselves go, when they disappeared into the music. Did you?

not sure if that was a rhetorical question-but ill answer it anyway. I dont remember feeling that love- not in the same way you describe. and not how those glimpses feel like.

What i do remember feeling was a great sense of accomplishment when i would complete a set of Bach. Or when i played a difficult peace easily..thats what kept me motivated.
my whole identity was based on what i did. Not on what i was. I was never really motivated by money and i guess thats a liability in todays world. in fact right at this moment- there are -in all practicality - no guarantees that i wont be homeless next month- things are shakey where i live and this is a very practical matter.
actually i know thats straying a little of topic- but when life gets in our face- the realites hit home,when in a predicament or illness etc..what do we do? how can we still be? in that moment- er..what i mean is- how can we center ourselves when there is a crisis?..i find in those times my spirituality seems to go right down the drain.


then of course the downward spiral starts...

the questioning: was what i experienced authentic? -why cant i stay in the moment in these times? whats wrong with me?..and why cant i just not worry and be happy since my brain knows that all is well?...but the feelings sure dont want to co-operate and make life this warm sunny beautiful place when something like a crisis such as homelessness in the dead of winter comes knocking on your door...
Im actually very curious to know how others on here deal with practical concerns in a spiritual way?- in honesty i cant say that i fare very well in those stressfull times..
any suggestions?
no not homeless per se now-but its day to day here...but when i look back--i remember that every time i have been in a pickle--somehow-ive escaped unscathed..yet- there are no guarantees...so fear comes back into the moment during stressful times... :(

btw what you are describing at the end of you post- is to me very toaist- and i like the tao. energy is constantly in a state of flux and change..life force too--the whole taiji te symbol represents change!
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Re: why become whole?

Postby karmarider » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:42 pm

DJW wrote:Karmarider- I find you to be very articulate....


Thanks!

DJW wrote:Does it help or hinder us (or niether?)to have forward looking dreams and goals?
something to dream about and then experience in the moment?..for instance I can be happy right now. thats my choice. But what if my goal was to say visit some exotic place or build an ultralight to expereince the Joy of flight?- thats something that happens down the road- making it not of the "moment"? and perhaps a distraction? But If my motivations are purely for myself and the enjoyment of those "things" Does that make it incorrect and "off-centered"?(as you refer to it as...)


DJW, the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with any human endeavor. Enjoy the dreaming, being happy right now, visiting exotic places, flying ultralights--enjoy them purely for yourself. That's all wonderfully human.

The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with the mind or personality or ego. There is nothing inherrently wrong with these--but what can make them troublesome is the context of off-centeredness.

Human life, being human--this is a deeply satisfying experience. This is why we are here. A great deal of spirituality seems to be about escaping or transcending being human, and so none of that has any appeal for me. It is about fully embracing the experience of being human in human form, and this is deeply satisfying no matter what the content of the experience is, and if it is not deeply satisfying it is only because of the off-centeredness in the mind.

To eliminate the off-centeredness, you can look at what it feels like to be you, the sense of you. Notice the only thing which is constant and certain, and that is your sense of existence.
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Re: why become whole?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:18 pm

Jen said: I don't know, because I didn't ask - if I ever knew one who didn't also feel the love when they let themselves go, when they disappeared into the music. Did you?

DJW said: not sure if that was a rhetorical question-but ill answer it anyway. I dont remember feeling that love- not in the same way you describe. and not how those glimpses feel like.

What i do remember feeling was a great sense of accomplishment when i would complete a set of Bach. Or when i played a difficult peace easily..thats what kept me motivated.

my whole identity was based on what i did. Not on what i was.



The question was real so thank you for answering DJ. I wonder what will happen the next time you play - aware that the notes and you and the air it reverberates into and the strings and the tension and release and and and.. are all one perfection expressed in a moment - even dischordant ones are perfection in a moment - followed by another and another and another :D And when you notice that just for its pure self... it's like relaxng into a pure pillow of yum!! Like a warm safe hug where one and another blend and melt.... just is.

I guess some folks call it the zone in terms of physical and mental pursuits. I actually heard author Elizabeth Gilbert last night musing how in our 'modern' society we try to take all the credit and all the blame for the 'music' (or art or craft or whatever) that flows through us, whereas the ancients or 'different' cultures don't do that, we know differently.

And so I can go to your other musings -

DJ said: actually i know thats straying a little of topic- but when life gets in our face- the realites hit home,when in a predicament or illness etc..

:wink: You'll come to learn with me and with life ... there is no such thing as 'off topic'. When one strand of light beam of energy meets a different vibration it just goes off in another direction, it's the same energy, just different vibrationary rate - you can't get 'lost', or even hide, even if sometimes you might mistakenly think you are either lost or hidden.

DJ said: what do we do? how can we still be? in that moment- er..what i mean is- how can we center ourselves when there is a crisis?..i find in those times my spirituality seems to go right down the drain.

The choice is yours and no choice is wrong... and if you want to see what's down the drain go right ahead and follow it down there :wink: you still can't get lost, or hide.

The short answer is we 'let ourselves go' we invoke the energy vibration of love and fall into the soft pillow of it - regardless of where the pillow lays - I do this by the energy of the thought - What would love do now?

From there the music (energy) flowing is the music of love and we ride that wave through whatever experience we are having, still not making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of the experience or those involved in it. Still being aware, still being in a state of either this is what is required of me right now and I accept (am willing to do what I can), letting or pouring joy into it, and/or realising it is a moment in the journey on the path of our arrow flying in a particular direction.

Sometimes in a concerto we have to play the dischrdant notes to get to the really sweet ones... we could go 'oh no, that's terrible, I don't want to play that one'... and then we wouldn't get to the sweet ones - no choice is wrong. In terms of our journey, sometimes we have to play the dischordant notes to know they are part of the concerto of life. If we play them lovingly they don't seem to 'jar' as much, we embrace them as a valid and valued part of the concerto. So it is with life.

no not homeless per se now-but its day to day here...but when i look back--i remember that every time i have been in a pickle--somehow-ive escaped unscathed..yet- there are no guarantees...so fear comes back into the moment during stressful times...

Do you notice the projection of fear was / is outside of this moment's reality? It's kind of 'oh no, there's that discordant note I've never played yet.. and I don't know if I'll be willing and/or able to play it and keep going.

What you are fearing is in intangible imagination only, full of elements of 'unknown' because we are not actually 'there' and we fear thinking/feeling that we will be lost or powerless in that imaginary moment.

That feeling can never arise in presence (what is right now - this moment - where we get to choose making enemy, obstacle, means to an end or accept, enjoy and enthusiasm) because in presence we are never 'powerless', we always have these choices - accept that which you cannot change, change that which you can, or remove yourself from the situation.

If those projected imaginary moment come to pass, if they materialise exactly as you 'fear', YOU will be there, in all your beautiful gory/glory - and that's the difference. When we project we - our energy - is not actually there. The projection is 'us-less' so it appears useless. It's unexperienced so we don't know what it feels like in reality.
Then some people may mistake that if they actually end up in that moment then it will mean they are us(e)less.

If the sh one t really hits the fan presence arises and we are forced to get out of our own way - that's how you 'escape unscathed'. It's interesting because those moments when we 'escape' things just line up and we've gotten out of our own way resisting what is, whether we realise it or not we fall into that pillow, we 'let go', stop resisting and let g*d' - that is, we become one with what is and flow in the energy.

Now, that's not to say you won't actually become homeless - maybe you will - it still doesn't define who you are does it?
It still doesn't prevent you from flying on the energy of love, of responding to each real moment in acceptance, enjoyment or enthusiasm.

There is a whole other discussion of what brought you into this particular slip stream of energy, and whether you came into it knowingly and willingly, or if it was an 'oops - didn't really mean that choosing or willingness to experience', but that's probably far enough.

The guitar doesn't play itself :wink:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: why become whole?

Postby DJW » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:47 pm

Jen-I understand what you are saying and maybe im not at the developed state of consciousness that allows me to just "enter" the moment- or be aware of it enough during very stresfull times--its easy for me to sit here and say- yea- your right- i just have to "remember" or "choose".

But the fact is -at least for me- that Its easier said than done in times of crisis. Imagine this -just humour me?

its -25C, your girlfreind - now ex gf, has had a wig out.

She decides that she no longer wants you to be in her life- and asks you to leave and because its her place- she is able to do this- maybe she is not as advanced on her journey etc and doesnt understand the consequences of her anger.

so all of a sudden in a heartbeat you are walking down the highway-bags in hand -its snowing like crazy- you are hungry-freezing- angry,havent slept in 3 days, hurt possibly, and there is no solution within the known framework.

So you are 10-15 miles from town. middle of nowehere, and no one is stopping because you cannot be seen at night.(this has happened to me)

are you saying its just a choice away?..because if so i have to respecfully disagree...at leats in my universe. for now(?)



The problem is; im not advanced enough that anything you just said is going to make me feel any better. To quote Somerset Maugham,: "Its easy to be spiritual on the mountain top."

Jen- If you are able to just smile and be happy, during a time like that- then I want you to be my guru!! :) (kidding)

but for me- life can make it extremely diificult to choose the "love" when things go sour- ...

Im not saying its not possible- im saying it's mega difficult.

to use an analogy- you car is running fine - then you hit a bump- and all of a sudden you careen off the road.

you wonder why?...you followed all the things instinctively, you gave it your best shot at not going off the road, you have been taught well by trained drivers on what to do, you followed the advice and practiced many times in the event of this experience. but you still end up in the ditch.

ill bet 99% of humanity other than the buddha or jesus, or Mohammed or Stalking wolf would find that conditions do in fact influence our happiness. All I can say is: I know what im supposed to do-to be in the moment but it doesnt work, or it hasnt. In those crisis times. eventually a thought comes into my head or an idea of what to do...but there is all this unpleasantness in the " moment" leading up to that "moment"

Yet, i have given effort in those times, to choose to stay peaceful and happy, with no success. the car ends up in the ditch anyway.

- for some reason I am not able to center myself, the fear pervades, and my experience is not a happy one and usually full of unpleasant unwanted emotions.
that spiral, is ineveitable under certain conditions, such as torture or extreme pain or like my worst fears, not sleeping for 4 days straight!..thats pretty much the worst thing ive ever experienced.
other than a bad LSD trip i had once.

no amount of meditation helped in those times...no matter what i did i could not reach my inner "natural or pure" self. Not for want- or lack of effort, or understanding that it wasnt possible..and even when i gave up and just "was" it still did not solve the problem..the only solution was intervention. sad to say..

so If im missing something or if there is more practice to do?... then id happily do more if it meant guarantees like what you suggest by a simple choice..

ill do it...
Im not trying to ciriticize - or attack your point- i just dont "get" it in those times...



All i can do is be aware. aware of the pain or aware of the suffering.

buddha or not- if someone chops your arm off-or you drop an anvil on your pinkie! your going to hurt. and experience unpleasant moments. Even Jesus cried out on the cross.

Now i cant say about you-- but im no Saint.
so maybe there just is acceptance that suffering is inevitable whether enlightened or not?

and if thats incorrect- then it means that, im a long way to achieveing any permanent states of bliss...the glimpses are just that and they do get veiled over by our other self.

u.c. im sure if the buddha was being attacked by a tiger(ill use tiger and not a bear since it was india after all :lol: ) - he would do one of two things: accept that the bear is going to tear him to shreds. And thats fine if your in that moment because you dont fear death or anything that might come out of that sitaution, but the other choice is-- he allows his fear to help him run like; h.e. double hockey sticks out of there-!

what i want to learn- is to have that fear and use it to my beneift all the while feeling fine inside...not detached from that peace.
a great master once said:

what happens to you in life affects meditatiion- and vice versa.

This post is a statement on the practical realities of life, and that no matter what level a person is on-there will be times its nearly impossible if not totally impossible to connect to that source.

Jen it seems from your post that you can bypass that unpleasantness and pain of certain realities...? your then are blessed.

but for me its an issue.

maybe im just not aware enough? or just not developed enough to be able to just transport myself at will into the "zone of wonderful??" I can when i take some time -in a comfy environment-and i feel secure.

yes then i can reach those states. but when my body is freezing, im homeless, cold, hungry, havent slept in three days, broke and not knowing where to go or what to do?.(i.e. no friends family relatives etc, to turn to)- thats difficult for me...
right now im great!..but there are no guarantess that i can hold onto that state- when things get in your face--? are there? :?
DJW
 
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