Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:52 pm

Rob X wrote:We can be participating in seemingly dualistic activities and simply have a felt-sense recognition that this too - is nothing other than the spontaneous happening of the moment. That is what I would call witnessing. There is not me and activity - there is simply THIS as it presents itself. This is how I understand it but it may differ from other definitions. This is what Ramana calls the natural state.

Still -- and I'm not trying to be nitpicky (though it does seem to come naturally for me ;-) ) -- any sense of meta-knowing is a kind of dualism, right? If you eat ... and know that you are eating ... there is a layer of separation that is not present if you simply are 100% with eating. Does a hawk sitting on a high branch scanning the landscape for prey (or whatever) have any meta-sense of this scanning? This is what seems like the natural state to me, being 100% with whatever happens to be happening, no separation or observation or witnessing.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby Rob X » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:28 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Rob X wrote:We can be participating in seemingly dualistic activities and simply have a felt-sense recognition that this too - is nothing other than the spontaneous happening of the moment. That is what I would call witnessing. There is not me and activity - there is simply THIS as it presents itself. This is how I understand it but it may differ from other definitions. This is what Ramana calls the natural state.

Still -- and I'm not trying to be nitpicky (though it does seem to come naturally for me ;-) ) -- any sense of meta-knowing is a kind of dualism, right? If you eat ... and know that you are eating ... there is a layer of separation that is not present if you simply are 100% with eating. Does a hawk sitting on a high branch scanning the landscape for prey (or whatever) have any meta-sense of this scanning? This is what seems like the natural state to me, being 100% with whatever happens to be happening, no separation or observation or witnessing.


Yes, I agree. There is not 'me' observing/witnessing an object, there is simply THIS as it presents itself. Like I say, I'm not a user of the term (witnessing) but it's my understanding that some (certainly Balsekar) use the term to describe this sense of no separation (there's no witness and witnessed - simply witnessing.) Perhaps it's a poor designation since, as you point out, it can imply a dualism.
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:54 pm

Witnessing does imply dualism and is not a "final" or complete awakening. I think it serves only to help some people who are beginning to become aware of themselves as an entity, be it egoic or personality or whatever. I'm speaking of something different than witnessing a football game.

rach, That's an interesting example of a raptor who may or may not have a "meta-sense" of scanning. I don't know about the raptor, but the "meta-ness" of full Realization, of full Unity Consciousness is very valid. When subject and object dissolve and there is just Presence, and not even a "person" present, the sense is very "meta."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby Rob X » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:11 pm

Sighclone wrote:Witnessing does imply dualism and is not a "final" or complete awakening. I think it serves only to help some people who are beginning to become aware of themselves as an entity, be it egoic or personality or whatever. I'm speaking of something different than witnessing a football game.


Okay, Andy. I think that we have a slightly differing interpretation of it. Mine is loosely based on what I remember from Balsekar. What you are suggesting sounds closer to being mindful in my vocabulary - but I'm sure it can be referred to as witnessing too. No wonder Rach is getting a bit confused. :D
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:19 pm

Confusion is my middle name.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:36 pm

Sighclone wrote:When subject and object dissolve and there is just Presence, and not even a "person" present, the sense is very "meta."

But, if the subject/object dissolution is full, there is no one to perceive a meta-ness. I'm going on the definition that "meta" is self reference.

Could it be we're reaching the limit of the effectiveness of words?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:41 pm

Rob X wrote:There is not 'me' observing/witnessing an object, there is simply THIS as it presents itself.

Yes!
Perhaps it's a poor designation since, as you point out, it can imply a dualism.

It definitely does for me. All sorts of well-established dualistic-believing neural pathways engage when I hear witness, but not when I hear this.

So it's largely a question of my conditioning. (But what isn't in my little perception of reality?)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:33 pm

Yeah, we are trying to count angels. I don't always exist in Sat-chit-ananda. But sometimes my experiences are deeper than others. And then there is "in reflection" i.e. looking back at past experiences that were pretty much in Unity. (...as opposed to thinking about the past and typing...)

This is from a commentator on Balsekar's Witness, but does align with my memories of his original works:

"The moment one fully understands, one is reduced to non-volitional living, the noumenal living. This experiencing would lead to a total awakening, at which point one would recognise that one’s whole life is a waking dream. What is left is merely a witnessing by consciousness.

This non-volitional witnessing of all that happens without judgement arises together with a non-objective relationship both to oneself and to others. That means there is no thought of oneself as an object of any kind physical or psychic. This naturally results in a non-objective relationship to others. It also means that all phenomena, sentient or insentient, are no more regarded as objects. There is now an instant apperception that the subject (oneself) and the supposed objects (others) are simply appearances. Ignorance is at once eliminated. It also means that our true nature is recognised. How does a sage live his life? He doesn’t. Life happens to him. He goes through his routine chores as a witness. He witnesses his reactions when reading the newspapers and watching the television. He witnesses life happening through his particular body-mind organism and witnesses the various emotions arising when coming in contact with other body-mind organisms."

So there can be a witness, I guess, to "one's true nature." (which would include "meta-ness") -- oohhh these awful words....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby runstrails » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:48 am

Great to see you Andy, Rach and Robx!

According to traditional Vedanta, the witness business is relatively straight forward:

When the mind (subtle body) realizes that its true nature is awareness (and yes, self-realization happens in the much maligned mind :wink: , then the mind can identify with awareness and become a witness of the jiva (person/ego) and all that is happening in the jiva’s life. This is the state in which the mind acts as an ‘experiencing witness’.

However, the realized mind knows that the experiencing witness is ultimately illumined by the impersonal, non-experiencing witness or pure awareness.
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby Rob X » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:54 pm

runstrails wrote:Great to see you Andy, Rach and Robx!

According to traditional Vedanta, the witness business is relatively straight forward:

When the mind (subtle body) realizes that its true nature is awareness (and yes, self-realization happens in the much maligned mind :wink: , then the mind can identify with awareness and become a witness of the jiva (person/ego) and all that is happening in the jiva’s life. This is the state in which the mind acts as an ‘experiencing witness’.

However, the realized mind knows that the experiencing witness is ultimately illumined by the impersonal, non-experiencing witness or pure awareness.


Hi RT. The 'non-experiencing witness' is closer to how Balsekar uses the term - this might account for the slight discrepancy here, thanks.

I've found on my travels that the assertion that 'realisation happens in the mind' can be quite controversial (though not to me.) I reckon that that's a topic waiting to happen. :wink:
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:45 pm

runstrails wrote:Great to see you Andy, Rach and Robx!

Yay: runstrails in town!

According to traditional Vedanta, the witness business is relatively straight forward:

When the mind (subtle body) realizes that its true nature is awareness (and yes, self-realization happens in the much maligned mind :wink: , then the mind can identify with awareness and become a witness of the jiva (person/ego) and all that is happening in the jiva’s life. This is the state in which the mind acts as an ‘experiencing witness’.

However, the realized mind knows that the experiencing witness is ultimately illumined by the impersonal, non-experiencing witness or pure awareness.

To be honest, I don't grok this explanation. I could reason it out, point by point ... but it would become a bit clinical I think.

Could you try again, runstrails? Pretend you're talking to a (somewhat precocious) child. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:50 pm

> Sighclone: noumenal living ...

What a fabulous term! I love it! But what does it mean ... ? I mean I understand noumena, as Kant used it: phenomena (what we can see/know), noumena (what's really there). But what is noumenal living? I can guess, but I'd rather know fer sure.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby runstrails » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:45 am

Rob X wrote: I've found on my travels that the assertion that 'realisation happens in the mind' can be quite controversial (though not to me.) I reckon that that's a topic waiting to happen


Ha! Ha! You are most correct, Rob. Most western neo-advaita and eastern yogic traditions suggest that enlightenment is a special state to be achieved. And that this state is 'beyond the mind'. This keeps seekers seeking to achieve such a state, and if achieved, then to hold on to it. I should know, I kept looking for special states and special ways to feel.

However, traditional vedanta (Dayanada, Ramana etc) is very clear. Self-realization or self-knowledge is an understanding that happens in the intellect. In fact, a highly refined and discriminative intellect is one of the requirements for vedantic study. One needs to be able to understand the notion of satya (fundamental existence) and mithya (temporary reality). When one gets it, then there is no need for transcendental states. When this understanding is clear---then the intellect primarily identifies with awareness (or fundamental reality) resulting in moksha (or freedom from the trappings of everyday anxieties or suffering).

Given that the fundamental reality of our existence is not separate from our everyday, ordinary awareness, no transcendental states are needed to reach it. It is your nature. All that is needed is an understanding of this.

But I realize that I'm not going to convince any one on a Tolle forum that the intellect is your best ally not your enemy :D.
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby runstrails » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:47 am

Rm wrote: Could you try again, runstrails? Pretend you're talking to a (somewhat precocious) child. :-)


ha! ha! rM--I love your precociousness! How would I try to convey the essence of vedanta into a post. I'll think on it for a day or two and give it a shot. Hope you are well!
runstrails
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

Postby rachMiel » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:09 pm

runstrails,

What I specifically don't understand from your previous message is how witnessing is not an act of duality. There is a witness, and that which is witnessed (jiva, vyavahara, etc.). Two, not one. Right?

If witnessing *is* an act of duality ... how does this jibe with a strictly nondual understanding of reality like Advaita? Is the idea that one witnesses to learn about that which is witnessed, and eventually the witness and the witnessed merge into one?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2404
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

PreviousNext

Return to Personal Experiences

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest