I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

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I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:02 pm

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=3005724

We are all one. Everything is connected. Subject/object discourse is limiting. Advaita is at the core, is the very essence, of many of the world's religious & spiritual traditions, including Christian (Cloud of Unknowing, Thomas Merton, Anthony De Mello, Cynthia Bourgeault) Hindu, Sufism, Buddhism, Taoism, & others. But what I find in this far-reaching wisdom is a call to be more compassionate, inclusive, and loving.

What do you find? As you consider & experience the reality of advaita are you gravitating more toward living from the heart, bringing more acceptance, love and compassion to others, or do you find a more nihilistic stance is where this all leads?
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby azooo » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:17 pm

One thing is to speak about non-dualistic concepts one thing is to live them.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:22 pm

Thanks for your reply, Azooo...could you say more about that? You offer a tantalizing but somewhat cryptic message. :?
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:29 pm

When the two extremes collapse into one, aware love and compassion is all there is.

In a topic that Karmarider just started about Conversations with God, webwanderer has added a link to Neale Donald Walsch talking about an experience 'in' the oneness. If one is living in the extremes (think a swinging pendulum) one thinks of being either/or and being able to move 'towards' something, or 'away' from it. In awareness one knows that they are 'it' and only perspective is moving.

I do understand your protestation though, perspectives make the difference - in interpretation. Knowing and being, is different to perceiving, is different to thinking.

When you 'know' a thing, you are already one with it, and therefore you move with it, rather than towards or away from it.

From that link - look at the conversation from 'above' it - including that each are perspectives on a thing...
Compassionate person: Dude, doesn't it make you sad that so many people are suffering in the world?
Non-duality space monkey: No, that's just the way it goes.

Compassionate person: That's messed up, don't you care?
Non-duality space monkey: Well there is no such thing as an individual anyway, so their suffering isn't even real.

Compassionate person: Wow, you are a serious space monkey. Dare I say it, a non-duality space monkey.
Non-duality space monkey: Yeah, I know.


How 'compassionate' is the 'compassionate' person actually being?
I would suggest (perspective) that they're creating their own suffering and projecting that onto others, resisting realities, judging the paths of others - including the 'suffering' and the 'non-dual space monkey' based on their own perspective of things not even of their knowing.

The expression of compassion for self and others with love would ask - does the perspective of another 'being sad' change anybody's reality of suffering in their circumstances?

If not, then it's maybe pity - projecting over and about circumstances of others, experienced from a distance and in separation. This then prohibits any action towards alleviating the suffering, if one is busy 'being sad' then one is busy 'being sad'. Being sad is creating suffering for self, let alone being impotent to assist another.

its also maybe posturing - look at me I'm compassionate and in comparison you're not - hence you're a space monkey.

Compassion, is acceptance and embracing 'what is' with love, and love does not separate, hence the alleviation of suffering is a shared thing, rather than a judgement (separation) thing. It's respectful, does no harm to self or others.

On the Dalai Lama's Compassion and Wisdom tour he chatted with folks about suffering and problems in their lives, sharing his experiences that have helped him overcome suffering, talked about the thoughts that create suffering; at the end of his presentations in my city he joyfully said he was now off to another city to chat with different people. He said with much love that if people still wanted to suffer that was their choice, he had shared what he could and couldn't take their suffering away from them, nor would he be taking it with him, it was theirs to do whatever they pleased with it.

There was nothing unkind or space-monkey about it, he had done what he could, shared what he knew, answered their questions and hugged those who were within hugging distance and 'wanted' a hug. He also respectfully acknowledged their choices were theirs to make, in thought and deed, in their own circumstances, and offered his wisdom - knowledge gained in experience and shared in love.

There is in compassion an acceptance of the reality - in the moment- and a willingness to be love in the circumstances.

Compassion for others has no impact upon one who does not have compassion for them self.

It doesn't over-rule the choices of the one in the situation, it does no harm to self or others because in love one gives only that which is gratefully received.

The above quoted conversation can very much be viewed from the 'judge not, lest you also be judged in the same manner'.
The one judging, is 'labelled' as Compassionate - from whose perspective?
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:55 pm

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, SmileyJen. I hear much of what you are saying. I agree that in most instances, being lost in sadness & other emotions makes us rather unavailable for being a support to one in need.

There was a night I was volunteering at the hospital when a few car accident trauma victims were rushed into the Emergency Department. One was an 8 year old boy. He ultimately died that evening, in spite of valiant efforts to save him. I spent hours with his mom while doctors tried to help him. She cried, she talked, I held her hand. At one point I looked at her & just started to cry myself. We hugged. It felt in that moment like she broke through some barrier. I became a trusted ally for the rest of our time together, & she kept in touch with me for a while after. So...while it is true that my becoming an incoherent blubbering idiot would not have helped her...some detachment was necessary... when she realized I "felt" for her-that's when she really experienced a supportive presence.

I think in the Space Monkey dialogue, what would strike as very odd & yes, cold, is the "in the head" retort the so-called Space Monkey offers (sorry if that term is insulting to anyone!). If I am in crisis, I don't really think such an intellectual reply would feel compassionate...I don't think I'd believe for a moment that this individual gave a hoot about what I was going through.

Just to be clear, I do believe that we needn't stay stuck in pain, loss, grief, so I am not advocating a life of dwelling on pain! That's not compassionate, loving or sensitive. A life-affirming approach to suffering acknowledges the pain, but doesn't promote clinging to it, or carving an identity out of it.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby azooo » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:23 am

Sorry if my reply was cryptic. What I wanted to suggest it that many find the idea of non-duality a compelling excuse for their actions and "ways of thinking." To elaborate further on your question now....


But what I find in this far-reaching wisdom is a call to be more compassionate, inclusive, and loving.

What do you find? As you consider & experience the reality of advaita are you gravitating more toward living from the heart, bringing more acceptance, love and compassion to others, or do you find a more nihilistic stance is where this all leads?


What I experience is that when one is aligned with the Truth what needs to happen happens. If there is need for sorrow, acceptance, compasion there is sorrow , acceptance, compassion. If there is a need to act nihilistically then a nihilistic action happens.

The core of non-dualism is not really in a bunch of exotic concepts about the Truth and their logical consequences. It is easy to get drawn into a belief system where everything is being shrugged of with a phrases of the form "everything is an illusion." And yet what is interesting is what happens when such a person (call it a Non-duality Space Monkey) faces a threat in the form of financial loss, death, sickness.

At the core of any non-dualistic teaching is the freedom from all concepts the root of them all being the sense of a doer - of a "you". When this is seen as an object in itself, then there is nobody to claim any action and hence nobody to claim any consistency or patterns of behaviour.

Questions of the form "what am I to do, how am I acting, .." case.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:32 am

Expressing sadness in the form of allowing tears to fall in oneness with the sadness of the mother and your own experience of the situation, as an example is BEING - authentic, in the moment, responding to what is. Compassion and love need and have no qualifies, they just 'are'.

That's the difference - the 'don't you feel sad about all the suffering in the world' notions are pointless, placeless, response-less except in the talking about it.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:43 am

azooo wrote:What I experience is that when one is aligned with the Truth what needs to happen happens. If there is need for sorrow, acceptance, compasion there is sorrow , acceptance, compassion. If there is a need to act nihilistically then a nihilistic action happens.
azooo wrote: interesting is what happens when such a person (call it a Non-duality Space Monkey) faces a threat in the form of financial loss, death, sickness.

Terrific! Thanks for elaborating, Azooo.

smiileyjen101 wrote: in the moment, responding to what is. Compassion and love need and have no qualifies, they just 'are'.


Thanks so much, Smileyjen! That helps. Getting more clarity here!
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby Yutso » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:00 am

The need for the absolute necessity of embracing the necessity of our human nature. The center of compassion is everywhere, it has no circumference. Enlightenment, compassion; two sides of same coin.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby runstrails » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:15 am

Treasure the day, I laughed out aloud at the title of this thread and the definition in the link you posted. Thank you for that.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby alex » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:38 pm

Sometimes I feel like a nihilistic space monkey for sure, on the flip side I also experience shockingly deep and beautiful compassion. The petty stuff really doesnt get through anymore but the true sorrow of the world and people does, it pierces my heart like it never has before and I bleed with compassion. Sometimes it's like I feel the entirety of the worlds suffering all at once! It's somehow beautiful to be able to touch that level of sorrow without resistance, to let it fill my being and simultaneously feel the 'OKness' of everything. That despite this level of human suffering all is still as it's meant to be. Anyone else know what I'm rabitting on about?
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:21 pm

Beautfiul reply, Yutso. I believe our human nature is good!

Runstrails, glad you enjoyed that!

alex wrote:The petty stuff really doesnt get through anymore but the true sorrow of the world and people does, it pierces my heart like it never has before
That's where/how I'd like to live! I would prefer not use up energy and time emoting over trivial matters like insults, slights & the like. Would be so much less self-centered & more compassionate to attend to the very real concerns of others.

Sometimes I have that enlightened perspective & other times I cave in to self-absorbed nonsense (see my Judgemnet, Envy, Anger thread for specific examples.) Annoying, disruptive, silly behaviors needn't coax our attention! (The four year old having a tantrum in Walmart is usually silenced more effectively by the mom who ignores him than by the mom who gets flustered & impatient!).

Thanks, Alex, for the honest & revealing reply. Maybe it will help me to arrive at a more helpful perspective. Maybe I too, can make a turn from futile self-absorption toward the world with everyone & everything in it. One little turn can be transformative.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby SandyJoy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:17 pm

So many good responses here-- And your question is an important one. And you are correct, it is a slight turn. Not a huge leap, but yet it does take the action and some faith and trust and to move on. You heart tells you that "non-duality" is not the end of it, and especially when we might find our self or we see others involved becoming 'cold', as you say. (which reminds me of when I was little and I would play the hiding game of "hotter-colder" with my brother--Just remember, when things get colder you are losing your way to the hidden treasure, Treasure, and when you are getting hotter, you are getting closer) Or we could say that when the heart feels warmth and safe you are getting closer.

And I cannot forget to say it is all about the Balance---you will find a very Sweet Balance, and it will become obvious to you. It will feel so right that you cannot deny it---it may take awhile to get used to it, but you will begin to ride this balance with joy and delight and freedom. You will find your self in Love with the world again, even as it is, you will understand the reason it is like it is and you won't suffer its slings and arrows any more, you will find the mess and commotion to be more like a happy, exciting day at a Moroccan bazaar.

Our journey to understanding, our urge to find Reality is kind of like hiking up a mountain, and as you go, you come to each new plateau --you rise up as you go around and around--you ascend to newer views with each turn. But you do not leave the old views behind, they are now included in your ever expanding view.

Toward the top the path grows more narrow. It become only one child wide. The view becomes vaster and wider and ever more all inclusive with each higher plateau reached.

Many on this journey will get stuck on particular plateaus--the 'non-duality' plateau is one of those points that can be most attractive for a time. We think this is it, this is the end of the climb, we say 'there is no climb and no climber" we say "there is no more to this 'one without another' and we say "what is there to do for my world, my world is not real" and so it goes, we get all that non-dual dogma stuck on our feet and we don't take any further steps, and some just kind of freeze to death there as they lose ground and things becomes more barren and cold and lifeless.

At the 'subjective-non-dual" plateau we say we are empty and there is no self, no me, no "I" and nothing to fix or or change. And that plateau is quite right, that view has its place, but we have to move on--that is not the end of it.

In our heart we know this is so, in our heart and soul, something (that Wonderful Something) continues to push us, something continues to feel the heat of a flame in our heart and song of a distant call and as strictly 'advaita' as some become, if we are lucky a longing grows and an asking continues, a sorrow pushes and hope blooms and worry nudges us--- and thank God. Thank God it does.

And if we do not move from that position, and if we are not moved by own inner longings-- Something in Life will come along and kick us from that position, boot us and move us anyway, despite our stubborn stance. That is because God is Love and God/Life does not let up until we are arrived Home once again, the Child again, born again and standing atop the mountain where every plateau below is included in our total being and we see that not one mis-step or stage of our journey was wrong or unnecessary.

Here at the top, after leaving even 'non-duality-ville" we find our self again. And we not only find our self again, but now, we cannot stay--- we must go back down the mountain and live in the world with all that we have been shown, all we have seen and known, all we were given from the top of the mountain is now instilled within our being. Now we are back in the world, but now we are not the same person who left this world but the world is more real and alive more wonderful and more beautiful than ever we could have known without our journey to the top.

Where we stood for a moment, for a moment in no time we we were given the Keys to the Kingdom, we were shown the Light of Truth and Given a White Stone and New Name and the Light we know now, will never leave us. And we can come back to this world, right here and right now and we understand it all, and know how to live, this time we know who we are and we know and we know what we have found. Now we are fully aware of both this blessed objective world that is God's alone and His Light shining Here and we know the subjective-non-dual world that shines the Light on "what is real and what is not real" and the two become one--- We understand. It is now seen all at once, more than one, like an alchemy the two views make a third and whole view, wherein both perspectives, dualism and non-dualism, become this sort of combined Third position of seeing that Life and I are both at once and and yet Life and I are more than both and greater than either.

Kind of like when you were a little kid learning to ride your bike, you struggled with the bike for a time, you struggled with the peddles and and motion and handlebars and you struggled with the terrain, the grassy hill, the bumps and curbs and you worked between the bike and sidewalk for some time---but then, you felt it, you got it, the balance, you felt it, it was perfect, it was easy, then there was this "third' position, it included you and the street and the bike all at once--three of you together---Now something is familiar, you knew it when you felt it and you kept feeling it, the balance, the three become one-- and then you really got it, you began to ride, smooth and easy and the bumps in the street and bike become one with you the rider and the three become one---yet you enjoy the whole joy of riding your bike freely without thought of how you are doing it. And even when you take a header and fall in a ditch, you know that you know how to ride that bike--so ditch is no problem and the knowing will never leave you. It's kinda like that

Ok, as usual, too many words---but I have so much more to say about this---there are many other ways I could say this--but for now, this what comes to me to share here with you. So, I will trust it and let it be.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby treasuretheday » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:29 pm

Thank you for your generous reply, SandyJoy! You write with such vivid & poetic imagery. Clearly, you live from your heart. I see you use the word "heart," & I sense that for you it is not as a place that harbors sentimentality, but rather is a place of real depth. Part of my tradition (Christian) is to imagine the heart, as many a saint has observed, as the place within that allows us to be in contact with "spirit" or "the divine."
So purity of heart is a state that fosters connection with the holy. I feel you have such a pure heart, & such connectedness, when I read your writing.
SandyJoy wrote:In our heart we know this is so, in our heart and soul, something (that Wonderful Something) continues to push us
SandyJoy wrote:At the 'subjective-non-dual" plateau we say we are empty and there is no self, no me, no "I" and nothing to fix or or change. And that plateau is quite right, that view has its place, but we have to move on--that is not the end of it.

SandyJoy wrote:we must go back down the mountain and live in the world with all that we have been shown


Beautiful, SandyJoy! Yes, there is a reason we are embodied in this world. As our physical heart experiences expansion & contraction, so does our "spiritual heart." So- we go within, connect deeply with spirit; then we go out into the world & radiate that divine presence to others. You present a a fine example of that movement.
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Re: I Don't Want to Become a Non-duality Space Monkey!

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:56 pm

Bravo Sandy, bravo.

This little child sometimes still grimaces and pouts at this ....
In our heart we know this is so, in our heart and soul, something (that Wonderful Something) continues to push us, something continues to feel the heat of a flame in our heart and song of a distant call and as strictly 'advaita' as some become, if we are lucky a longing grows and an asking continues, a sorrow pushes and hope blooms and worry nudges us--- and thank God. Thank God it does.

And if we do not move from that position, and if we are not moved by own inner longings--
Something in Life will come along and kick us from that position, boot us and move us anyway, despite our stubborn stance.

...but it's true.

I read somewhere and have not found it again - "Change is the violence that throws us headlong into our future."

With the understanding of violence being forces against ones willingness, or rather against ones stubbornness. :wink:

You cannot retrace your steps and undo your knowing.


Yutso said: The center of compassion is everywhere, it has no circumference. Enlightenment, compassion; two sides of same coin.

Or two ingredients blending into and from our experiences.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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