Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Sighclone » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:04 pm

However, I am not enlightened nor liberated because I can't tell you with 100 percent conviction that this 'Self/Awareness' is eternal and not merely a product of our brains. While, I would say it seems more and more likely, almost to the point where I have zero doubts that it is eternal based on the evidence of those who have been there, I still can't tell you with 100 percent, certain conviction that I know this as a fact. So, it's not right nor wrong, but yet, many of us seem to discuss this as though it is a truth.


Any authentic enlightenment will manifest in some form in the brain, be it fMRI, EEG or some other measurement. Which is the chicken, and which the egg? Ultimately it does not matter. Awakening happens, and the event, as a "personal experience" either continues or it doesn't. A private research project team is developing an inexpensive neural feedback machine for use by the general public at low cost. Just because it might be a "product of our brains" is no reason to declare oneself "not enlightened nor liberated." In general, an initial event occurs, then a few months or years of integration of that event into daily life seems necessary. Perhaps the integration fails. Concepts and symbolic definitions are never more than pointers. Either you have awakened for a period of time or you have not...and you will know that, and report it, and perhaps even demonstrate it in your behavior, even if erratically. It is difficult to measure the level of awakening of another.

Zen -

I have had only a few experiences with 'others' in the astral dreamscape plane, so these comments are not from experience. But Nanci Danison (backwardsbooks.com), like smiley, had a profound nde and reports back "Light Beings" who were actually a composite entity, composed of herself and five others. Her book is "Backwards: Returning to our Source for Answers." Jac O'Keeffe has also had experiences with guides. I assume the Crimson Circle is the "Tobias" source - please confirm.

Thanks for sharing your dreamwork!!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:16 pm

Andy, so funny you mentioned Nanci's book as I literally just started it yesterday. I'll post my take on it when I finish reading it as I watched the video of her NDE and it really moved me.

Thanks for your comments. There are times where I can live continuously from that point of 'presence/Awareness' and merely observe life while there are other times where the person is still operating like this morning when I woke up with some stress, thinking about certain things I had to do and things going on in 'my' life. So, it's a work in progress. But, it's all good either way. 8)
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:52 pm

Sighclone wrote:I assume the Crimson Circle is the "Tobias" source - please confirm.


Yeah that's right :) have you read much about them/watched many of their videos? My favourite 'external' source of information changes all the time, but at the moment it's those lovely people.

Sighclone wrote:Thanks for sharing your dreamwork!!


Thank you so much for that :) I'm really happy with the way my explorations are going. Even the bumpy bits!

Enlightened2B wrote:So, it's a work in progress. But, it's all good either way.


I love that attitude :)

Much love to you all,

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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:52 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
So the only thing holding you back from being 'liberated' is your own construction of a need for certainty? Okay... then naturally the only thing that will ever cause you angst is your perception of uncertainty... yes?


I'd say this is pretty accurate. Granted, I really don't care if I'm enlightened or liberated anymore. It's not longer something that I feel is stopping me from spiritual growth. I think the term enlightenment is a mental construct or idea of some place/goal in the future that does not exist. It's almost like setting a goal to attain this. I'd say most of us here on this board have awoken on some level to the realization that we are not who we think we are. Some are able to live it more so than others. I've experienced liberation for days and even weeks on end with merely a sense of 'being' and sensing how life merely 'flows'. It's like thoughts either stop temporarily or they are just witnessed. It's pretty indescribable and there's just a feeling of merely 'BEING one with everything. There's no me, other than a physical body and there is no you, other than a physical body.....until identification with mind comes back and then there's a 'false self' once again. But, this is how I feel awakening is, ebbs and flows, and basically, less and less identification with mind over time. It's a gradual process for most and as said in the post above, deep down inside, I know that it's all ok whether we awaken or not.


Albeit, I tend to go now to 'questioning' the hypotheses that make this seem impossible - they are in the 'physical', intellectual, biological psychological realms and they are the ones with holes in them, and flaws, and things that need to be 'believed'. That's the 'upside down' thing.


Yes, this is a good point. I think that's the fundamental flaw with materialism...in that....it's an assumption with no backing.

Actually, my Dad - the rationalist / agnostic - was a great person to ask this. ... and, by chance, I did :D Sadly and gladly both equally, he said he couldn't with any good conscience any more deny that which he'd seen and experienced as proof of this eternal nature of awareness, either with me - as in a shared experience him on one level, me on another in awareness & capacity giving 'evidence' / perspectives, and him absorbing the 'knowledge' to that degree of 'aha' awareness not requiring 'belief'.

Or through watching me innocently answering the questions for which science has no answers (and sometimes in ignorance and arrogance no questions either), and equally, me asking him to articulate the 100% evidence in scientific terms which he also could not conclusively - even to his own satisfaction, provide. Particularly in the 'collapsing' of time and awareness - those past present future all 'now' representations.

His conclusions were that just my 'being it' and his observance of the honesty of that, and the difficulty that being that brings to me, not from being it, but from being it honestly where others might fear and react, have feared and reacted in arrogance or ignorance. I guess in the absolute he can now see why my maternal ancestors were burnt at the stake rather than live a lie. It just 'is' and there is no denying that which 'is'.

He admits though our sharing does blow away the 'rationalist' arguments absolutely with valid evidence that I have been able to provide to his absolutely meticulously high standard of 'evidence'; (the same way Dr Bruce Greyson does with nde research we may not know what it is, or even how it is, but we cannot say any longer that it is not 'something'.)

But, that for my Dad, as he doesn't know 'what it is' just that 'something is' he can only say and therefore believe that he now thinks 100% that 'something' is eternal awareness. Which is pretty much where I am too.

So in a funny way he's still a total agnostic except that he's a believing agnostic now, rather than a disbelieving agnostic. And I'm a skeptic psychic more than a psychic skeptic --- maybe :wink:

It's funny because it was one of the first thoughts (having had many, many 'arguments' and 'debates' with him over the years) in the nde, was that my Dad was going to find this all really interesting when he gets here ('here' being 'there' :wink: ).

The thing is though, I also 100% 'knew/know' that when he has this realisation, when it 100% IS known, he won't be able to describe it either. It would be no more and no less than every other realisation, every other 'aha' moment, as you must have had letting go of your 'limited' perspective about rocks.

It just is so 'nothing/everything'.

The other thing is I cannot 100% say that my perspective is right either. I can eliminate what it's not, but I cannot in all honesty detail what it 'is'.

So maybe, one can come to this awareness through another - maybe the words of Jesus were somewhat 'right' that others could come to it 'through him'. Although, somewhere along the line that got skewed to 'only through him' :evil:

It does and doesn't matter universally, but it does and doesn't matter individually as it relates to the universal understanding.

I know one of the worst 'experiences' for me in physical experience, and in witnessing it, for my dad, for my daughter and for my mum, and to a degree some medical officers at a loss what to do for/with me, was me in absolutely as if in first person experience physically totally physically with all medical monitors and 'symptom responses' proven to be happening to 'me' (and my screaming and projectile vomiting if anyone moved me didn't help) experiencing the radical abdominal surgery of someone else who was anaesthetised (and I had no 'conscious' idea they were having the surgery to remove parts of their stomach at the same time in another hospital); and for understandable reasons at the time they were energetically 'linked' to me empathically.

It just hit me unexpectedly and it was hell!!! I thought I would die from the pain of it, my vitals were through the roof, and not having the medical staff at the emergency room understanding that (eventually) in a logical process of elimination I knew this wasn't 'mine' (and hence why they could not find the 'cause' in me) but for pity's sake ... anaesthetise me or something!!! Of all of the witnesses, my Mum an empath herself, my daughter somewhat an empath and a paramedic and very aware of my 'linking' shit, the 'scientific' 'agnostic' one - my Dad, most understood the 'all' of the experience, the physical, the emotional, the intellectual reasoning that was being ignored and the absolute impotence in the experience both in the 'pain' etc and dealing with the ignorance / arrogance of supposed 'scientists' and 'healers'. It really cut him.

Once the real experiencer's surgery was over I was groggy and a little 'tender' but fine, and my vitals returned to normal as I slept (like a log of course). This was the second time - the first was 'only' a burst appendix :wink: - that I'd been rushed to an emergency room displaying 'symptoms' and part knowing it wasn't 'me' but that the 'symptoms' were out of control unable to be absorbed / muted, by me.

That 'clash' of understanding is the sort of 'proof' to him that wider acceptance, even without 'scientific' proof that we are not totally 'separate', could change the world and alleviate suffering the way the pure essence of religions detail, but unfortunately are either skewed in power struggles or ignored in ignorance/arrogance, and so then the baby is thrown out with the bath water.

Now I wonder about Jesus' 'disciples' did they 100% believe or know --- through him? Any theologians here? Do they state that they believe or know, or just reported their perspectives?

It's a good question E2B.


Wow, that's a pretty wild experience you document there. You actually felt another person's surgery? That must have been quite traumatic. Thanks for sharing your story Jen and the perspectives of each of your family members.

Do you now believe or 100% know about the resonant energetic awareness of rocks?


Well, I definitely do not know this first hand :D

However, after reading about NDErs, my views have really expanded. It's not just a matter of a 'rock having awareness'. It's more a matter that the old non-dual view I used to believe was quite limited as far as I can see it. Rather, it seems more likely that everything in existence has this energy of Awareness/Source running through it, be it, a person, animal, tree, plant, earth itself which includes rocks and even cells, bacteria, etc. It's not so much anymore that there is this illusory dream world that appears within this human perspective, but more along the lines that this world, while illusory, is not just being perceived by the human perspective, but is being perceived through everything in existence for the purpose of exploration/experience. It's just the evolved brain structures which allow for the 'self awareness' that we experience. Perhaps this self awareness....aka....'human consciousness' is what certain materialists are indicating that 'emerges' out of the brain and perhaps, yet, there is still a deeper awareness that is existing beyond that, eternally at our core as a sense of Being which comes before everything. Or not 8)

Hmm, I wonder if you can marry that notion of 'papier mache' as dimensionally limited, rather than 'unreal'. In the fullness of any awareness the previous 'beliefs' or 'perspectives' are seen more as dimensionally limited in our awareness.


Yes, that's definitely a good way to look at it. I've never really liked the term 'unreal', but I think it points to exactly what you indicate here. It seems unreal from the 'limited human perspective'
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:28 am

E2B, you will have no idea of the depth of gratitude & generosity I feel reading this response and sharing of yours ^^. Thank you, sincerely. It's like this sort of fearless and loving discussion not arguing about the reality of the 'what' and closing down discussion, but genuinely discussing the impact of awareness and yes the 'liberation' from narrow viewing, is why I am here (in this forum that is :wink: )

I used to wail to the mods.. are we there yet? are we there yet? So that I could participate in a discussion such as just this one without scaring the crap out of folks.

Sometimes we would 'nearly' get here and then falter in fear and separation. I remember explaining to Webby once that we had to go through the process of defining 'what' in order to discuss the effects of 'what', that if 'what' is totally ignorantly and arrogantly ignored or shelved that we could never get to the beauty of working with the wider awareness truths, and discussing the nuances of that - the light at the end of the tunnel I guess (no pun intended :wink: ).

When I first 'discussed' and detailed my nde and very lightly touched on my clair and empath effects, I did so in response and asking and opening provided by my perspectives of the movie The Hereafter that shares the journey of a 'psychic' who is also depicted as energetically empathic / sensitive (and overwhelmed as DJ detailed) and a woman who experienced the nde state - fiction yes, but you have no idea from this 'backwards' way, how beautiful that movie is in touching the 'issues' that one cannot even comprehend unless they first seek to genuinely skeptically - open mindedly and questioningly look at these things as a 'what' - a 'something happened' not as a 'nothing happens / happened'.

A member here back then said they could appreciate how 'lonely' it must be to have this ... whatever .. awareness (both nde and clair) and have people not understand as DJ and I well know, the 'various nuances'.

Even sciences have opened up more since that time, such a relatively short time ago - we now know that 'flat line' is not the end of brain activity (albeit we don't yet know what it is doing), we now have studies on species different to humans and are talking about 'complex communication' and 'creating order' rather than the 'papier mache' version of 'life' in many forms, we now have studies understanding people on the autism spectrum are not 'insensitive' and lacking in empathy, but they are over empathic and their brains are having a melt down in many of their frustrations when their 'world view' is denied by participants in it. We now have studies in the 'mirror neuron' activities charting 'highly sensitive' people and the impacts of 'real' and 'imagination created' states. We now have a neurosurgeon realising his 'error' in his very own field of work, albeit I have to admit how disappointed I was that he chose the converted and the not sure as his audience and not those who are just like he was before his experience (my bad.. I waited for soooooo long for someone who 'could' if they chose, use the common language of science, better than those of us who don't have his depth of knowledge and experiences in brain 'activity' - I know it's the egoic little girl in me that is 'pouting' on this, and the 'warrior' in me that would want him to fight for what he now knows, and I also know it's not my business :wink: ).

We've come a long way in such a relatively short time.

The pure reason that we have is that we've been learning (collectively) to overcome our fears of the unknown - the notion that what we don't understand we destroy. In peace, in acceptance, those who not 'hid', but also did not openly share, can now do that in 'relative safety' - and often that 'relative safety' is not in concern for ourselves, but in not wanting to freak others out - to do more 'harm' than 'good' with the truth. Now, we're learning common languages (some even understand what I mean by pffffttt! and yum!!! :lol: ), we're learning to widen our appreciation and the world then turns from 'papier mache' to this wonderful multi-dimensional experience. It always was the wonderful multi-dimensional experience, we just didn't know it. That's all that 'enlightened' or 'liberated' (for me) is.

Are we there yet? We're pretty damn close now - in this one thread, bless you Zen for your openness and all the sharers in it for sharing their multi-dimensional perspectives and experiences in love. That's all the 'bliss' is. It's right here, right now and able to be experienced if one will just get out of their own way, and if they're unsure hold space for it to unfold. It's all it is. (to me that is :wink: ) Funnily not 'awareness in deep dreamless sleep', but 'awareness in awake life and living'.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:50 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Do you now believe or 100% know about the resonant energetic awareness of rocks?

Well, I definitely do not know this first hand


There's a wonderful little American lad who does! With no reading on the subject of crystals he constructed an intricate crystal grid. At first I thought he might have just placed them the way he did because it looked nice, but he says he finds the 'key' on the crystal that is it's Heart and holds the crystal to his ear so he can hear it. The crystals then told him how to make the grid and why it was useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5sSlfvsgYA

smiileyjen101 wrote: we now have studies understanding people on the autism spectrum are not 'insensitive' and lacking in empathy, but they are over empathic and their brains are having a melt down in many of their frustrations when their 'world view' is denied by participants in it.


Have you heard of so-called 'indigo children'? I've heard a number of different sources talk about the rise in 'sensitive' children. This likely includes children diagnosed with autism and ADHD. I think it was Adamus who said these children are being born because consciousness is evolving based on our present experience and we are choosing to allow a greater sensitivity for those who are now coming here. Abraham-Hicks gives a wonderful explanation of these children and why they are here in response to a lady who is struggling with her son's skills (e.g. predicting the future, feeling the emotions of others etc.). '

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRDR8pRfYs

smiileyjen101 wrote:The pure reason that we have is that we've been learning (collectively) to overcome our fears of the unknown - the notion that what we don't understand we destroy. In peace, in acceptance, those who not 'hid', but also did not openly share, can now do that in 'relative safety' - and often that 'relative safety' is not in concern for ourselves, but in not wanting to freak others out - to do more 'harm' than 'good' with the truth. Now, we're learning common languages (some even understand what I mean by pffffttt! and yum!!! ), we're learning to widen our appreciation and the world then turns from 'papier mache' to this wonderful multi-dimensional experience. It always was the wonderful multi-dimensional experience, we just didn't know it. That's all that 'enlightened' or 'liberated' (for me) is.


I think it's so wonderful that this is all happening! :) I enjoy nothing more than sharing in this widening experience!

smiileyjen101 wrote:Are we there yet? We're pretty damn close now - in this one thread, bless you Zen for your openness and all the sharers in it for sharing their multi-dimensional perspectives and experiences in love. That's all the 'bliss' is. It's right here, right now and able to be experienced if one will just get out of their own way, and if they're unsure hold space for it to unfold. It's all it is. (to me that is ) Funnily not 'awareness in deep dreamless sleep', but 'awareness in awake life and living'.


Do you believe we have entered the next age? In the sense of the precession of the equinoxes (Earth moving in it's orbit around the center of the galaxy so that it shifts from night to day?).

:) yeah I feel bliss is the feeling I get when I'm being who I really am. Haha! I love that last sentence - yum!

So much love,

Jack
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:28 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:E2B, you will have no idea of the depth of gratitude & generosity I feel reading this response and sharing of yours ^^. Thank you, sincerely. It's like this sort of fearless and loving discussion not arguing about the reality of the 'what' and closing down discussion, but genuinely discussing the impact of awareness and yes the 'liberation' from narrow viewing, is why I am here (in this forum that is :wink: )


I'm enjoying the back and forth as well Jenn and thanks for humoring me with my silly questions 8) (I never know which smiley face to use)

When I first 'discussed' and detailed my nde and very lightly touched on my clair and empath effects, I did so in response and asking and opening provided by my perspectives of the movie The Hereafter that shares the journey of a 'psychic' who is also depicted as energetically empathic / sensitive (and overwhelmed as DJ detailed) and a woman who experienced the nde state - fiction yes, but you have no idea from this 'backwards' way, how beautiful that movie is in touching the 'issues' that one cannot even comprehend unless they first seek to genuinely skeptically - open mindedly and questioningly look at these things as a 'what' - a 'something happened' not as a 'nothing happens / happened'.


Thanks for mentioning this. I'm a movie buff, so I will most certainly be looking into this movie now.

We now have a neurosurgeon realising his 'error' in his very own field of work, albeit I have to admit how disappointed I was that he chose the converted and the not sure as his audience and not those who are just like he was before his experience (my bad.. I waited for soooooo long for someone who 'could' if they chose, use the common language of science, better than those of us who don't have his depth of knowledge and experiences in brain 'activity' - I know it's the egoic little girl in me that is 'pouting' on this, and the 'warrior' in me that would want him to fight for what he now knows, and I also know it's not my business :wink: ).


But, I can actually understand why he chose the audience he did. If you think about it, if he chose to attempt to display this information he gained with his fellow 'close minded colleagues', what is the chance that they actually would believe anything he said? So, I think he realistically figured to reach out to an audience that would be much more receptive of his message and actually gain something most of all, from his message. But, I understand what you're saying. Awakening though, can only happen in those that are ready to awaken. Can't be forced.


The pure reason that we have is that we've been learning (collectively) to overcome our fears of the unknown - the notion that what we don't understand we destroy. In peace, in acceptance, those who not 'hid', but also did not openly share, can now do that in 'relative safety' - and often that 'relative safety' is not in concern for ourselves, but in not wanting to freak others out - to do more 'harm' than 'good' with the truth. Now, we're learning common languages (some even understand what I mean by pffffttt! and yum!!! :lol: ), we're learning to widen our appreciation and the world then turns from 'papier mache' to this wonderful multi-dimensional experience. It always was the wonderful multi-dimensional experience, we just didn't know it. That's all that 'enlightened' or 'liberated' (for me) is.


An interesting point, I think the while papier mache reference was merely to point out how much 'realer' our true nature is from what we actually believe. That aside, there are those who've had NDE such as Mellon Thomas Benedict who discuss beautifully how life in physical form IS where it's all it. As he indicated, and I will paraphrase, you can't do much without a physical body, and the physical body combined with the soul is the best of both worlds. I find it funny that so many non-dual teachings talk about discovering our nature and then kind of just 'living out' the rest of existence in physical form until we dissolve, as if almost, 'waiting to physically die' which I took from Nisargadatta's teachings later in his life when he was sick, but many NDErs such as MTB mentioned above, have such a contrasting outlook after they left their body, that they have now come to appreciate this physical world of form so much more and I think we all can too right now. Right? Why not?

Are we there yet? We're pretty damn close now - in this one thread, bless you Zen for your openness and all the sharers in it for sharing their multi-dimensional perspectives and experiences in love. That's all the 'bliss' is. It's right here, right now and able to be experienced if one will just get out of their own way, and if they're unsure hold space for it to unfold. It's all it is. (to me that is :wink: ) Funnily not 'awareness in deep dreamless sleep', but 'awareness in awake life and living'.


Thanks for bringing to the board what you do Jen. I love this forum, because of all of the diverse opinions and views we get on here, even the materialist ones....ahem....Ash :D
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Sighclone » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:08 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Andy, so funny you mentioned Nanci's book as I literally just started it yesterday. I'll post my take on it when I finish reading it as I watched the video of her NDE and it really moved me.

Thanks for your comments. There are times where I can live continuously from that point of 'presence/Awareness' and merely observe life while there are other times where the person is still operating like this morning when I woke up with some stress, thinking about certain things I had to do and things going on in 'my' life. So, it's a work in progress. But, it's all good either way. 8)


It is all good, E2B .. thanks for sharing all you do!

Andy
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:20 am

I'm going to respond from the bottom up :lol: (of course I am :wink: )

E2B said: I love this forum, because of all of the diverse opinions and views we get on here, even the materialist ones....ahem....Ash :D

Me too, almost 'especially' the materialist opinions and views because they do as my Dad used to - hold me to account (in terms of the 'integrity' of my word/s) make me have to clearly define and describe as best I can, and open -raise perspectives > widen my own understanding of how these things are explained in their minds (if at all) and why these things are feared > reacted to, as they are. I want more of them!! Ash in particular has been a great gift to me in widening my own perspective, although when he disappears from a topic I never know whether he's stopped reading as well as stopped responding....
(strains of Peter Starstedt's 'Where do you go to my lovely .. tell me the thoughts that surround you, I want to look inside your head...' :wink: )

It's a 'boundaries' thing, I know. A dear wise old friend once said that individually we know very little, but if we share our 'views' of things, together we know everything that is known about a thing. Albeit at the time he was bemoaning the handing over of human intelligence to 'machines' to the point that the vast majority of people were using less and less of their own brains.
(now that might bring Ash back :wink: )

E2B said: (re Dr Eben Alexander) But, I can actually understand why he chose the audience he did. If you think about it, if he chose to attempt to display this information he gained with his fellow 'close minded colleagues', what is the chance that they actually would believe anything he said? So, I think he realistically figured to reach out to an audience that would be much more receptive of his message and actually gain something most of all, from his message. But, I understand what you're saying. Awakening though, can only happen in those that are ready to awaken. Can't be forced.


Absolutely, no choice is wrong - (sigh...pout... sigh....) He has started a study organisation called Eternea to bring together science and spirituality but it seems a little 'closed' in membership and I'm a bit put off by the 'membership fees'. Maybe it will just take time. But goodness, if I had his knowledge... some of it might be 'right in front of our eyes' and just misunderstood in terms of the way the brain works, particularly with the knowledge that flat line is not the end of brain activity, and what that might mean about the neo-cortex's involvement in our 'consciousness, or not. I have questions written all over his book - not 'spiritual' questions, scientific ones - the sort that Ash would ask - only Ash would frame them better. You can see the sorts of 'questions' I have in this topic viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11426&start=15
Not that it 'really matters', life goes on :D (hahaha didn't mean that 'spiritually!!)

I think the while papier mache reference was merely to point out how much 'realer' our true nature is from what we actually believe. That aside, there are those who've had NDE such as Mellon Thomas Benedict who discuss beautifully how life in physical form IS where it's all it. As he indicated, and I will paraphrase, you can't do much without a physical body, and the physical body combined with the soul is the best of both worlds.

I agree. Life is beautiful, in all its gory glory, the ability and the appreciation of the ability to notice 'nuances' 'compositions' of the 'equilibrium - in the 'light' state it's all only 'known' as blended in perfection, nothing 'hidden' nothing 'ignored' nothing not known - I've discussed it in terms of 'temperature' and of 'all knowledge' but it's also in 'all feeling' everything blendedly, knowingly blendedly experienced so one cannot have 'a perspective' one can only have 'all perspective', one cannot have 'an experience' one can only know all experience. To then in body form awareness 'appreciate' the nuances, the perspectives, the 'unknowns', the 'unseens' the 'feel' or 'feelings' it is .. yes clunkily 'limited' and 'slow' in comparison ...but it is glorious as well - to 'know' and experience ice cream...!! The warmth of the sun...!! To know pain and then relief, or rather no pain then pain then no pain, to know laughter, to know tears, to know love and to know fear, it's exquisite.

Exquisite is the 'right' word - it melts perfectly. (Def: extremely beautiful and delicate. Intensely felt. ---(yum!!))

The only 'problem' with this inherently 'ignorant' state, if one is unaware of their ignorance then 'labels', false labels are like an assault in a way. In the early days trying to discuss the light state caused the incredibly ignorant to 'assume' that I wanted to return there in a hurry and labelled me 'suicidal' - nothing could have been less true. Yes I was 'homesick' particularly wading through the mire of ignorance, but my sense of absolute privilege being here... even in that mire of ignorance, just such a precious gift. Life is a precious gift. Whether it's all we have, or not.

E2B said: (of the movie The Hereafter
Thanks for mentioning this. I'm a movie buff, so I will most certainly be looking into this movie now.

You're welcome. This movie came up in a discussion with Dr Bruce Greyson he too liked it and said he thought it
did "an excellent job of portraying the heavy burden of clairsentience (as well as the relief at finding others who share that gift)." And I'd have to agree, although I was never 'alone' with my 'stuff' :wink: It was nice to see it portrayed so well by Matt Damon.

As you are a movie buff, he also said there was another movie that does an excellent job with this, the original “Resurrection” from 1980 with Ellen Burstyn. He said there was a remake in 1999 with Dana Delaney that is not good. I haven't seen either so can only offer you his recommendations.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:36 am

Zen shared:
There's a wonderful little American lad who does! With no reading on the subject of crystals he constructed an intricate crystal grid. At first I thought he might have just placed them the way he did because it looked nice, but he says he finds the 'key' on the crystal that is it's Heart and holds the crystal to his ear so he can hear it. The crystals then told him how to make the grid and why it was useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5sSlfvsgYA


Brilliant video on soooo many levels Zen, thanks for sharing.
Firstly, I think children have always had these capacities - the era of children being seen and not heard is well and truly over, and thank goodness for that! These abilities, how can I not say they are just natural, I've never known life without them. I wonder if they're 'punished' or 'shamed' out of being used.

What Adam is doing with the rocks in sensing their energies and 'communicating' is what is also taught in spiritual development at the spiritual church I went to, they call it 'psychometry', it's fairly 'basic' and an easy (I hear) thing to learn.

I grew up just knowing it as 'feeling'. Yes able to interpret and translate it. It's why I've always known that rocks are 'conscious', and not just crystals either. And why our own energy fields also effect electrical things. Interestingly, us affecting 'stuff' is now accepted as an after effect of nde situations, but I wonder if it was always there and just not understood. I can literally affect a whole line of street lights - from inside my car, which I didn't realise was 'me' until someone mentioned it

- side story - I was driving home from the Spiritual Church one night (absolutely 'energised') and a friend was following me in their car to come and stay at my place. Along one stretch as I approached each light it would kind of burn brighter on my approach and then go off as I moved under it, and then after I'd passed each light would come back on again. I'd seen this before, looking in my rear view mirror, but actually thought and rationalised that they had installed 'movement sensor' lighting as street lights. My friend driving behind me was watching this and thinking 'wtf???' When we got home she asked and I gave the 'motion sensor' answer and she was like ... No????? So I checked with our council... umm great idea.. but no :( My brain automatically goes ... why not? Why waste electricity?

Some of the 'noticings' I had in the video - his 'poor mum' :wink: Not really, but she's doing really well in asking the 'right' questions. I know with my own daughter how difficult it is to figure out whether we're talking about a ten second answer, a deep discussion, or if we're off to the library because I have no idea what she was talking about!!

His pattern and knowledge of energy in motion - and particularly that it was filmed in Las Vegas, butts right up against a doco about a solar and salt crystal power plant that's been built in the Nevada desert and will (if not already, I don't know when it was filmed) be powering Las Vegas - one of the most power hungry cities in the world. Their 'pattern' does exactly what his does in that solar panels and mirrors are directed towards a tower where salt crystals store the energy and from there will light up Las Vegas... I only saw this last night... (dodododooododododoo hahaha!!). http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 038488.htm

Have you heard of so-called 'indigo children'?

I have to say, I ...'hate' is not the right word... (I have a 'knee jerk' reaction is probably better) - but labelling people is just wrong. In any form. Hero or villain as I've discussed before, 'genius and stupid' 'gifted or witch', it's just wrong. It delineates where there need be no delineation (for me). In experience it just misses the mark and leads to unnecessary experiences of bigotry. In the emergency room situation I described before - once I had logically eliminated that the 'symptoms' I was experiencing and expressing - in some ways my body (and brain) can be like that big crystal energy store house that Adam was using to 'process & dispel' 'negative energy' - it took a lot of courage on my part (and yes overcoming the likely 'reactions') to say 'I know now, it's not mine' - as in the 'cause' of the symptoms was not mine. I learned that because in the previous episode experiencing my then boyfriend's sudden burst appendix, and unknowingly being in the ward next to where he was in the same hospital... I was subjected to invasive unnecessary medical procedures and absolutely the bigotry of an attending doctor. I don't need that on top of what I already naturally experience.

Even in the more recent experience some of the comments were abusive and ignorant and arrogant, but I was in so much pain I really didn't give a rats what others thought, I just knew I didn't need invasive procedures to be performed on 'me' to explore a 'cause' that was not 'mine'. Because of my daughter's dual understanding (as a paramedic) knowing they needed to go through the 'elimination' process more slowly and more 'thoroughly' than me; and her absolute understanding of my 'energy field' stuff, she was trying to mediate - but mostly trying to tell me to go easy on them, they were just doing their jobs as they know how. It was easier for her to tell me, than them. She knows she uses her intuition a little 'differently' with her patients, but as yet there is no 'competency' for empathy or understanding of the ways in which it can manifest and be used.

So, have I heard of the 'indigo children' notions, yes. Do I 'swallow it' as some philosophy that they are evidence of us evolving - no. What is evolving, but is yet far from perfect - hence the 'labels', is a wider awareness of these capacities in human beings and in all other living things. The labelling is more evidence that we are not 'there yet'. It energetically sickens me to see, hear, and I know the unnecessary suffering that comes from such labelling. To do this to innocent children is just wrong. We are all special in our own special ways - when that is accepted then we will understand without creating 'more harm than good' by segregating and labelling.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

I will say though there is and has been no 'rise' there is just rise, although a still somewhat limited acceptance of what has always been.

In cultures where this has always been known and always been accepted without persecution or awe, these things are not 'special' or 'new', they just are. And they are listened to, and learned from, in a very different way.

Do you believe we have entered the next age? In the sense of the precession of the equinoxes (Earth moving in it's orbit around the center of the galaxy so that it shifts from night to day?).

Again Zen, I'm sorry, I don't see any intergalactic 'plan' unfolding. I do see however that mediums (like the internet) that allow us to share understandings are allowing us to bring down 'constructed boundaries' and bigotries geophysically and philosophically on Earth. One would only have to go back to teachings such as Desiderata, or the recordings of the teachings of wise people like Jesus and the Buddha and to the witch interrogations, or to the creation stories of the Dream time, or the Braun seer or Nostradamus' sharings, Joan of Arc, or many many artifacts of intelligent consciousness in 'cave people' and many 'people' since, to know that this 'awareness' has always been here. It's been distorted as an enemy, obstacle or means to an end in order to subvert power for generations ---- and still.

There is nothing new, under the sun. In that, I am a total rationalist.

Funnily not 'awareness in deep dreamless sleep', but 'awareness in awake life and living'.


...In re-reading this post... I wish I could 'inject' more of Sandyjoy in this, I am sorry if it feels 'too much' real. I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble.
Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Sighclone » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:39 am

there are other times where the person is still operating like this morning when I woke up with some stress, thinking about certain things I had to do and things going on in 'my' life

The body-mind-personality still bumps along, even for Nisargadatta, and even for Adyashanti. The rent needs to be paid. Relatives remain imperfect. Therefore tensions arise into consciousness. Tim Freke is my go-to guy on this: the personality still accompanies the body, and it is very very OK. Pure Awareness / Aware Presence etc. is simply a refuge. Being Present with the arising tension exposes it to the crucible of Spirit -- it will dissipate. The "person" E2B has much deeper resources to deal with any form of perceived arising stress.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:16 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Absolutely, no choice is wrong - (sigh...pout... sigh....) He has started a study organisation called Eternea to bring together science and spirituality but it seems a little 'closed' in membership and I'm a bit put off by the 'membership fees'. Maybe it will just take time. But goodness, if I had his knowledge... some of it might be 'right in front of our eyes' and just misunderstood in terms of the way the brain works, particularly with the knowledge that flat line is not the end of brain activity, and what that might mean about the neo-cortex's involvement in our 'consciousness, or not. I have questions written all over his book - not 'spiritual' questions, scientific ones - the sort that Ash would ask - only Ash would frame them better. You can see the sorts of 'questions' I have in this topic viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11426&start=15
Not that it 'really matters', life goes on :D (hahaha didn't mean that 'spiritually!!)


Thanks for linking that thread Jen. I skimmed through it and I'll have to read it more in depth. I actually have Dr. Alexander's book right here, but haven't read it yet. I'm reading Nanci Danison's book right now. So, I'll post my thoughts on both when I finish. I'm really enjoying her book right now.

Here's my take on this. Sounds like you are suggesting that there is a potential that what NDErs experience are merely products of the brain. Or at least you're questioning if there is something with the brain that could potentially cause this. Here's my response. First of all, is there a scientific explanation for Pam Reynolds case? Aside from looking at how these people's lives are forever changed from these experiences (even the ones who turned to religion who might have misinterpreted their experience), aside from how 'real' it is for them, the one factor among the thousands of reported cases that should really stick a nail in the coffin of the (brain as origin) debate, is simply the commonality with all of the experiences. If it was merely a mishap of something going on in the brain, then more than likely, (almost guaranteed), each experience would be 100 percent different and almost a dream like quality which is so far from what these people are reporting.

Then again, maybe that's not what you're saying, but am a bit surprised that you're potentially calling on science to possibly provide some answers to this. It's almost like a 'sims video game' and one of the sims characters insisting that the characters within the game have the tools to figure out their actual reality, not realizing that they live in a video game :lol: .

That's how i equate this to science trying to figure out reality. Science is the study of the physical, tangible universe. It's done a fabulous job at doing that, but what we are at our core, is so far beyond that and I'm realizing this more and more from the more NDE accounts I read. Perhaps, they are not proof necessarily (depending on who is reading it and depending on how you define 'proof'), but I would definitely call it evidence, once again.....because of the large number of cases and because of the commonality of the collective cases.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:20 am

Sighclone wrote:
there are other times where the person is still operating like this morning when I woke up with some stress, thinking about certain things I had to do and things going on in 'my' life

The body-mind-personality still bumps along, even for Nisargadatta, and even for Adyashanti. The rent needs to be paid. Relatives remain imperfect. Therefore tensions arise into consciousness. Tim Freke is my go-to guy on this: the personality still accompanies the body, and it is very very OK. Pure Awareness / Aware Presence etc. is simply a refuge. Being Present with the arising tension exposes it to the crucible of Spirit -- it will dissipate. The "person" E2B has much deeper resources to deal with any form of perceived arising stress.

Andy


Thanks Andy for this piece of advice. I totally agree.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:49 am

E2B said: Science is the study of the physical, tangible universe. It's done a fabulous job at doing that, but what we are at our core, is so far beyond that and I'm realizing this more and more from the more NDE accounts I read. Perhaps, they are not proof necessarily (depending on who is reading it and depending on how you define 'proof'), but I would definitely call it evidence, once again.....because of the large number of cases and because of the commonality of the collective cases.

Yeh I'm a bit of a 'conundrum' for both 'sides' :lol:

When you do go back to that other topic ('not' proof of heaven 'for me') take careful note of the discussion about evidence and proof as I'm culturally comfortable, the notions of 'proven', or 'not proven' beyond all reasonable doubt. Culturally it's actually embedded as a wonderful legal system that aligns itself with the pure scientific rigours of the 'age of enlightenment' also credited to Scotland - in that people are able to be reasonably found 'guilty' as charged, 'not guilty' (innocent) of what has been charged, or a third somewhat legally unique I understand in Scotland, 'not proven' verdict where a charge has not beyond all reasonable doubt proven guilt or innocence.

There is another 'nuance' that a first person testimony cannot be constituted as proof in and of itself, but if there is supporting evidence able to be reported by another person, then it can be, and is allowed to be fully explained and taken into account in the weight of evidence. (Unlike other jurisdictions where it would be 'disallowed' completely).

It's a inherent difference in degrees of comfortableness and I dare say in 'rules of engagement' with things thought to be proven true or proven not to be true. Hence, why and how my Dad would hold me to task. The core 'thing' of his, and my, genuine scepticism and agnostic views, is this sense of 'justice' according to the facts of a matter.

For instance if a 'rationalist' tells me that I did not come back from that (nde) state with, - or that I did not have awareness and access to information beyond the 'normal physical capacity' while in that state - well that's just proven not true, not just to me, but to anyone witnessing it. The overwhelming evidence recorded on my return without any possible physical or mental 'processing' by me, just totally (and that was the 'thing' in evidence for the attending doctors and staff) blew the notion that it was just a dream or some illogical random delusion, some 'irregular' brain fart that I later made sense of. It wasn't.

As far as I was able, even not intentionally to 'prove' anything later, just in pure emotion I said "Don't let them turn that machine off until I can see him properly" - my body even at that point was not and had not been in a position where I even could have seen that my son was on a ventilator (machine) keeping him 'alive' - even apart from the fact that on return to consciousness within my body, I could not open my eyes and even when I could I could not focus them, and my Mum and a nurse were physically blocking my line of sight to my son anyway.

On a number of occasions when Ash has engaged even he has been unable to answer how - apart from my absolute knowledge of my awareness from a perspective of outside my body - did I not only know this, I saw it from above him, I described who came into the operating theatre after I was 'gone', and I also knew about his spinal injury and the permanence of it - and mentioned it (asking pre their 'investigations' of why he hadn't moved and still was not breathing hours later) what would they do, when they found the lesion - to the same nurse who I only saw from over the top of her head tending my body previously. That I had that 'ultra' awareness is for me and others who witnessed it, 'proven', not just beyond any 'reasonable doubt' but beyond any doubt at all. So the 'effect' is real. The evidence would stand up in a court in Scotland as being 'proven' beyond all reasonable doubt. It also proved that 'something' happened, to my agnostic, rational, Dad.

But, at the same time when spiritual folks jump to the conclusion that it means we 'go somewhere' when we die that is some magnificent 'heaven', I'm sorry, for me that is still 'not proven'.

So while the 'effect' has been proven, the 'cause' - not in the medical or situationally different 'causes' as individually experienced and made sense of, the actual 'cause' of this awareness - the 'capacity' for this awareness, as yet is not proven either way (to me) scientifically or spiritually beyond all reasonable doubt. If I can raise 'doubt', then it hasn't been proven, and so I'm left that I'm 'open', not closed in belief, either way.

For me, it has still not been proven that it is not a 'capacity' of physical proportions that our brains under some circumstances can 'access' information universally, globally, unrestricted by time or space

- albeit, expanded physical proportions along the lines of clair abilities and empath 'stuff' that is also for me absolutely is 'proven' to be able to perceive and interpret outside of what is 'normally' accepted in terms of sender-receiver communications across time and space and notions of what constitutes 'life'. (I genuinely see and speak to 'dead' people .... whatever 'dead' means)

I would be able to tend evidence suffice in a court in Scotland to have that upheld in so much as the 'effect', (as in the accuracy of the content of information shared in these 'states') but again not as to the 'cause' or the 'process' of how that occurs or what it means in terms of 'consciousness'.

I'm also not one to think that consciousness is generated by the brain. I'm just not. It is more proven than not to me that we 'tap into' conscious energy at different levels / frequencies / intensities and can make logical sense (or not) of our interpretations as per discussions in the Being Human thread. (Have you read that thread E2B?)

Sounds like you are suggesting that there is a potential that what NDErs experience are merely products of the brain. Or at least you're questioning if there is something with the brain that could potentially cause this

I understand that you appreciate what you think I said, but what you don't realise, is that what you heard, is not what I meant :wink: ---- Don't put that on your inside toilet door as I once did, it creates one heck of a queue!! :wink:

I'm not saying that ndes are 'products of the brain' or even that something in brains potentially 'cause' this state, that's confusing cause and effect. It seems to be an easy mistake for folks to make - confusing cause with effect.

What I am saying is that these states are 'real' - this level of awareness potential is real, and can be 'accessed' and interpreted by the brain in various situations, and 'possibly' even 'no brain' situations although while in life, that's stretching the hypotheses I know, forgive me.

Nde is the most 'extreme' version of this 'selfless awareness' in my experience - in clair & empath ways even while fully standing up conscious, there is this 'selfless awareness' capacity to absorb information consciously, albeit not as 'completely' as in nde. Where it 'hurts' physically or effects physically I can also provide evidence that would stand up in a court - I didn't just throw myself backwards off a chair when my friend was shot through the front of her head 8 miles away from me, (and me being blown backwards as if by 'nothing' at all was witnessed as a spontaneous 'thing' by others).

I didn't have a burst appendix crippling me and doubling me over in agonising pain when my boyfriend's appendix burst, and neither did I suddenly 'make up' the manifestation of the symptoms of that agony to get myself rushed from my workplace to an emergency room. I didn't just suddenly while sitting on a couch reading the paper decide to 'act' having my stomach cut open. I didn't just suddenly lose my footing and my 'sight' and my capacity to hold my body upright at the moment my youngest was hit by a car... I was physically winded.

And many, many more 'evidenced' events, these things are 'effect', not cause.

The 'effect' then is physically evident. Things about my nde were physically and intellectually 'evident' not just to me, but for others too. Others who like me, who did not have the answers as to what the 'cause' or the 'process' of it is, but the 'effect', that's proven beyond any doubt, not even just beyond any reasonable doubt, beyond ANY doubt, even for the witnesses.

Does that make more sense of my 'position' - straddling? It might make my 'rational arguments' and 'questions' in that other topic make more sense. And, I'd appreciate your feedback on them. I really am... open ... to possibilities and varied perspectives. If I say 'pfffttt' or 'yum' I don't mean it personally :wink:

I bow to Dr Bruce Greyson again for his scientific rigour and his pure respect for experiencers. I recall him once saying to me that it was just funny (he may not have used the word 'funny' --- that's me) that scientists who KNOW the limitations of what and how they are tangibly able to examine and discuss is less than 5% of what they 'know' is influencing everything (as in 95% dark energy / matter that has no understanding on our part) and yet some will so forcefully express views about the limits of it, knowing that they don't know the limits of it (be that the 5% or the 95%) it is just arrogance in ignorance.

In many ways, I'm a pretty good 'expert witness' for both 'sides' :wink: ==
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:38 am

Hey Jen, I got so caught up in the vegan thread, I almost forgot to respond to your post :D

smiileyjen101 wrote:
When you do go back to that other topic ('not' proof of heaven 'for me') take careful note of the discussion about evidence and proof as I'm culturally comfortable, the notions of 'proven', or 'not proven' beyond all reasonable doubt. Culturally it's actually embedded as a wonderful legal system that aligns itself with the pure scientific rigours of the 'age of enlightenment' also credited to Scotland - in that people are able to be reasonably found 'guilty' as charged, 'not guilty' (innocent) of what has been charged, or a third somewhat legally unique I understand in Scotland, 'not proven' verdict where a charge has not beyond all reasonable doubt proven guilt or innocence.


I did finally read most of the thread. I'm not very interested in the differentiation between the terms as far as NDE are concerned. I like what WW said in that thread, in that proof is subjective. That's kind of how I see it as well. I understand where you are coming from based on the title of the book. However, I think the terms proof/evidence merely distract us from the more important details of the NDE's themselves. Is it proof for me? Well, it's definitely evidence. The reason it has become evidence is not because one person claimed this, and not because two people did nor because 50-100 people did, but merely thousands (supposedly) and probably more that have had NDE with the majority having the same commonalities within each experience. That, to me, is evidence. Is it proof? That's based solely on who's looking at it. It might be proof for one person while not proof for another. Here's an example. Astronauts have told me that there are other planets within the solar system that act in certain ways such as the big red spot on Jupiter which is a massive storm. However, I have not seen this first hand. So, therefore, should I deny the evidence of astronauts and cosmologists as proof that this storm exists just because I don't have first hand experience of the 'event'?

It's a inherent difference in degrees of comfortableness and I dare say in 'rules of engagement' with things thought to be proven true or proven not to be true. Hence, why and how my Dad would hold me to task. The core 'thing' of his, and my, genuine scepticism and agnostic views, is this sense of 'justice' according to the facts of a matter.


Do I believe that NDE act as a form of 'truth' to the existence of what these experiences claim? No I don't. But, that's because I don't label anything as utter truth anymore other than the awareness that I am right here and now. However, what NDE reports DO, is allow us (in my opinion) to have a clearer understanding of reality and perhaps give us more insight in order for us to lean towards a certain position on the nature of reality/consciousness as opposed to clinging to something as a belief by stating as 'truth'.

On a number of occasions when Ash has engaged even he has been unable to answer how - apart from my absolute knowledge of my awareness from a perspective of outside my body - did I not only know this, I saw it from above him, I described who came into the operating theatre after I was 'gone', and I also knew about his spinal injury and the permanence of it - and mentioned it (asking pre their 'investigations' of why he hadn't moved and still was not breathing hours later) what would they do, when they found the lesion - to the same nurse who I only saw from over the top of her head tending my body previously. That I had that 'ultra' awareness is for me and others who witnessed it, 'proven', not just beyond any 'reasonable doubt' but beyond any doubt at all. So the 'effect' is real. The evidence would stand up in a court in Scotland as being 'proven' beyond all reasonable doubt. It also proved that 'something' happened, to my agnostic, rational, Dad.


Therefore....

But, at the same time when spiritual folks jump to the conclusion that it means we 'go somewhere' when we die that is some magnificent 'heaven', I'm sorry, for me that is still 'not proven'.


Going somewhere? No. I (like you) do not believe in an afterlife in the context we generally think of. However, none of the NDE cases I have looked into thus far, have claimed as such. I think the term 'afterlife' is a bit mis-used. I look at it as merely the end of this cycle of 'physicality' and now everything goes back to 'normalcy' so to speak, after the physical run ends for this body. Considering there are likely multiple layers upon layers upon layers of reality/awareness/dimensions, is there actually a 'true reality'? I'd say it's merely Source itself that projects it all. Reality is whatever is appearing in this moment in whatever dimension we are experiencing.

So while the 'effect' has been proven, the 'cause' - not in the medical or situationally different 'causes' as individually experienced and made sense of, the actual 'cause' of this awareness - the 'capacity' for this awareness, as yet is not proven either way (to me) scientifically or spiritually beyond all reasonable doubt. If I can raise 'doubt', then it hasn't been proven, and so I'm left that I'm 'open', not closed in belief, either way.


hmm, not sure what you're looking for here. It's good to be open as am I. But, Cause? clarify perhaps?

For me, it has still not been proven that it is not a 'capacity' of physical proportions that our brains under some circumstances can 'access' information universally, globally, unrestricted by time or space


this is the crux of the issue that you are referencing about the brain and sorry for misinterpreting that in the last post. Who's to say you are not correct about this? But, whether the brain itself is what is experiencing these NDE's by tapping into Source, or not, still has no bearing on the fact that what these people experienced in these NDE cases are likely real (as far as I'm concerned). the OBE part of the NDE to me is enough evidence (there's that word again) to show that the 'Soul' is actually leaving the body. Pam Reynolds in her NDE was able to identify numerous items in the operating room to a TEE that her doctors are completely stumped by this day.

I'm also not one to think that consciousness is generated by the brain. I'm just not. It is more proven than not to me that we 'tap into' conscious energy at different levels / frequencies / intensities and can make logical sense (or not) of our interpretations as per discussions in the Being Human thread. (Have you read that thread E2B?)


I read part of the thread, but it was so long that I couldn't keep up. I'll be honest. I'll give it another shot. How does that sound? :D

Jen, I'd like to read more about your NDE. I didn't know about it until very recently and I've been following this board since 2012. Can you send me a link to a post which references it? Thanks
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