Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:19 am

E2B said: However, what NDE reports DO, is allow us (in my opinion) to have a clearer understanding of reality and perhaps give us more insight in order for us to lean towards a certain position on the nature of reality/consciousness as opposed to clinging to something as a belief by stating as 'truth'.

I'm interested to read this E2B, I sometimes ask 'what does this do for you - if anything' in terms of the second hand nature of reading about these experiences.

Did you used to view these things in a totally 'disbelieving' way? (make enemy, obstacle, means to an end of it, or those who viewed it differently?) Can you illustrate changes in your awareness, capacity and willingness that this new(er) perspective feeds into?

I guess the thing about 'proven' and 'not proven' I know in other jurisdictions near enough is good enough either way and totally irrelevant considerations can 'skew' the understanding or even the deny the presentation of evidence (or heaven forbid (lol!! 'terminology') eliminate people that hold a different awareness, capacity and/or willingness to subvert the information from being known / used.

The same happens in scientific or spiritual 'investigation' if the premise is 'not proven' but treated as if it is.

I understand the way religions and philosophies get all zealous, but the scientific appreciation is supposed to also have these notions of proven correct, proven incorrect or not proven either way. And what I tend to find is folks on both sides try to fit the 'not proven either way' into one box or another to support their 'case' irrationally.
Which is why I still have the 'either - or' premise that I posted earlier in this thread.

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Here's the thing - either awareness is everywhere and eternal, with everything 'tuning in' and vibrating/energising at different frequencies in which time, space, 'individuation' are to varying degrees, known and experienced as 'constructs' of an impermanent 'play', playing and responding to stimuli and information to the degree that it is known as such and not believed as permanently 'real'. This 'awareness' transcends physical life in death, and can be transcended in 'life'.

Or, the individual human brain awareness has the capacity to transcend 'time', 'place' 'physicality' and access or create intelligent information and experiences outside of its physical sensory 'parameters' and when the brain dies, that's the end of the dream/experience/life.


Neither of these premises have been 'proven' or 'disproven', not even in my own experiences or any other that I've read about. I do tend to lean towards the first hypothesis because it just explains more of my own experiences within my cultural experiences, but I do not exclude any of the evidence of the second hypothesis where they do provide actual evidence. And yet some in both camps base their whole existence and world view as if one or the other have been 'proven'. In doing so they 'leave out' evidence to the contrary of their perspective, and in my experience create 'suffering' and 'bigotry' to unfold by their choices. That is neither scientifically, or spiritually 'honest'. That's my point.

Still, absolutely, no 'choice' is wrong, within our own awareness, capacity and willingness, experience based on whichever premise will make sense and not make sense. It just 'is' what it is.

The 'thing' for me with Dr Alexander's making sense of his experience, is that he is still making scientific assumptions that we know the capacity of the 'reptilian' brain, and that's just not true. And 'something' about that niggled at me. 'Niggles' are felt when intuition butts up against the physical awareness density. It just says 'Oi, pay attention here, there's something you're not seeing or accepting'. That's all. That after reading his book the 'new knowledge' being evidenced about the capacity of energy continuing in and throughout the brain after flat line.. that was also a 'head snap' ....pay attention!! There's 'new information' here.

E2B said: Considering there are likely multiple layers upon layers upon layers of reality/awareness/dimensions, is there actually a 'true reality'? I'd say it's merely Source itself that projects it all. Reality is whatever is appearing in this moment in whatever dimension we are experiencing.

Appreciating that you have expressed a discontent with uncertainty -- (see I 'remember' stuff that is important in perceiving)
I'd say there are not 'likely', but there are, even just in human intelligence layers upon layers of reality/awareness/dimensions of perspectives. This is absolutely easily proven in terms of ask 500 people their perspective on a thing and you will find 'stuff' 'new information' for and by each of them, in all manner of their individual perceptions of 'reality'. And yes, reality to each is what is perceived by them in whichever 'dimension' of the information that they are aware, capable and allowing to be experienced.

To 'jump to' the the assumption that 'it's merely Source itself that projects it all' is flawed. Sorry, but it just does not stand up with any evidence that supports it beyond reasonable doubt. Firstly, we have no idea there even is a 'source' outside of the collective energetic awareness of all living things expressed and experienced in the physical.

Secondly then we do not know the awareness, capacity or willingness for a 'source' to 'project' and on what scale and to what 'effect'.

And thirdly, we are then 'excising' the physical capacities of all living things to create their own experiences within their own awareness, capacity and willingness.

Understand, I'm not saying you're 'wrong'. I'm saying it's 'not proven' and therefore any hypotheses using it as a premise, will be flawed by the degrees of uncertainty. It's this that allows for 'beliefs' rather than 'knowledge' to be built upon. Whether one abdicates the response ability of our awareness, capacity and willingness in experience to some 'God', or some 'Source' it's pretty much the same thing (to me). That 'source' energy is in motion and does change 'form' is different - there's no 'allocation' or 'abdication' of elements feeding into and out of it.

Can you see the distinction?

I think the term 'afterlife' is a bit mis-used.

As are many terms, - 'life' 'death' 'consciousness' 'source', love, (yum, pfffftttt! :wink: ) only when we have a shared understanding of what it 'means' to each, can we truly evaluate premises and hypotheses.

So as well as not understanding consciousness (which has to be a baseline factor) we also don't understand what 'death' is or even elements of awareness, capacity of 'life' either. The notion of life occurring between birth and death is only factored in the physical, and as we know only 5% is 'physical' as we deem it.

Any hypotheses using perspectives of these things can only be a 'belief'.

However, among the stories and the experiences yes there are really freeing 'truths' - information that is gained that does change the material aspects of life experience and perspectives.

Pam Reynolds in her NDE was able to identify numerous items in the operating room to a TEE that her doctors are completely stumped by this day.

Well yes, for me in my experience too.

Although I've also done that while breathing and sitting up, or standing, or laying down awake :wink: 'viewed' things to a TEE that were not physically manifest here and/or now and 'supposed' to be cognitively processed by me. So there's something apart from the experience in the body, and apart from the experience in an nde that 'allows' this 'wider' awareness.

I do think it's niggly-funny, that the nde 'stuff' is gaining 'respectable' and 'respectful' attention and the 'clair' and 'precog' and physical empath and nature of synchronicity stuff still isn't. And yet it's far easier to experience - unpack, 'test for accuracy' etc than nde is.

I just remembered when I was thinking about this this morning (not 'blaming' science, but maybe 'bemoaning' a little) that the morning after the episode where my stomach was not being cut open, a neurologist came to see me in my hospital bed and asked if I wanted to discuss what happened. Nothing within my physical 'tests' explained the 'physical reaction' I was exhibiting. So maybe someone in the emergency room thought of it along neurological lines (which is great, the psychiatric or the religious lines had nothing to contribute on the nde 'stuff' :lol: )

So there I had an opportunity and I shut down. Me - I shut down. I was exhausted on every level and said no thank you, I was fine now and just wanted to go home and sleep. I didn't even bother taking her card to discuss it later. In honesty when this woman first entered my room I 'assumed' she'd be a psych of some sort - how it's been viewed or intimated before. So this was a little 'surprise' for me, even in my weary state, maybe we are progressing, widening our enquiries. We all respond according to our awareness capacity and willingness in any given moment. At that moment I neither had the capacity or the willingness - how easily 'opportunities' are missed.

Jen said: So while the 'effect' has been proven, the 'cause' - not in the medical or situationally different 'causes' as individually experienced and made sense of, the actual 'cause' of this awareness - the 'capacity' for this awareness, as yet is not proven either way (to me) scientifically or spiritually beyond all reasonable doubt. If I can raise 'doubt', then it hasn't been proven, and so I'm left that I'm 'open', not closed in belief, either way.

E2B said: hmm, not sure what you're looking for here. It's good to be open as am I. But, Cause? clarify perhaps?

Sorry, it's funny when you don't even know the question, let alone the answer.

I guess maybe the known possible options of the 'cause' of all of us who have these experiences of wider awareness, regardless of how it's individually achieved/experienced. The wider 'wider picture' of what these sharings are pointing to.
Here's some of my concrete questions at this point of my understanding -
- is the cause something 'unknown' about our reptilian and/or other brain and 'empathy' capacities - --- how do crocodiles know where to build their nests as discussed in that thread, that animals 'sense' changing energetic forces - pre tsunamis etc and respond accurately, that the efficacy of energy healing and diagnoses is correct, that precognitive awareness can be proven 'real' as experienced and 'real' as in unfolding at some other time, place; and that information gleaned and shared in clair ability experiences are accurate beyond the normal 'knowing' capacities that we assume are 'normal'.

Again I'm not saying the individual brains create the 'thing', but do possibly 'tune into it' differently

What is the cause of our 'sensitivity' to energy in motion creating a sense of 'knowing' or experience? Just in really basic terms. That's what I tried to detail the known aspects of our sensory capacities, in the Being Human thread, that many are unaware are basic capacities.

It is 'basic' and yet when these knowings emerge in modern humans and are applied and used, we deem it 'superhuman' or unusual instead of basic animal instinct and intelligence.

What are we missing sans all the 'beliefs' based on unproven premises?

Jen, I'd like to read more about your NDE. I didn't know about it until very recently and I've been following this board since 2012. Can you send me a link to a post which references it? Thanks

Sure. As I said earlier I first shared about it in any detail in the NDE, Clair abilities and synchronicity thread in the 'Beyond the Physical' section in response to discussions about the movie the Hereafter. It too, like this one, like the Being Human thread (and don't they all?) starts with an understanding and then spreads out organically wherever it will. I would now that I've shared a little more here, suggest that you do follow the link on the first page of it to a tiny thread where a young member was getting all 'spiritual' about experiences he was having and his girlfriend was having that was (I felt/ tasted / smelled when reading his original 'assessment') neurological in origin and I 'suggested' ---- it's not for me to 'prescribe', but I suggested that he consider neurological aspects and have her investigate the 'physical' rather than 'spiritual' side of it.

link to it .... viewtopic.php?f=47&t=8712

And as I'm like to do have scattered other 'details' in other threads as they've been relevant, mostly I guess in that 'Beyond the Physical' section as that is where these things are mostly raised in openness, rather than closed parameters. More detail and discussion about the 'life review' 'stuff' in response to Webby supplying a gorgeous 'what was learned' link in this thread viewtopic.php?f=47&t=9482

That thread discusses the nuances of the sense of 'judgement' and how that's just skewed here. Like your 'aha' moment about rocks' it's just realising a 'mis-take' that fed into experience, not punitive or anything in my experience, in fact the reverse, freeing all sense of 'wrong' doing.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:05 am

Hey Jen, thank you for the links. I will definitely read through them along with the 'being human' thread. You're giving me too much homework lol.

smiileyjen101 wrote:I'm interested to read this E2B, I sometimes ask 'what does this do for you - if anything' in terms of the second hand nature of reading about these experiences.

Did you used to view these things in a totally 'disbelieving' way? (make enemy, obstacle, means to an end of it, or those who viewed it differently?) Can you illustrate changes in your awareness, capacity and willingness that this new(er) perspective feeds into?


Yes, I used to view these things in a very 'disbelieving way'. I was an atheist for many years, so I often disregarded anything outside of the physical universe as 'non-existent' without even exploring it. I find myself gradually opening up to allowing 'the impossible' to be 'possible'. That's how it's also been with NDE's over the last month or so for me. I've read/watched videos for over 20 cases now and it's really opened my eyes up to a larger perspective of reality. Never had any mystical experience myself and in no way would I claim that these NDE's necessarily point to something that is true, but I see the possibility of what these experiencers are referencing and I think it's pretty darn cool whether one believes it or not.

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Here's the thing - either awareness is everywhere and eternal, with everything 'tuning in' and vibrating/energising at different frequencies in which time, space, 'individuation' are to varying degrees, known and experienced as 'constructs' of an impermanent 'play', playing and responding to stimuli and information to the degree that it is known as such and not believed as permanently 'real'. This 'awareness' transcends physical life in death, and can be transcended in 'life'.

Or, the individual human brain awareness has the capacity to transcend 'time', 'place' 'physicality' and access or create intelligent information and experiences outside of its physical sensory 'parameters' and when the brain dies, that's the end of the dream/experience/life.


Neither of these premises have been 'proven' or 'disproven', not even in my own experiences or any other that I've read about. I do tend to lean towards the first hypothesis because it just explains more of my own experiences within my cultural experiences, but I do not exclude any of the evidence of the second hypothesis where they do provide actual evidence. And yet some in both camps base their whole existence and world view as if one or the other have been 'proven'. In doing so they 'leave out' evidence to the contrary of their perspective, and in my experience create 'suffering' and 'bigotry' to unfold by their choices. That is neither scientifically, or spiritually 'honest'. That's my point.


Yes, neither of these have been proven nor disproven. I really like the part I bolded above. Because I feel like that represents so much of the spiritual community that I've encountered. Realizing the Self/Awareness through self inquiry is one thing, but calling it eternal based on self inquiry alone has puzzled me, how people can possibly attain this knowledge? I've realized that what we are is beyond this mind/body we think we are in 'Pure Being/Awareness'. That I know as a truth. However, I can't know anything further than that as pure truth. I've always speculated and even almost went towards the materialist view a few months ago when I started questioning the whole notion of 'non-duality', meaning Awareness beyond the brain. Until I started researching NDE's over the past month, it's really changed my outlook. We had this discussion with poster 'epiphany' in another thread recently and while I felt Epiphany was taking a bit of a close minded approach with materialism to some degree, I did agree with him/her in the sense that, there is no way to know directly this hypothesis you state above, until that is....you allow yourself to indulge in the research at hand pertaining to these NDE's/OBE's. But, many people disregard it because they don't see it as a valid means of evidence. I don't see it as ultimate 'proof', granted, I'm pretty darn close to acknowledging it IS proof, but I most certainly do see it as evidence that one can use to making an opinion once again, to 'lean one way or another'.

The 'thing' for me with Dr Alexander's making sense of his experience, is that he is still making scientific assumptions that we know the capacity of the 'reptilian' brain, and that's just not true. And 'something' about that niggled at me. 'Niggles' are felt when intuition butts up against the physical awareness density. It just says 'Oi, pay attention here, there's something you're not seeing or accepting'. That's all. That after reading his book the 'new knowledge' being evidenced about the capacity of energy continuing in and throughout the brain after flat line.. that was also a 'head snap' ....pay attention!! There's 'new information' here.


I watched a number of interviews with him and I haven't seen any scientific assumptions, but I haven't read the book yet, so maybe what you're referencing is in there. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Appreciating that you have expressed a discontent with uncertainty -- (see I 'remember' stuff that is important in perceiving)
I'd say there are not 'likely', but there are, even just in human intelligence layers upon layers of reality/awareness/dimensions of perspectives. This is absolutely easily proven in terms of ask 500 people their perspective on a thing and you will find 'stuff' 'new information' for and by each of them, in all manner of their individual perceptions of 'reality'. And yes, reality to each is what is perceived by them in whichever 'dimension' of the information that they are aware, capable and allowing to be experienced.


Actually, I would beg to differ :D

If you don't like the term 'likely', then you can just as easily substitute it with the word 'potential'. It doesn't matter to me. I don't hold any of this to be utter truths. All it's done, is open my eyes to the possibility/potential/likelyhood that there's a shitload more going on here than we think. However, we CAN create our own beliefs about a situation based on what we think is more 'likely' as opposed to creating beliefs unconsciously and clinging to them as utter truths.

I think the evidence is very strong to support the notion that the similarities in all of these experiences can give us a much better understanding of what seems 'likely' as opposed to what is 'true'. The testimonials of these people, their emotional reactions in the interviews and their actual experience has really opened my eyes to a reality that has the 'potential' to be true. Of course, this might not seem likely to others who disregard NDE research as evidence. Nor others who are looking for scientific, cold, hard facts about consciousness and reality, which you won't find outside of the experiences of others. But, 'leaning towards a position' on something as opposed to claiming that something as an utter truth allows that belief to be held in a conscious light if it turns out not to be true. After all, look at this forum and how many of us have claimed they know without a shadow of doubt as an utter truth, that Consciousness is eternal and beyond the brain. Those days are over for me. 8)

Just my opinion

To 'jump to' the the assumption that 'it's merely Source itself that projects it all' is flawed. Sorry, but it just does not stand up with any evidence that supports it beyond reasonable doubt. Firstly, we have no idea there even is a 'source' outside of the collective energetic awareness of all living things expressed and experienced in the physical.


I don't know what evidence you are looking for. The questions you're asking I don't think can be answered by us alone.

Secondly then we do not know the awareness, capacity or willingness for a 'source' to 'project' and on what scale and to what 'effect'.


Again, I don't think these questions can possibly be answered by our minds alone. I'm reading Nanci Danison's book 'Backwards' and she's got some pretty interesting stuff to say about this.

And thirdly, we are then 'excising' the physical capacities of all living things to create their own experiences within their own awareness, capacity and willingness.


We are :?:

Understand, I'm not saying you're 'wrong'. I'm saying it's 'not proven' and therefore any hypotheses using it as a premise, will be flawed by the degrees of uncertainty. It's this that allows for 'beliefs' rather than 'knowledge' to be built upon. Whether one abdicates the response ability of our awareness, capacity and willingness in experience to some 'God', or some 'Source' it's pretty much the same thing (to me). That 'source' energy is in motion and does change 'form' is different - there's no 'allocation' or 'abdication' of elements feeding into and out of it.

Can you see the distinction?


I understand the distinction and understand what you're asking, but I don't think we'll ever come close to this kind of proof that you are looking for, in our human bodies. Knowledge? pfeww. Forget about it. Wishful thinking. Does it really matter if we do find proof or not in the context you are looking for? Consciousness is a mystery to us because we can't locate it in a physical object which is exactly how science measures things. So, the suggestion that Consciousness is universal is more than just a suggestion as you and I both agree on. There are many scientists who are still looking into this as as possibility. (see Orch Theory which even has a quantum explanation for NDE). So, whose to say these guys haven't already discovered the answers? John hagelin, Thom Campbell all have theories on Universal Consciousness. Granted, they're not looked upon in the scientific community as actual theories, but I'd call them hypotheses/theories. Theories are the best we can do.

It's kind of ironic how in one thread about diet and nutrition, I'm arguing in support of nutritional science, while in this topic, I'm arguing that science has no basis to understand the mechanisms of our nature at its core. Very weird :lol:

But anyway, that Source that we speak of can be called energy/Awareness or whatever. Does it really matter? We won't know the exact details until we actually die, right?

So as well as not understanding consciousness (which has to be a baseline factor) we also don't understand what 'death' is or even elements of awareness, capacity of 'life' either. The notion of life occurring between birth and death is only factored in the physical, and as we know only 5% is 'physical' as we deem it.


Again, not understanding consciousness from a human scientific perspective, but what awareness is, seems so far beyond our understanding because you simply cannot measure 'ISNESS' or 'BEING'. So, what's there to really understand? I know it's cliche to say that, but can you?

There have been some scientists who have claimed that the dark matter in space is 'Quantum stuff' which could be the key to understanding Consciousness. I don't know.

Any hypotheses using perspectives of these things can only be a 'belief'.


And what's wrong with that as long as it's not held too tightly? It's not an unconscious belief. Aren't all hypotheses beliefs? Or are they merely statements about 'what seems more likely'? I don't see the difference.

E2B said: hmm, not sure what you're looking for here. It's good to be open as am I. But, Cause? clarify perhaps?
Sorry, it's funny when you don't even know the question, let alone the answer.

I guess maybe the known possible options of the 'cause' of all of us who have these experiences of wider awareness, regardless of how it's individually achieved/experienced. The wider 'wider picture' of what these sharings are pointing to.
Here's some of my concrete questions at this point of my understanding -
- is the cause something 'unknown' about our reptilian and/or other brain and 'empathy' capacities - --- how do crocodiles know where to build their nests as discussed in that thread, that animals 'sense' changing energetic forces - pre tsunamis etc and respond accurately, that the efficacy of energy healing and diagnoses is correct, that precognitive awareness can be proven 'real' as experienced and 'real' as in unfolding at some other time, place; and that information gleaned and shared in clair ability experiences are accurate beyond the normal 'knowing' capacities that we assume are 'normal'.

Again I'm not saying the individual brains create the 'thing', but do possibly 'tune into it' differently

What is the cause of our 'sensitivity' to energy in motion creating a sense of 'knowing' or experience? Just in really basic terms. That's what I tried to detail the known aspects of our sensory capacities, in the Being Human thread, that many are unaware are basic capacities.


My answer? I don't know and I'm ok with not knowing.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:58 am

E2B said: Yes, I used to view these things in a very 'disbelieving way'. I was an atheist for many years, so I often disregarded anything outside of the physical universe as 'non-existent' without even exploring it. I find myself gradually opening up to allowing 'the impossible' to be 'possible'. That's how it's also been with NDE's over the last month or so for me. I've read/watched videos for over 20 cases now and it's really opened my eyes up to a larger perspective of reality. Never had any mystical experience myself and in no way would I claim that these NDE's necessarily point to something that is true, but I see the possibility of what these experiencers are referencing and I think it's pretty darn cool whether one believes it or not.


Jen said: Any hypotheses using perspectives of these things can only be a 'belief'.

E2B said: And what's wrong with that as long as it's not held too tightly? It's not an unconscious belief. Aren't all hypotheses beliefs? Or are they merely statements about 'what seems more likely'? I don't see the difference.


E2B said: My answer? I don't know and I'm ok with not knowing.


What a gorgeous beginning, middle and end to that post E2B :D

The 'as long as it's not held too tightly' is pretty key in interactions with others and life and our planet.
The 'bigotry' that I speak of as harmful comes when folks not only hold 'too tightly' but do so in spite of concrete evidence to the contrary. (on all manner of things).

The final position of not knowing, being okay with that, leaving room for 'uncertainty', and weighing up the evidence as it presents, that's a generous, open, loving way of being. It widens appreciation for things not of one's own experience or perspective, it allows for multiple perspectives to be honourably and respectfully interacted with 'impersonally' if you like, but lovingly none the less. Which is 'different' to responses in ignorance, arrogance and fear which allow for harmful, disrespectful interactions.

Does it matter.. yes and no.

For example, I much prefer someone who's able to admit they're 'not sure' what's happening for me, when evidence suggests other than anything 'known', or who has accepted some things are not in the text book if and when I'm rushed to an emergency room and my 'symptoms' have no localised cause that can be found in my body; than someone who thinks they are sure, that there must be beyond the evidence something physically 'wrong' with me and is willing to perform unnecessary procedures and remove viable and healthy organs just to prove there must be something wrong with 'me', or demonise me, or tell me it's all in my head when my body is obviously reacting to 'something', even if not mine in cause.

So yeah, it does / doesn't matter, but it does / doesn't matter. :D

At the tender age of just barely 17 on presenting with my then boyfriend's burst appendix (how else can I state it now that I have more 'evidence'?) I was subjected to genuine horrors and a bigoted medico who was so 'sure' he knew what was happening for me he was willing to perform an operation and medically sterilise me, which makes no sense on any scale of understanding, medical or psychological. As they couldn't find the 'burst appendix' that I was presenting with the symptoms of - (cos it was in the operating theatre being removed from my boyfriend's body :wink:) one specialised team handed me over to another specialised team until someone was willing to say they did know what it was, even if the evidence didn't support it, and that they could 'cure' it, in a jump in logic that defied logic. And then when I argued against it, he abused me (physically and psychologically) and wrote in my records that I was 'irrational' and 'neurotic' and 'not to be believed'. Very common assaults and insults against women in that era who tended more to go with their instincts.

The fall out from that was devastating and very long lasting. When my own doctor saw the mess I was after his abuse (and no, I still did not allow him to perform the operation) he got my records and was livid at the abuse of the power that had been given to this man in the 'name of science and medicine'. 'Do no harm' didn't come into it anywhere. He did heaps of harm.

So yes, it does matter. It matters to me, it matters to the vulnerable, it matters.

The 'treatment' and the effects from a nun and a psychiatrist who both demonised and dumped 'labels' on me for discussing elements of my nde were tame pussycats compared to this bigoted medico.

If you think about it, it's this that had my 'healer' and 'seer' ancestors burnt at the stake in 'darker' days of abusing power and fearing in ignorance and abusing power in arrogance. So personally between people, socially between those with different 'beliefs' and globally between cultures, it actually is pretty important how we view and wield our knowledge and our lack of it.

In contrast, within my own culture where 'fey' is somewhat accepted, my uncle presented to an emergency room with abdominal cramps that also didn't have a 'localised' 'in his body' cause. One of the doctors said - your wife's not pregnant by any chance is she? To which he said Yes, she's nearly due. So they called the maternity hospital and confirmed that she was in labour - they concluded he was sharing her labour pains and sent him over there to be with his wife.

Is it just cultural? It may just be a genetic variance in empathic reach and tolerance. Even so why are these things not documented more widely as a basis for understanding outside of that culture?

I don't have anyone on my medical team now who thinks they know it all.

Again with the rise in awareness of 'nde' stuff folks will be asked, as DJ said if they experience anything when in a comatose or otherwise state, and yet this wider 'awareness' hasn't yet filtered through to other areas yet. I live in hope that one day I can let down my guard against ignorance and arrogance :D

It matters in all manner of arenas - 'gifted' or 'disabled' children are still abused by less intelligent 'teachers' and medicos and others in the same manner - conform to my beliefs or be punished, humiliated, labelled, disrespected, drugged!! (shudder!!)
Whole societies the same in politics and science and international relations - bow or be bowed forcefully.

Our environment and other species, the same, assaulted in ignorance and arrogance parading as 'knowledge'.

It's folly. It's not harmless.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:34 am

Jen, What a lovely post you've written. Thanks so much for sharing this with me.

I read your story about your NDE and I'm really so incredibly blown away by it along with that entire thread. You do talk in a language that is a little difficult for me to understand sometimes, but I think that is a result of your clearer understanding perhaps of the 'big picture' in 'being/awareness' a lot more so than I have. I didn't know the situation with your son which you had mentioned to me in a pm a while back and I was confused at the time as to what you were talking about and now I understand fully. Wow. It sounds like your nde really changed your life. I was very moved Jen by reading it and I'm glad I asked you reference that link.

You use the terms 'choosing love over fear' from what you learned from your experience. What I take that as....is not so much a matter of choosing between feeling love as opposing to feeling fear which is more along the lines of feeling positive or feeling negative which can also be helpful in the later context. But, choosing love over fear as I see it, is more about awareness to the mere 'being' that you are right here and now as opposed to having your life run by the unconscious conditioning/beliefs that most of us do. In the sense that, seeing through unconscious beliefs is what awakening is all about which I'm really coming to see. When we live our lives tied in to the conditioning and when we live from those identified beliefs (unconscious beliefs), we are essentially 'choosing' fear when we can be choosing love.

Choosing love on the other hand, means allowing 'what you are as Awareness/being' to shine on those unconscious beliefs to MAKE them conscious and there is only unconditional love to shine through at this point when there is no more fear. I see fear as merely a 'clouding' of love. I see it less as a choice as it is about an awakening. I see the term awakening as just that....awakening from this thought identified life that we were living into the realization that we are merely pure, unconditional love and this is the place to make choices from a place of awareness, as opposed to that based in fear. It's what the ego is all about. This has been my own experiences as well when I am simply 'being' and not caught up in thought identified belief patterns. It's just pure unconditional love which there is no other word to describe.

In that thread, either you or Andy mentioned the notion of fear when we are 'at the top of a cliff' and merely 'observing that fear' from a deep place of presence can go a long way in seeing through it or making that fear 'conscious' so to speak. So, can you clarify what you mean by choosing love over fear and if it's anything like I mentioned here or if anything I've said here makes any sense?

The post in that thread that WW posted about life reviews, I found fascinating.

I know this question will sounds cliche, but have you ever considered putting ALL of your ideas together into a book? Not just about your experience alone, but about what you've learned? I'd most certainly read it.

One last question. From reading these NDE reports, it sounds like (at least to me) that the expansion of love or reaching the highest possible vibration possible (as Nanci Danison explains) through physical form, is the main purpose from the larger perspective and if that's the case, then why is this physical reality not created in a way that is more conducive to awakening to what we truly are? Or maybe it is, and we've just been blind for so long?
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:30 am

Ahh bless you E2B, you're peeling back onion layers with gusto and staring down from steep cliffs all over the place :D

E2B said: You use the terms 'choosing love over fear' from what you learned from your experience. What I take that as....is not so much a matter of choosing between feeling love as opposing to feeling fear which is more along the lines of feeling positive or feeling negative which can also be helpful in the later context.

But, choosing love over fear as I see it, is more about awareness to the mere 'being' that you are right here and now as opposed to having your life run by the unconscious conditioning/beliefs that most of us do.

In the sense that, seeing through unconscious beliefs is what awakening is all about which I'm really coming to see. When we live our lives tied in to the conditioning and when we live from those identified beliefs (unconscious beliefs), we are essentially 'choosing' fear when we can be choosing love.


Pull me up if I lose you in this :wink: (it may happen as I try to 'collapse' many, many elements of it)
In the NDE clair abilities, synchronicity thread ---- I got sooooooo excited over the 'parallels' with electricity 'generation', flow, stepping down in 'voltage', insulating and conducting and how some just use electricity and never think or know how it works, they may get an electric shock now and again, but for the most part it just powers what they need it to power and they're happy with that. Others do understand how it works, and so for them electricity is a whole other 'awareness'.

- do you remember that bit of it and the two photos showing the 'spiderweb lines and 'globs' of 'connection - one a neuron in a mouse's brain, the other the universe?

Then in the life review topic sharing, how they are all (everything is) 'inter-relating' in energy of fear (close down, shrink from. separate from, 'resist' or 'reject') or love (open up, embracing, creating in unison) as shown in the little story by the lady feeling love for the homeless guys at McDonald's, and my sharings about my siblings and other interactions all inter-related.

Okay, if you combine that, with ET saying that of all the ways to open portals to the unmanifested - love is not one of them, love is what flows through from the 'unmanifested' into this 'whatever - life / sphere / experience.

I should go back and look at it again where he talks about that, but regardless, creation energy in my thinking, is absolute love - pure, unadulterated, un 'stepped down', 'un-insulated' pure equilibrium of gratitude and generosity. Almost the 'big bang' all the time. It is this energy explosion that powers everything in creation, everything from the minutest unseen / unknown thing to the gigantic too big to be seen / known things.

Compassion, and empathy are two 'conductors' (energetic conductors) of creation energy. Fear and ego are the 'insulators' against the free flowing creation energy - separation, ignorance to a degree, but more 'hardened' 'denser' if wrapped up with arrogance further enhancing & entrenching the sense of separation / difference / judgement right or wrong between and in elements of a 'thing' (whatever)....yes?

If you're still with me to here. What 'is known' in the light, in my experience, is this pure, unadulterated, unbridled, uninsulated, un-anything - totally naked, authentic, eternal 'source' energy just with no insulators at all, none, nada, we're just 'it', everything is 'it'. (hence why we don't need our 'body or brain connection' to be working the way it does in individual 'form'.)

I think I said in the other thread compare the difference in the energy in a lightening bolt to that flowing into a 240 watt light bulb... pretty huge 'difference', and a replicated system of stepping down and re-routing energy - naturally available energy from many things - all powered by the one 'eternal source, taking 'form'by slowing down the energy flow adding 'density', using and creating the same energy at different strengths and frequencies and in the doing so it all continually loops, all flowing back to source and out to everything and back to source and out to everything in an eternal but instantaneous 'loop'.

I see this 'practically' not flowery-spiritual. I really liked when I hit on the electricity stuff. I was producing an Electrical Safety production so I had to know this..............................................much, to explain this....................much in theory, so audiences would at least understand this........ much in practice, and not kill themselves working with or around it.

That it's been dressed up to be made 'palatable' that life is any different, is just fear insulating the truth of it, as it does. There is nothing on earth or in the heavens that is not created and powered in moving energy.

So, 'choosing love over fear' is in a sense letting go of some of the unnecessary 'insulators' between us, some of which are incredibly 'impressed' or 'stuck' on us. That we're in 'individual bodies' is one, and in my very humble opinion it's a great one :D that we have different perspectives upon which we build our beliefs and so therefore our actions, another.

Initially when I came back into the awareness of my 'individual' body, and to a degree, because the insulation-sense (ego, fear ... what's to fear :lol: ) was still pretty weak in an insulation-density-strength sense I had really like the finest 'filigree' or sheer silk boundaries in thoughts, feelings, 'knowledge', awareness, there was nothing 'physically' wrong with me (apart from the obvious but that was fine) I just didn't - the energy that creates me - this body - this 'persona', didn't fit back into my body, or my brain, without leaking out all over, . It was like my 'empath' stuff with no boundaries and no let up and no specific 'conduit' I was just everywhere - a touch of empathy over here - melt/blend, a touch of compassion over there melt/blend, a sense of joy (unbridled) over there melt/blend, albeit I didn't 'hurt' because it was still more 'equilibrium' than individualised experience if that makes sense.

So it's a little hard to explain 'choosing love over fear' when I really didn't have a choice, I know compassion was powerful, I know empathy was powerful - genuine empathy, not pity - they vibrate at totally different resonances. Pity is 'insulating' and distancing, true empathy is aware of how another is feeling, and recognising that even by very fine distinctions, it's not 'ours', it's theirs.

Now in the physical world we need physical and emotional and intellectual 'insulators' in order that we know the full capacity in experiencing the individual 'elements' of stuff that is otherwise blended in equilibrium, so 'boundaries' are not a bad thing - (sometimes I wish mine were 'thicker' :wink: ) but over enforcing them can create as much imbalance as under enforcing them. Imagine if we were all like energetic jelly all just melting over each other ---sticky mess!!

So in many ways I had to relearn to have boundaries, on many levels, not by choosing fear, but by balancing the elements of a thing in love, as it is in the equilibrium.

You can see the 'fear' and over insulating that occurs for some who experience extreme things and become 'bitter and twisted'. I had seen the natural consequence of that already so I had to find ways in choosing compassion for me and for others, in balance, to have individual experiences so that the love energy was neither too powerful (and then like lightening is - destructive) or too insulated by believing 'false emotions appearing real' ---- fear , and relearning the 'other - person-thing' element in terms of my empathy.

In some ways our 'circuits' were fried by the intensity of the light, but not in the way many 'scientists' think.

Using this awareness can be immensely powerful, incredibly so. Even in physical 'harmonising' 'balancing', Tai chi uses it, Taekwondo uses it, Aikido uses it - I dare say the ideas of the 'Peaceful Warrior' uses it. My Granny used to use it too and could 'channel' it to heal blockages and imbalances of energy in the body, so do other energy healers I have known, and been grateful to have been healed by. The interesting thing with them is - no degrees, no 'credit' to them, no 'money' changing hands its all about 'allowing' the energy to flow through them - the energy is intelligent energy, but not in the way we think of intelligence - it is 'intuitive' intelligence. Again in 'intuitive' and 'creative' pursuits it's this energy flowing through us unbridled - it never does harm, never. Only fear can do that. Fear can arise in tandem with it (that sense of wanting to pee your pants) but they are different.

But, choosing love over fear as I see it, is more about awareness to the mere 'being' that you are right here and now as opposed to having your life run by the unconscious conditioning/beliefs that most of us do.

Not just my 'being', but everything 'being' awareness - by degrees and with respect of course.

Gee, I hope that makes more sense now or you'll see a book written by me one day and say 'no thanks' :lol:
And I hope others forgive us hogging the thread and making it more about 'Experience of awareness in deep awakeness' :wink:
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:56 am

E2B said: One last question. From reading these NDE reports, it sounds like (at least to me) that the expansion of love or reaching the highest possible vibration possible (as Nanci Danison explains) through physical form, is the main purpose from the larger perspective and if that's the case, then why is this physical reality not created in a way that is more conducive to awakening to what we truly are? Or maybe it is, and we've just been blind for so long?
Enlightened2B


hmm, I don't know how to answer that 'spiritually' E2B .. .do you know fire science?
In order to create or have 'fire' you have to have three distinctly different 'elements' all agitating together - heat, oxygen and fuel (leaves grass paper - whatever)
If you remove one of those 'elements' there can be no fire.

So fire only 'exists' for as long as these separate elements are combining and melding and turning the energies of each, into a different 'form'. The combinations are creating it together.

The 'equilibrium' still needs the 'combining' of polar energies, and everything in between, in order to 'be' the equilibrium of everything.

I don't know that there is a 'main purpose' to creation, except creation. Or to 'awakening' except to awaken.

Just as we and others can 'use fire' and we can equally use oxygen, heat and fuel individually for many different purposes, we can use our 'lives' our little 'separate' 'element' of equilibrium in many ways and things as well. It's all just fuel for creation.

Whether 'someone' puts a match to a bonfire, or if a lightening bolt hits 'flammable' material, or spontaneous combustion occurs the end result is still 'fire'.

Whether we know our 'pure essence' by reading about it, or by some seemingly extreme experience, or by the removal of everything else that we thought we were... the result is still 'pure essence' awareness. (I imagine.. I don't have any evidence for that :wink: )
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:36 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Then in the life review topic sharing, how they are all (everything is) 'inter-relating' in energy of fear (close down, shrink from. separate from, 'resist' or 'reject') or love (open up, embracing, creating in unison) as shown in the little story by the lady feeling love for the homeless guys at McDonald's, and my sharings about my siblings and other interactions all inter-related.

Okay, if you combine that, with ET saying that of all the ways to open portals to the unmanifested - love is not one of them, love is what flows through from the 'unmanifested' into this 'whatever - life / sphere / experience.


I just finished reading PoN for the first time last week. (Previously read ANE multiple times, but never finished PoN)I probably shouldn't publicly admit that on an ET forum :lol:, but it was such a breath of fresh air to read his book this time around with a completely different understanding. Quite enlightening to say the least. Now, back to what you say here. I love the way you reference this to what you say here below....

Compassion, and empathy are two 'conductors' (energetic conductors) of creation energy. Fear and ego are the 'insulators' against the free flowing creation energy - separation, ignorance to a degree, but more 'hardened' 'denser' if wrapped up with arrogance further enhancing & entrenching the sense of separation / difference / judgement right or wrong between and in elements of a 'thing' (whatever)....yes?

If you're still with me to here. What 'is known' in the light, in my experience, is this pure, unadulterated, unbridled, uninsulated, un-anything - totally naked, authentic, eternal 'source' energy just with no insulators at all, none, nada, we're just 'it', everything is 'it'. (hence why we don't need our 'body or brain connection' to be working the way it does in individual 'form'.)

I think I said in the other thread compare the difference in the energy in a lightening bolt to that flowing into a 240 watt light bulb... pretty huge 'difference', and a replicated system of stepping down and re-routing energy - naturally available energy from many things - all powered by the one 'eternal source, taking 'form'by slowing down the energy flow adding 'density', using and creating the same energy at different strengths and frequencies and in the doing so it all continually loops, all flowing back to source and out to everything and back to source and out to everything in an eternal but instantaneous 'loop'.


This is utterly beautiful. Exactly how Nanci describes it as well in her book (sorry to keep referencing her, but relating it to her book that I'm reading now). You even bring up the notion of music in one of the other threads and as a musician, I can relate to this. When I was a little kid, my first encounter with piano was very much like this. What drew me to the piano initially was the vast difference in the bass notes....keys which had a dark, scary tone to them as perceived by a 5 year old, while the higher notes (thinner strings on a guitar) have a much more delightful tone. I remember thinking this as a 5 year old kid and yet it matches up with what you indicate and what Nanci indicates in her book in the sense that those living from a more 'conscious' perspective (so to speak, meaning not living from fear/ego) have raised their vibrational frequency (so to speak) much higher to align with Source as in the pure unconditional love that already 'is', than those who are still living from anger, fear, hatred,....basically ego, etc.

You questioned the notion of 'Source' in one of the last posts in this thread, but you're describing it so perfectly well right here. I don't see Source as a separate 'deity', more along the lines of what you indicate here. It's mere 'being' composed of all of the collective perspectives of everything imaginable which constitutes this one infinite energy source/awareness.

I see this 'practically' not flowery-spiritual.


Well, it might not be BS spiritual, but if this conversation that is taking place between me and you right here and now can come out of this Energy source which is essentially what we are, at our core, then what can be more spiirutal than that? Just my take.


So, 'choosing love over fear' is in a sense letting go of some of the unnecessary 'insulators' between us, some of which are incredibly 'impressed' or 'stuck' on us. That we're in 'individual bodies' is one, and in my very humble opinion it's a great one :D that we have different perspectives upon which we build our beliefs and so therefore our actions, another.


yes, yes yes

Initially when I came back into the awareness of my 'individual' body, and to a degree, because the insulation-sense (ego, fear ... what's to fear :lol: ) was still pretty weak in an insulation-density-strength sense I had really like the finest 'filigree' or sheer silk boundaries in thoughts, feelings, 'knowledge', awareness, there was nothing 'physically' wrong with me (apart from the obvious but that was fine) I just didn't - the energy that creates me - this body - this 'persona', didn't fit back into my body, or my brain, without leaking out all over, . It was like my 'empath' stuff with no boundaries and no let up and no specific 'conduit' I was just everywhere - a touch of empathy over here - melt/blend, a touch of compassion over there melt/blend, a sense of joy (unbridled) over there melt/blend, albeit I didn't 'hurt' because it was still more 'equilibrium' than individualised experience if that makes sense.


Makes sense in the context that I've read other NDErs describe this in a similar way in that, coming back into the body was tough to assimiliate at first because the body/mind was a limited version of what they were previously experiencing in their NDE. Then again maybe that's not what you're saying here.

Now in the physical world we need physical and emotional and intellectual 'insulators' in order that we know the full capacity in experiencing the individual 'elements' of stuff that is otherwise blended in equilibrium, so 'boundaries' are not a bad thing - (sometimes I wish mine were 'thicker' :wink: ) but over enforcing them can create as much imbalance as under enforcing them. Imagine if we were all like energetic jelly all just melting over each other ---sticky mess!!


Wow, this is heavy and beautifully expressed as well. And this pretty much answers the last question I had in the last post about why the physical world we experience appears the way it does in the context of such 'perceived' separation/boundaries. There would essentially be no 'coming home' if the game board of life was not set up in this manner. There can be no perspectives in a world without perceived separation/form. Everything would merely 'just be' and while that IS already, the way everything already is at its core, the purpose of the game in the context of physicality (as I see it) is to see through those boundaries of perceived limitation/separation/unconsciousness to realize itself/ourself that everything....already.....merely is.....'JUST IS'....when perceived through the light of clear unconditional love, which is all there is. It all makes beautiful sense when you approach it this way.


You can see the 'fear' and over insulating that occurs for some who experience extreme things and become 'bitter and twisted'.


absolutely and I've been there myself and still climbing out of that hole in the process.

Using this awareness can be immensely powerful, incredibly so. Even in physical 'harmonising' 'balancing', Tai chi uses it, Taekwondo uses it, Aikido uses it - I dare say the ideas of the 'Peaceful Warrior' uses it. My Granny used to use it too and could 'channel' it to heal blockages and imbalances of energy in the body, so do other energy healers I have known, and been grateful to have been healed by. The interesting thing with them is - no degrees, no 'credit' to them, no 'money' changing hands its all about 'allowing' the energy to flow through them - the energy is intelligent energy, but not in the way we think of intelligence - it is 'intuitive' intelligence. Again in 'intuitive' and 'creative' pursuits it's this energy flowing through us unbridled - it never does harm, never. Only fear can do that. Fear can arise in tandem with it (that sense of wanting to pee your pants) but they are different.


One of the things that REALLY REALLY intrigues me about this whole thing is 'healing'. I've had a GI condition which for about 8 or 9 years which is now in remission for about a year, and when I started on the path of spirituality (even prior to my encounter with 'non-duality), I was thinking in terms of 100 percent physical healing....as in....diet alone until I realized rather recently that healing encompasses so much more emotionally and spiritually and energetically that I am still trying to wrap my head around to understand.

Anita Moorjani (spelling?) talks about healing in her NDE from cancer and I read the link that WW posted in that other thread you linked to me. She talks a lot about how if you have a disease in the body, even curing it physically, will not remove the negative energy surrounding it. Maybe you can shed some light (if you want). Does this merely mean aligning with our source in the context of exactly as you indicate 'choosing love over fear'? That's basically how I see it. If all physicality is merely a product of energy 'slowed down', then any condition can should be able to healed beyond physical means (to an extent)
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 am

Again E2B I am smiling all over this - what a gorgeous symphony we're creating here, what a wonderful chapter in a book of our lives, thank you (bows).

I just finished reading PoN for the first time last week. (Previously read ANE multiple times, but never finished PoN)I probably shouldn't publicly admit that on an ET forum :lol:, but it was such a breath of fresh air to read his book this time around with a completely different understanding. Quite enlightening to say the least. Now, back to what you say here. I love the way you reference this to what you say here below....

I too read ANE before PON, and yes there is wonderful clarity in it if you're on the same 'frequency' with it, or at least appreciating it without resistance, even in / to the questions it gives birth to.

This is utterly beautiful. Exactly how Nanci describes it as well in her book (sorry to keep referencing her, but relating it to her book that I'm reading now).

No apologies needed. Sighclone here is a friend of Nanci's and something about the 'music' that I was singing when I first started discussing these things here also reminded him of Nanci. I looked briefly at her website and felt she 'gets it'. What I also noticed though is that she straddles it with the physical, commercial etc world more 'smoothly' than do I. I figure it's a cultural difference, in the way that I mentioned about the energy healers I've known, it's not 'mine' to use, but I am 'its' to allow, if that makes sense. I already know I haven't explained that well. I see even people like Anthony Robbins being the 'hole in the flute' brilliantly, he brings an energy to people and 'maintains' the frequency until they feel comfortable at the new frequency and it's really quite beautiful to watch. At the same time, so do musicians as you mention - Barbra Streisand's voice is like manna to me, as are many many others - when the unforced purity of it is just unleashed --- manna!!

I do 'associate' the bass notes with fear energies arising and sometimes they can be absolutely exquisite in sharing 'feelings', there would be no symphony without them (and no horror movies either :wink: ). We truly do have the whole 'range' with which to play across, and at all tempos as well. In my own music career I was blessed to be doing harmonising lessons with a wonderful teacher who taught us to find the notes as they resonated on our facial-cranial structure, - literally vibrating, and in doing so when we needed a particular note we would just 'think' it to that place, feed it the energy to there and hit it perfectly. It's a bit of a party trick now along with a 'timing' exercise we used to randomly practice and some muso's have tuned their instruments to it, and then tested it against mechanical 'tuners' and been amazed at how accurate it is. The start of Alana Myles' Black Velvet - and the bass throughout it, just melts me to yum-heaven :wink:

.... and what Nanci indicates in her book in the sense that those living from a more 'conscious' perspective (so to speak, meaning not living from fear/ego) have raised their vibrational frequency (so to speak) much higher to align with Source as in the pure unconditional love that already 'is', than those who are still living from anger, fear, hatred,....basically ego, etc.

Well yes, we can 'play' knowingly with the whole range. In some ways it's how sadness can be genuinely sweet, anger just a 'no thank you', and how 'discord' is a noticeable 'clang' whereas misunderstanding is just like a 'wrong chord'. Again if you watch the likes of Anthony Robbins use it, it's incredibly powerful. Or the Dalai Lama, or even Neale Donald Walsch who is much less 'confident' and surrounds it, clothes it in humility and self effacing humour. I think I've said before Don Miguel Ruiz was an unknown surprise for me and I just disappeared so 'in tune' were we - he only had to express in full glorious harmony that 'love, is the equilibrium of gratitude & generosity' and I was gone, seriously I'd been taking notes over two days of a conference pages and pages. I recorded that and there is no other thing in my notebook from his presentation. Gone.
There is, as with all things, for me, an absolute responsibility that comes with it, and with learning to use it. I was held absolutely safe with DMR. And honesty as NDW says, is absolutely the highest form of love. Sometimes watching those who abuse power shudders me to my core, when they tell lies that clang it's almost - ---- not almost it is, physically, emotionally, psychologically violent, like an assault to the senses.

You questioned the notion of 'Source' in one of the last posts in this thread, but you're describing it so perfectly well right here. I don't see Source as a separate 'deity', more along the lines of what you indicate here. It's mere 'being' composed of all of the collective perspectives of everything imaginable which constitutes this one infinite energy source/awareness.

:D Yes, I agree. Sorry, my sensitivity is 'that' acute that the capital 'S' kind of skews it, kind of adds a 'difference', a separation that 'source' does not. But I do understand that's just perspective and now that we know we're talking about the same thing I can just 'translate' it when you use it :wink: 'god' is for me everything, and I kind of 'translate' that and see if it fits the notion being espoused when it's used.

Makes sense in the context that I've read other NDErs describe this in a similar way in that, coming back into the body was tough to assimiliate at first because the body/mind was a limited version of what they were previously experiencing in their NDE. Then again maybe that's not what you're saying here.

Yes and no to what I was saying, the body sure is 'clunky' and 'primitive' (and heavy!!) in its design, but at the same time incredibly, beautifully intricate in its workings. I described it to PMH Atwater once like someone dropped a big, wet, heavy coat over me, not just over me, but over a skeleton that I then had to make work with this big, wet, heavy overcoat on it, with awareness of the intracies of muscle and nerves and sinew and bone all grating together and combining efforts just to make a little finger move, it was pathetic and brilliant at the same time. She pealed with laughter and said it was the best description she'd ever heard - I think she may have quoted it in the Big Book of nde's, or another of her books, I know she asked my permission to use it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Book-Near ... 1571745475

So that's the 'physical' level, but the energetic awareness level, it was acutely aware of all that going on in my body, but still somewhat unconfined just to my body. A much wider awareness. I can both stay in my body and run along the multiple spiderweb threads simultaneously if that makes sense (I never know what will or won't make sense without the experience). In trying to describe now, I wonder if people thought I was ADD at that time :wink:

I have an absolute empathy for babies coming into their awareness in their bodies, I just do. I watch them and know when they're not quite here yet, when they haven't quite integrated the energy into the physical. Some may think it a terrible thing for me to say, but I sometimes wonder if cot death, or sudden infant death syndrome isn't just this 'failure to reintegrate' at some point when the energy is not totally consumed by the physical. I tend not to overwhelm babies with physical stimuli in the early days, keeping a calm, loving 'safe' energy for them so that they can explore the physical gently.

I'm also aware that animals have a different frequency range and 'depth of field' and I'm as respectful (most of the time, we all have brain farts) to them as well.

As powerful as it is, this awareness, it's also incredibly humble, meek (in a way that most would not perceive me on the outside :wink: ). The beautiful saying in the bible that 'the meek will inherit the world' is resonantly true, I have 'inherited the world' and so have many of my ilk and it humbles us, slays us completely. Many do not see, do not know, do not experience and do not relate with the world - this amazing, beautiful presentation of 'differences' and 'nuances'. My Granny would say there's none so blind as those that will not see, and none so deaf as those that will not hear. It's not the things are not there to be seen and be heard, or even that for the most part we have a wider capacity than we use, it's often more whether we are willing to see and hear.

It's why when folks come to this awareness the world is brighter, lighter, more beautiful than they ever realised 'real - ised' made real in their senses, in their appreciation.

I'm going to put my responses about the healing aspects in another post, or I will be writing a book in this one :wink:
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:33 am

One of the things that REALLY REALLY intrigues me about this whole thing is 'healing'. I've had a GI condition which for about 8 or 9 years which is now in remission for about a year, and when I started on the path of spirituality (even prior to my encounter with 'non-duality), I was thinking in terms of 100 percent physical healing....as in....diet alone until I realized rather recently that healing encompasses so much more emotionally and spiritually and energetically that I am still trying to wrap my head around to understand.

Anita Moorjani (spelling?) talks about healing in her NDE from cancer and I read the link that WW posted in that other thread you linked to me. She talks a lot about how if you have a disease in the body, even curing it physically, will not remove the negative energy surrounding it. Maybe you can shed some light (if you want). Does this merely mean aligning with our source in the context of exactly as you indicate 'choosing love over fear'? That's basically how I see it. If all physicality is merely a product of energy 'slowed down', then any condition can should be able to healed beyond physical means (to an extent)

Yes, Yes, and Yes/Maybe :D

If I may say for you - suggesting, not prescribing - kind of an accumulation of my 'wisdom' - appreciating your physical system and the energy matter that we put into it, genuinely awarely in gratitude and generosity be 'mindful' of the various interactions occurring. The simple notion of 'saying grace' before we feed our bodies - assaulting them in a way, bombarding them with all these different energy compositions - it's not so much about taste and nutrition as it is about integrating all the elements as peacefully, respectfully, as we can, recognising that some things do 'more harm than good', and may be too energetically incompatible for either the entire system, or delicate parts of it. Eating is an act of grace, as much as it is an act of biology. Just as we'd 'insulate' or 'eliminate' our experiences of other energetic influences, we can be mindful of the relative impacts of food stuffs and other external factors - how 'capable' our system is in coping with the 'assault' 'inundation' of simple and complex energies at any given time. What is okay when our bodies are fully fit, is far different to when they are compromised, even by stress or distraction.

This is as much in my wisdom watching and helping my daughter live healthily as much as she can with type one diabetes after her body mistook insulin as an unhelpful invader and destroyed her capacity to produce it naturally. Balancing the nutrition and energy inflow-outflow and understanding the 'tempo' of energy release and complexity, and the 'side effects' of the whole process and internal and external factors (stress, other illnesses, physical activity etc) has been a study in itself.

So it is both diet and attitude in a sense.

When the body is overwhelmed, just as we do as a whole, it can 'constrict' its awareness, capacity and willingness to process 'energy stuff' tying us up in knots, or it can overbalance and allow too much 'latitude' in its processing, holding the 'negative influences' to itself.

As far as my Granny's healing - I had huge tonsils as a child, sensitive-reactive to bacteria that would accumulate and cause tonsillitis. She had when she was healing, one hot hand and one cold hand and would 'sense' imbalances and somehow 'restore' them to balance, either unblock them, untangle them, or slow and calm over-reactive responses. She also had an interesting notion of something being either 'hurt' or 'sore' or if you were really in a mess 'hurt-sore' combined. It mattered that she understood the difference and healed both.

It was just a nuance of language that we used without me really understanding it in isolation until I thought about it as an adult. I think, only because I can't say for sure that I 'know', but I think in unpacking different incidents, that 'hurt' was emotional energy 'stuff' our emotional reaction to a thing, and 'sore' was physical energy stuff, the physical reaction to a thing, and each could impact the other. So if you've got a head-ache for a physical reason yes it will be 'sore', but if you emotionally react to that pain, that will add 'hurt' - if you think about 'hurt' it's where our expectation differs from our reality - it hurts to think about it - the pain is not in that.. it manifests elsewhere. So if you are 'hurt' emotionally that can create physical pain and distort the flow of energy in the physical body - thinking about an emotional hurt can cause a headache as the energy 'stagnates' in one area.

So she would first determine if the cause was hurt or sore, or if both which was influencing which, and she would heal - ease both. More often than not there were elements of both. Resistance on the emotional level impacts the 'flow' on the physical level.

So culturally I went from that 'understanding' and 'care' that would see me suffer very little from the physical manifestation / imbalance - short time frame (maybe one more day) of 'upset' and no side effects to her healing; to westernised attack with drugs culture - antibiotics were an alien attack on my body, not just on the bacteria present. Once my body figured out what was causing this additional 'upset' this 'war' on my tonsils it said ...stuff that.... :wink: I quickly 'grew' allergic reactions - the first was vomiting and blacking out after a penicillin injection. The effects was like a war in my body, assault and counter-assault, healing took much longer (usually at least two courses -- weeks --- of antibiotics) and the side effects were 'unsettling' to say the least. I don't 'shun' modern medicine, but I've become over time much more discerning about it. It amazes me sometimes that the cure can be worse than the illness, and that some have absolutely no bearing on the actual 'cause', only treating isolated symptoms. Eventually because 'chemical' healing became too ridiculous, they decided to remove my tonsils. I like my body parts - I figure if we didn't need parts of it they wouldn't be there, but there you go, it happened. My recovery was hampered more in 'hurt' than in 'sore' and nobody seemed to understand this take it into account.

The rest of my 'adventures' and 'experiences' with energy healers would take a book to share. But whether my Granny, whether beautiful, Muslim, Indonesian 'brothers' that came into my life and truly astounded me with their humility and saved my life when modern medicine couldn't, whether a Dutch man who'd hidden out the war in Indonesia and learned from astute villagers there, who saved my daughter when modern medicine couldn't even diagnose her correctly and given up on her, whether a French man I know who healed his own cancer as Anita did (verifiably), whether its animals of other species who also have awareness, capacity and some - willingness, it's all the same, it's all respectful awareness of, and working with the energy in motion. Identifying cause and effect as a natural consequence and working with it, not against it, to rebalance.

It's acute grace, really acute grace - not making enemy, obstacle or means to an end of the 'imbalance' --- whether they are from physical incompatibility or natural 'disturbance' and consequence (sore); or emotional stagnation (hurt) in nature, many people do not even realise how they sometimes hold imbalances to themselves in order to gain the attention that their ego craves or to prove 'right' to them self, or as a means to an end in justifying some of their choices, or in not forgiving themselves and others for things past.

Like the other aspects of awareness they can and have been demonised or arrogantly dismissed, and the folly of that is also harmful in consequence.

I think it's material in cultural understandings. Many of the indigenous peoples have not let go of the basic understanding that came with us into the physical form that assists to be in it in harmony.

I'm not saying illness, disease, imbalances - sores and hurts - will not arise, I'm just saying it's viewed and treated 'differently' when it does, as it does, by those who understand energy in motion.

Can I ask E2B, did your 'remission' start when you stopped resisting it? Either from 'giving up' or from accepting it?
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Phil2 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:16 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
I think it's material in cultural understandings. Many of the indigenous peoples have not let go of the basic understanding that came with us into the physical form that assists to be in it in harmony.



Hello Jen,

I think you probably have many interesting things to say ... but I must confess two things about your posts in this forum:

- the first one is that I have huge difficulties to understand most of what you say, eg. this sentence above ... in this sentence do you mean "Many indegenous peoples still know how to live in harmony with their body" ?

- the second one is that your posts are generally so long and lacking structure, that one does not perceive the essence of it, your key message ...

hence the net result is that I generally 'skip' your posts ... and I feel sorry for that, because I think I miss something and there is some kind of unability for me to communicate with you ... and I don't think it comes from my poor mastery of the English language (which is true as I am French-speaking), because I don't have such problems with other posters ...

However if your way to say what you have to say suits you (and maybe some other participants here too), well it's ok for me ... still I'd like to be able to better communicate with you ...

:)
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:21 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
If I may say for you - suggesting, not prescribing - kind of an accumulation of my 'wisdom' - appreciating your physical system and the energy matter that we put into it, genuinely awarely in gratitude and generosity be 'mindful' of the various interactions occurring. The simple notion of 'saying grace' before we feed our bodies - assaulting them in a way, bombarding them with all these different energy compositions - it's not so much about taste and nutrition as it is about integrating all the elements as peacefully, respectfully, as we can, recognising that some things do 'more harm than good', and may be too energetically incompatible for either the entire system, or delicate parts of it. Eating is an act of grace, as much as it is an act of biology. Just as we'd 'insulate' or 'eliminate' our experiences of other energetic influences, we can be mindful of the relative impacts of food stuffs and other external factors - how 'capable' our system is in coping with the 'assault' 'inundation' of simple and complex energies at any given time. What is okay when our bodies are fully fit, is far different to when they are compromised, even by stress or distraction.

This is as much in my wisdom watching and helping my daughter live healthily as much as she can with type one diabetes after her body mistook insulin as an unhelpful invader and destroyed her capacity to produce it naturally. Balancing the nutrition and energy inflow-outflow and understanding the 'tempo' of energy release and complexity, and the 'side effects' of the whole process and internal and external factors (stress, other illnesses, physical activity etc) has been a study in itself.

So it is both diet and attitude in a sense.


This makes much sense to me. Thank you Jen for this. Very nicely said.

Resistance on the emotional level impacts the 'flow' on the physical level.

I've been learning that recently and I would most certainly agree with this.

So culturally I went from that 'understanding' and 'care' that would see me suffer very little from the physical manifestation / imbalance - short time frame (maybe one more day) of 'upset' and no side effects to her healing; to westernised attack with drugs culture - antibiotics were an alien attack on my body, not just on the bacteria present. Once my body figured out what was causing this additional 'upset' this 'war' on my tonsils it said ...stuff that.... :wink: I quickly 'grew' allergic reactions - the first was vomiting and blacking out after a penicillin injection. The effects was like a war in my body, assault and counter-assault, healing took much longer (usually at least two courses -- weeks --- of antibiotics) and the side effects were 'unsettling' to say the least. I don't 'shun' modern medicine, but I've become over time much more discerning about it. It amazes me sometimes that the cure can be worse than the illness, and that some have absolutely no bearing on the actual 'cause', only treating isolated symptoms. Eventually because 'chemical' healing became too ridiculous, they decided to remove my tonsils. I like my body parts - I figure if we didn't need parts of it they wouldn't be there, but there you go, it happened. My recovery was hampered more in 'hurt' than in 'sore' and nobody seemed to understand this take it into account.


Antibiotics do indeed rage war on the body. Hence the name....anti-life :D

The rest of my 'adventures' and 'experiences' with energy healers would take a book to share. But whether my Granny, whether beautiful, Muslim, Indonesian 'brothers' that came into my life and truly astounded me with their humility and saved my life when modern medicine couldn't, whether a Dutch man who'd hidden out the war in Indonesia and learned from astute villagers there, who saved my daughter when modern medicine couldn't even diagnose her correctly and given up on her, whether a French man I know who healed his own cancer as Anita did (verifiably), whether its animals of other species who also have awareness, capacity and some - willingness, it's all the same, it's all respectful awareness of, and working with the energy in motion. Identifying cause and effect as a natural consequence and working with it, not against it, to rebalance.


There's that term again....cause and effect. Sounds like a key theme to our existence in physicality. I remember reading a bit last year of Conversations with God online and there's a reference of relationships in how everything within this physical universe is in relation to something else. I wonder if that's what's meant by cause and effect as one of the perhaps, purposes. How everything we do essentially affects something else. Sounds like some in the 'life review process' are getting this take.

I'm not saying illness, disease, imbalances - sores and hurts - will not arise, I'm just saying it's viewed and treated 'differently' when it does, as it does, by those who understand energy in motion.

Can I ask E2B, did your 'remission' start when you stopped resisting it? Either from 'giving up' or from accepting it?


Totally. the acceptance to life in general and just seeing through the resistance is liberation for me. The remission came full circle when I finally committed to dietary changes that my body needed and also when I finally stopped 'fighting' (mentally) the illness in my body and accepted that it was there. I do think there's a huge physical aspect to illness as well. But, I don't think any physical illness can be cured with resistance. I utilize my own experience as an example as someone who was filled with anxiety and probably a lot of resistance for so many years and stuck in my own belief patterns of fear which I think led to a lot of health problems I later developed.

When I just accept and allow 'all that is' to merely 'be as is' is completely free and liberating for me. To make conscious my fears and unconscious belief patterns and resistance to life in general, merely by seeing them in a conscious light is freedom from them. To see how so much of my life is based on those conditioned patterns and how you can sometimes chuckle at it and seeing how I don't have to live life from that place of 'fear'. I wouldn't have been able to see this if I never read ANE which really changed my life. So, I think it all gets tied in together. Never tried energy healing, but you mention it above and maybe I'll give it a shot though I really don't understand it.
Last edited by Enlightened2B on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:33 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:No apologies needed. Sighclone here is a friend of Nanci's


Wow, didn't know that. That's really cool

The start of Alana Myles' Black Velvet - and the bass throughout it, just melts me to yum-heaven :wink:


It does have a cool bass line. Never knew who sang that song until I just checked it out heh.

Yes and no to what I was saying, the body sure is 'clunky' and 'primitive' (and heavy!!) in its design, but at the same time incredibly, beautifully intricate in its workings. I described it to PMH Atwater once like someone dropped a big, wet, heavy coat over me, not just over me, but over a skeleton that I then had to make work with this big, wet, heavy overcoat on it, with awareness of the intracies of muscle and nerves and sinew and bone all grating together and combining efforts just to make a little finger move, it was pathetic and brilliant at the same time. She pealed with laughter and said it was the best description she'd ever heard - I think she may have quoted it in the Big Book of nde's, or another of her books, I know she asked my permission to use it. http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Book-Near ... 1571745475


I'm going to purchase this book. I've watched a few interviews with her. Wow, that woman is filled with energy! ha.

o that's the 'physical' level, but the energetic awareness level, it was acutely aware of all that going on in my body, but still somewhat unconfined just to my body. A much wider awareness. I can both stay in my body and run along the multiple spiderweb threads simultaneously if that makes sense (I never know what will or won't make sense without the experience). In trying to describe now, I wonder if people thought I was ADD at that time :wink:


I have a vague idea of what you're saying, granted I can't fully grasp it since my mind tries to conceptualize everything.

The beautiful saying in the bible that 'the meek will inherit the world' is resonantly true, I have 'inherited the world' and so have many of my ilk and it humbles us, slays us completely. Many do not see, do not know, do not experience and do not relate with the world - this amazing, beautiful presentation of 'differences' and 'nuances'. My Granny would say there's none so blind as those that will not see, and none so deaf as those that will not hear. It's not the things are not there to be seen and be heard, or even that for the most part we have a wider capacity than we use, it's often more whether we are willing to see and hear.

It's why when folks come to this awareness the world is brighter, lighter, more beautiful than they ever realised 'real - ised' made real in their senses, in their appreciation.


Very nicely said and that's how I interpret the line as well. Even the simple awakening that we can experience in physical form without going out of our bodies can really incorporate this perspective.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Sighclone » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:22 am

Lovely thread. Another excellent book which has a chapter on healing is called "The Ecstasy of Surrender" by Judith Orloff, MD, a psychiatrist. She lists PON as one of her important references and nails many points through out the book, plus is very self-effacing. Chapter 10 is on healing through surrender. This appears to be a self-help book, but is mostly spiritual. She studies with a Taoist, had many Buddhist references. Highly recommended.

http://www.amazon.com/Ecstasy-Surrender ... 1781804206

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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:11 am

Thanks Andy for the recommendation. Just checked it out on amazon. Looks like an interesting book and something that I might find helpful. I'll add it to my list.
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Re: Experience of awareness in deep dreamless sleep

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:35 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:

I think it's material in cultural understandings. Many of the indigenous peoples have not let go of the basic understanding that came with us into the physical form that assists to be in it in harmony.


Phil said: in this sentence do you mean "Many indegenous peoples still know how to live in harmony with their body" ?

No, not really Phil, I mean that these cultures still support understanding how everything is intertwined and interacting - the 'basic understanding'. Not just the individual body, but with others, and other species, and with our environment. If one does not have this understanding then it's harder to be in harmony with everything that might interact and impact upon us.


- the second one is that your posts are generally so long and lacking structure, that one does not perceive the essence of it, your key message ...

Yes they may be long, and they may go off in tangents if I perceive and share multiple perspectives or layers of a 'thing'. It just is.

Phil said: However if your way to say what you have to say suits you (and maybe some other participants here too), well it's ok for me ... still I'd like to be able to better communicate with you ...

And me you Phil :D
I'm happy to have you quote as you did and give your impression and ask for clarification, that's what real communication is all about, sharing our understanding of perspectives.

It's funny I have a stack of cards on my desk, little quotes from The Fifth Agreement by Don Miguel Ruiz.

The one that is on top at the moment says -
I am responsible for what I say, but I am not responsible for what people understand.
Other people are responsible for what they understand.
They are the ones who give meaning to every word they hear (or read)


If we were one on one having a conversation that's much easier to notice, and clarify. We do what we can in this medium.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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