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Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:21 pm
by Sighclone
Hi rt! - I've moved over to rob x's new topic also...here; viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13573

Andy

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:50 am
by runstrails
Thanks, Andy. Sorry I did not mean to derail the thread. But it seems to be my special talent :wink:.
rM wrote: runstrails,

What I specifically don't understand from your previous message is how witnessing is not an act of duality. There is a witness, and that which is witnessed (jiva, vyavahara, etc.). Two, not one. Right?

If witnessing *is* an act of duality ... how does this jibe with a strictly nondual understanding of reality like Advaita? Is the idea that one witnesses to learn about that which is witnessed, and eventually the witness and the witnessed merge into one?


Hi rM,
Great question. Mithya (or temporary reality) is indeed a duality. So the witnessing mind and the witnessed jagat (world) are indeed in apparent duality.

However, the realized mind also knows that the entire apparent duality (i.e., the manifested universe) is not separate from the awareness of it. That is, there can be no existence (or non-existence) without awareness. And that this impersonal, eternal, ever-present, self-effulgent, non-dual awareness is the ultimate 'witness' or light within which the world of apparent duality unfolds.

For example, if I asked you to identify with the sun for a day (and not rM)---you would simply stand back and witness everything that the sun illuminates (including rM doing this and that). This is the natural witness state that also occurs when the intellect knows that it's true identity is the impersonal, eternal awareness which illuminates the entire world.It stands back and enjoys the show!

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:09 am
by rachMiel
Thanks, that's clearer, I think I understand what you mean now.

To be enlightened per Advaita is to know with certainty that brahman is the one true existent, and that atman = brahman.

You seem to have no trouble with this. I do. The more I contemplate the true nature of things, the more convinced I am that it is ultimately unknowable, the mystery. So I do my best to live with this unknowing.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:10 am
by Sighclone
Well, rt, derailing is just fine with me. Topics morph, leaves grow and die, etc. The other topic is more about the intellect. But this one remains about witnessing, part of my original post. I like the idea of infinite perspectives here. When little me dissolves, all options are open; the experience may not be separate from the experiencer. I've had a few moments of that -- pretty cool and yet, at the time, absent a reference frame, pretty new and startling...had to stop my car. I still think that so long as we bump around as "people" in a "society" with family and friends and workplaces, that we are required to edit our responses to suit the conventions of the social interactions we are in. We may feel and experience perfect unity, but still stop at red lights. At retreats and satsangs, there are times to "just Be" - the mind wanders and settles down. I visit an advanced Reiki master and at a recent session, I suddenly switched into lucid dreaming, and my usual body twitches just stopped. We had a laugh after the session.

We conflate Mindfulness, Consciousness, Awakening, Source, Being, etc. and sometimes lose the distinctions. The best we can achieve with words is some sort of poetic pointer. It is so easy to get bogged down with precise definitions, but Witness implies a witnesser, and having qualified that that entity was really not Self, I hope I was clear.

Andy

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:20 am
by runstrails
rM said: To be enlightened per Advaita is to know with certainty that brahman is the one true existent, and that atman = brahman.

You seem to have no trouble with this. I do. The more I contemplate the true nature of things, the more convinced I am that it is ultimately unknowable, the mystery. So I do my best to live with this unknowing.


Hi rM,

Vedanta does acknowledge the mystery. The only adjectives it uses to define Brahman are: Sat (existence), chit (consciousness), ananta (eternal). That reality exists, is conscious, and is eternal, I don't think can be argued. Beyond that we cannot know.

But I wish you well as you explore this fundamental mystery :D.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:26 am
by runstrails
Andy wrote: I still think that so long as we bump around as "people" in a "society" with family and friends and workplaces, that we are required to edit our responses to suit the conventions of the social interactions we are in. We may feel and experience perfect unity, but still stop at red lights. At retreats and satsangs, there are times to "just Be" - the mind wanders and settles down. I visit an advanced Reiki master and at a recent session, I suddenly switched into lucid dreaming, and my usual body twitches just stopped. We had a laugh after the session.


You write so well, Andy. I enjoyed that immensely.
Yes, life in maya proceeds as always. I've never done Reiki--and that is so cool about the twitches and the lucid dream. I've found that when one is focused on the self, then the self often sends messages of its existence in the form of lucid dreams or epiphanies.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:29 am
by rachMiel
Sighclone wrote:The best we can achieve with words is some sort of poetic pointer.

This is true for any symbol: word, image, thought. Everything that arises in the mind is a kind of metaphor.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:36 am
by rachMiel
runstrails wrote:But I wish you well as you explore this fundamental mystery :D.

Back atcha She Who Runs Trails. Nice that you did a forum cameo! Always a treat to hear from you. :-)

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:25 pm
by snowheight
Rob X wrote:
Sighclone wrote:Witnessing does imply dualism and is not a "final" or complete awakening. I think it serves only to help some people who are beginning to become aware of themselves as an entity, be it egoic or personality or whatever. I'm speaking of something different than witnessing a football game.


Okay, Andy. I think that we have a slightly differing interpretation of it. Mine is loosely based on what I remember from Balsekar. What you are suggesting sounds closer to being mindful in my vocabulary - but I'm sure it can be referred to as witnessing too. No wonder Rach is getting a bit confused. :D


Niz told one guy "you don't build a houses on a bridge", but most of his uses of the term witness or witnessing were to describe clarity as identification dissolved. Taken together, his talks about it suggest stages of identification (person/witness/"Absolute"), and "snapping" identification with the witness was something he described as a significant event.

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:39 pm
by rachMiel
snowheight wrote:
Rob X wrote:No wonder Rach is getting a bit confused. :D

Taken together, his talks about it suggest stages of identification (person/witness/"Absolute"), and "snapping" identification with the witness was something he described as a significant event.

Now this makes sense to me: Witnessing as a middle ground between identification with self and Self. A means to an end. Like going to the University of Self until you're ready to graduate and just ... be. :-)

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:20 am
by Sighclone
rachMiel wrote:
snowheight wrote:
Rob X wrote:No wonder Rach is getting a bit confused. :D

Taken together, his talks about it suggest stages of identification (person/witness/"Absolute"), and "snapping" identification with the witness was something he described as a significant event.

Now this makes sense to me: Witnessing as a middle ground between identification with self and Self. A means to an end. Like going to the University of Self until you're ready to graduate and just ... be. :-)


Thanks, Snowman! John Prendergast in his fine new book "In Touch" mentions that while Witnessing is a step forward, it can also be a derailment or sidetrack...he speaks of long time meditators sitting on their cushions watching their thoughts, but not waking up.

Andy

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:05 am
by snowheight
rachMiel wrote:
snowheight wrote:
Rob X wrote:No wonder Rach is getting a bit confused. :D

Taken together, his talks about it suggest stages of identification (person/witness/"Absolute"), and "snapping" identification with the witness was something he described as a significant event.

Now this makes sense to me: Witnessing as a middle ground between identification with self and Self. A means to an end. Like going to the University of Self until you're ready to graduate and just ... be. :-)


but on the other hand, every day is or at least has the potential to be graduation day. :)

the grand canyon
the gulf between
that which sees and what is seen

down below
runs river red
cooling thirst to which is led

all around
which way to look
to the truth not by the book

without time
life to be
that not you and that not me


Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:12 am
by snowheight
Sighclone wrote:
rachMiel wrote:
snowheight wrote:Taken together, his talks about it suggest stages of identification (person/witness/"Absolute"), and "snapping" identification with the witness was something he described as a significant event.

Now this makes sense to me: Witnessing as a middle ground between identification with self and Self. A means to an end. Like going to the University of Self until you're ready to graduate and just ... be. :-)


Thanks, Snowman! John Prendergast in his fine new book "In Touch" mentions that while Witnessing is a step forward, it can also be a derailment or sidetrack...he speaks of long time meditators sitting on their cushions watching their thoughts, but not waking up.

Andy


Image

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:36 pm
by Sighclone
LOL

Re: Innocent patterns: The Ego after Awakening

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:38 am
by runstrails
Love the cartoon, snowy and the poem :D. Thanks!