Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
meetjoeblack
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Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by meetjoeblack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:45 am

What are your thoughts on the use of psychedelics as tools for presence?

I cannot speak for all those since, I am limited to mushrooms and psilocybin. IMHO I can say, I notice a significant degree of presence and or peeling away of layers of ego. My last experience was pretty intense. My first experience, it felt like I went through a portal of just awe and gratitude. I found everything funny and everything was just brighter.

My last experience, I couldn't even meditate or dare try to and when I attempted to, I just tripped out. I tried to pray to shake myself out of the bad trip but, I couldn't which made me trip more. A lot of auditory and visual hallucinations. I mistakenly thought the thoughts in my head were someone having a conversation with me which tripped me out some more. My head sounded like a stadium at a soccer or football game. My hallway felt hollow and I was feeling sick. I didn't eat anything so, I vomited a bit. There was so much sensory input all at once and at one point, it felt like I was having a psychosis. Like I ripped a black hole into my internal and external reality and the lines between the two were merging.

I think I really over did it there but, I think a mild dose, I would have enjoyed a lot more. I was also dealing with politics and a lot of negativity so, I think that state did not help me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on psychedelics as a tool for presence? Its pretty powerfyl. I wanted to try ayahuasca but, after my last mushroom trip, I don't think I am ready and I am unsure I ever will be. I will say, there is an absolute dissolving of ego so, petty shit is peeled away layer by layer. Ideally, being a good place in your life is smarter then in a negative state of mind.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by painBody » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:20 am

I think drugs're fine, as long as you use them responsibly (don't drive on them).

Eckhart would say that taking drugs amounts to "falling below thought", as in - reducing your ability to use the mind as a tool. As opposed to 'rising above thought" - a state wherein your mind is calm but can still be used to its fullest extent to solve problems.

I've only ever abused two drugs 1 - a prescription opiate (painkiller) called Tramadol. It was the most pleasurable experience for me, ever. It gave me a euphoria like nothing else. 2 - Alcohol (esp. red wine).

And yes, both of those were conducive to presence, for me. So, I guess I'm saying, "Go for it ! Just remember to be safe ;)"

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by meetjoeblack » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:09 am

painBody wrote:I think drugs're fine, as long as you use them responsibly (don't drive on them).

Eckhart would say that taking drugs amounts to "falling below thought", as in - reducing your ability to use the mind as a tool. As opposed to 'rising above thought" - a state wherein your mind is calm but can still be used to its fullest extent to solve problems.

I've only ever abused two drugs 1 - a prescription opiate (painkiller) called Tramadol. It was the most pleasurable experience for me, ever. It gave me a euphoria like nothing else. 2 - Alcohol (esp. red wine).

And yes, both of those were conducive to presence, for me. So, I guess I'm saying, "Go for it ! Just remember to be safe ;)"
Interestingly enough, Ecky used acid before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RofybYVNCe4

Fascinating.

http://highexistence.com/topic/spiritua ... xperience/

Like anything, it is just a tool but, the key obv is to transcend without the use of anything but, presence.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Tzidaos » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:17 pm

I've done in Amsterdam twice mushrooms.

Here are my experiences :

The first time was fun with mushrooms, very visual, and a lot of mental travels. But that's all. All plants have their own limits. Their own level. They are not a solution for enlightenment IMO. The trip lasted like 6 hours, we got 22 grams.

The second time was an heroic dose, 33 grams approx, far more powerful in the intensity and lasted less that 3 hours for me.

I stayed into presence for all the session, and my sitter was quite worried at a moment since I wasn't moving at all, and staying calmly sit.

I had visions and sensations, but what I found is that, when you are into presence, you disconnect from the false visions and hallucinations taking place via the plant, in your mind - kin of hypnosis transe indeuced by the plant, and you experiment the mental of the plant so to speak. Shamans call it the spirit of the plant.
When you do that, sometimes, the plant don't like it at all...

I only felt, at the end of the experience, that it was a marvellous test for my presence. Not getting lost into the wanders, colours, visions, sounds, fun... etc. They are just mental things gravitating around presence, that's all. That's cinema for me.

They can have a kind of healing effect on the energy bodies, trying to make you understand things around your psychology, but I thing not everyone is made for this "path". I am not. It makes no changes in the very core of who I am.

I don't recommend to do this, even for fun. This is something artificial,and punctual, nothing really "spiritual" then, for me.
There is only Life.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by meetjoeblack » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:27 pm

Tzidaos wrote:I've done in Amsterdam twice mushrooms.

Here are my experiences :

The first time was fun with mushrooms, very visual, and a lot of mental travels. But that's all. All plants have their own limits. Their own level. They are not a solution for enlightenment IMO. The trip lasted like 6 hours, we got 22 grams.
I agree. I've experienced a lot of loss and death in my life. If I am in a bad state, psychedelics are a living nightmare so, I am very cautious and have not indulged this year. I don't think anything give you "enlightenment." I felt glimpses of what Ecky spoke with Satori while under the influence of a psychedelic trip or other points in my life where I was fully present. I wont foolishly use the term of enlightenment. I once mistakenly thought the experience of Nihilism for enlightenment coming to grips with death, with great loss, and suffering. Like a leaf in the wind, all paths lead to suffering attached or unattached. Present or unaware. It leaves seeking meaning a constant journey.
The second time was an heroic dose, 33 grams approx, far more powerful in the intensity and lasted less that 3 hours for me.
That is insane. Why such a huge dose and such short onset? I did closer to what Terrence McKenna once described as a "heroic dose" and that was 5g. He says the intensity is closer to Ayahuasca/DMT on a heroic dose. I cannot say since I have not indulged in DMT or Ayahuasca. Originally, I wanted to go to a Tea ceremony in Peru with the shamans. After a bad trip, it dawned on me that, I am not ready yet.
I stayed into presence for all the session, and my sitter was quite worried at a moment since I wasn't moving at all, and staying calmly sit.

I had visions and sensations, but what I found is that, when you are into presence, you disconnect from the false visions and hallucinations taking place via the plant, in your mind - kin of hypnosis transe indeuced by the plant, and you experiment the mental of the plant so to speak. Shamans call it the spirit of the plant.
When you do that, sometimes, the plant don't like it at all...
Are you saying, it was a bad a trip? I I saw a youtube video of a girl who went to a Shaman. She saw the plans giving her what she needed. Apparently, she had lime disease and it was setting off a bad trip for her. She could see the plant telling her what she needed to feel better.
I only felt, at the end of the experience, that it was a marvellous test for my presence. Not getting lost into the wanders, colours, visions, sounds, fun... etc. They are just mental things gravitating around presence, that's all. That's cinema for me.

They can have a kind of healing effect on the energy bodies, trying to make you understand things around your psychology, but I thing not everyone is made for this "path". I am not. It makes no changes in the very core of who I am.

I don't recommend to do this, even for fun. This is something artificial,and punctual, nothing really "spiritual" then, for me.
I don't think it is mean to "make changes" unless you speak of insight.

I had a trip were I felt euphoria for the first time in a long having endured a lot of loss, death, suffering. I felt in awe. The colors were bright. The trip was mild but, the onset left me feeling grateful for this life. I was reminded that, I am on a journey in this life, I am seeking something that I have not yet found, something that isn't materialistic. Something of substance that I do not know of yet. I view the world through the lens as a child again with curiosity. I kept thinking, why are people so sad and suffering when everything is funny. I couldn't stop laughing. At one stage, I stood in my backyard during a lightning storm as the rain came down, and I was just inspired to take in the air. As the trip came to a close, I remember reaching out, wanting it to comeback. I remember watching tv shows where they go home after a vacation but, everyone was sad and I never could understand that until I went away. I felt the sadness like I did when my first ever vacation came to an end. Then, I was flooded with gratitude again for having felt something special.

Like everything, it is a fleeting moment but, I do my utmost best to remain grateful for this life.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by alchemizt » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:46 pm

Practicing presence works well on ayahuasca but is way more difficult. Ayahuasca is good in the way it can bring unconscious blockages and fears to the surface which you can then dissolve with presence. Aya is very mysterious, it provides you with different ways to release these blockages like through your visions or physically through puking or shaking. I got a lot of trauma so my ceremonies are often pretty dark

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Fore » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:08 am

alchemizt wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:46 pm
Practicing presence works well on ayahuasca but is way more difficult. Ayahuasca is good in the way it can bring unconscious blockages and fears to the surface which you can then dissolve with presence. Aya is very mysterious, it provides you with different ways to release these blockages like through your visions or physically through puking or shaking. I got a lot of trauma so my ceremonies are often pretty dark
All you are practicing is future dependency of drugs. The body is the temple, not the body high on drugs. No need to force traumas to the surface, let it be natural. The layers unfolding. Sitting on a swing as a child spinning and spinning the two ropes twist and tighten. All you need do is lift up your feet and the tension in the ropes releases without any effort. Taking drugs is adding to the tension, like smoking a cigarette or drinking wine to relax, it is a temporary release, which causes additional tensions in future.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Dcdc » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:52 pm

Hello, my friend.

Here's my take:

I do use mushrooms and marijuana sometimes. But, please, don't understand the idea wrong. Look:

- Ok, I do believe you can be present when you use any substances. I believe you can do your best to be present in any situation. So, when I use these things, I do my best to bring me to the present moment, one breathing per time.

- But I don't think that exists any link between the present moment and these substances. On the contrary: from my long experience with this, I'm 100% sure that all substances that alter our condition (such as mushrooms, weed, alcohol, coffee, medicine) make more difficult to be present. Whoever believes otherwise is just fooling heself.

- "So, why do you use these?" -> It's not a big deal, I just think it's a funny and interesting experience. It's not so different then drinking a glass of wine or something like that. I do my best to be present and to observe the effects these substances can bring. It's not something big or important, really.

One can argue that using absolutely nothing is better for advancing your practice and getting used to being present... And I agree! It's easier to be present when you are natural, and these substances won't help you to understand something and/or to be present.

I just use these only because I think it's funny and interesting, and because I'm very secure about my practice. It's not a big deal. There's no transcendent connection between these two subjects.

Best regards.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:21 pm

I see psychedelics as magnifiers. What you focus your attention on gets magnified - especially in larger dosses. There is a whole new approach about using these substances in micro-dosses. Low enough with mushrooms as to be mostly undetectable. Marijuana low enough to not be debilitating. The research indicates that it enhances creativity and general well being. There's plenty of material out there if you care to do a search. I recommend an in-depth study before you decide.

Most important however, is the focus of attention one has regardless of amount. Focus on presence and you can get some really clear and beautiful moments. Focus on emotional issues and they will get magnified. In that magnification there is also a matter of focus. If the ego controls the focus it can make matters worse. If a genuine interest in understanding and resolving emotional concerns is the focus, much can be accomplished. Sometimes you have less control than you may like, so plan ahead if you chose this path.

If you plan on exploring these possibilities, pay close attention to your experience. Are you better for it on not? The answer may not be clear for some time. The more frequently you take the plunge, the less likely it will be beneficial. You can't live continuously in an altered state. The whole point is to make your everyday experience a better and clearer one. If this is not the result, reconsider your approach.

WW

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by alchemizt » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:24 am

Fore wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:08 am
alchemizt wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:46 pm
Practicing presence works well on ayahuasca but is way more difficult. Ayahuasca is good in the way it can bring unconscious blockages and fears to the surface which you can then dissolve with presence. Aya is very mysterious, it provides you with different ways to release these blockages like through your visions or physically through puking or shaking. I got a lot of trauma so my ceremonies are often pretty dark
All you are practicing is future dependency of drugs. The body is the temple, not the body high on drugs. No need to force traumas to the surface, let it be natural. The layers unfolding. Sitting on a swing as a child spinning and spinning the two ropes twist and tighten. All you need do is lift up your feet and the tension in the ropes releases without any effort. Taking drugs is adding to the tension, like smoking a cigarette or drinking wine to relax, it is a temporary release, which causes additional tensions in future.
Its not like what you think. Life is very mysterious and brings you experiences and tools which can catalyse a deepening of presence in you. These experiences and tools come in many forms. While were all on the same path of awakening, were all on our own unique path. The way your spiritual journey unfolds is unique to you. Your path doesn't involve ayahuasca, I can't explain much about it to you all I can say is it is very mysterious, its beyond anything I could ever understand with my mind, its beyond any of the labels you put on it. When you experience it, you can see that this isn't something that was forced, this is something you were called to, the calling coming from somewhere deep, the ideas of cause and effect don't hold so much weight. I see it like your inner self attracts or guides you to certain conditions or experiences that help you to remember the truth of who you are.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Dcdc » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:29 pm

alchemizt wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:24 am
Fore wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:08 am
alchemizt wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:46 pm
Practicing presence works well on ayahuasca but is way more difficult. Ayahuasca is good in the way it can bring unconscious blockages and fears to the surface which you can then dissolve with presence. Aya is very mysterious, it provides you with different ways to release these blockages like through your visions or physically through puking or shaking. I got a lot of trauma so my ceremonies are often pretty dark
All you are practicing is future dependency of drugs. The body is the temple, not the body high on drugs. No need to force traumas to the surface, let it be natural. The layers unfolding. Sitting on a swing as a child spinning and spinning the two ropes twist and tighten. All you need do is lift up your feet and the tension in the ropes releases without any effort. Taking drugs is adding to the tension, like smoking a cigarette or drinking wine to relax, it is a temporary release, which causes additional tensions in future.
Its not like what you think. Life is very mysterious and brings you experiences and tools which can catalyse a deepening of presence in you. These experiences and tools come in many forms. While were all on the same path of awakening, were all on our own unique path. The way your spiritual journey unfolds is unique to you. Your path doesn't involve ayahuasca, I can't explain much about it to you all I can say is it is very mysterious, its beyond anything I could ever understand with my mind, its beyond any of the labels you put on it. When you experience it, you can see that this isn't something that was forced, this is something you were called to, the calling coming from somewhere deep, the ideas of cause and effect don't hold so much weight. I see it like your inner self attracts or guides you to certain conditions or experiences that help you to remember the truth of who you are.
Hello, my friend. :- )

I already used ayahuasca. But look: I respect all opinions, of course, and as I said I have no problem with (some of) these drugs experiences. I use marijuana, I use mushrooms, and I used ayahuasca.

But, with all due respect, there's a simple explanation for all these experiences: it's basic chemistry happening on your brain.

I'm not saying there's no value in having these experiences. On the contrary: depending on the person, I believe it's possible to have amazing experiences and very interesting reflections on those experiences. I like to do formal and informal meditations when I'm high, for instance. And I had a very strong and interesting experience using ayahuasca as well.

I'm just saying that there's no connection between these chemical reactions and the serious practice of being present. You can, indeed, have wonderful experiences (and can do your best to be present while you are having these experiences as well), but it's not about something magical or something deeper. It's just your mind working and thinking while you're high.

In my opinion, bringing yourself to the present moment and living in a world of awareness instead of thinking always will be something that you pratice one step per time during the ordinary life, when you're not high. This is why so many highly trained monks choose to not even drink coffe or alcohol anymore.

Best regards. :- )

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Fore » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:54 am

alchemizt wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:24 am

Its not like what you think. Life is very mysterious and brings you experiences and tools which can catalyse a deepening of presence in you. These experiences and tools come in many forms. While were all on the same path of awakening, were all on our own unique path. The way your spiritual journey unfolds is unique to you. Your path doesn't involve ayahuasca, I can't explain much about it to you all I can say is it is very mysterious, its beyond anything I could ever understand with my mind, its beyond any of the labels you put on it. When you experience it, you can see that this isn't something that was forced, this is something you were called to, the calling coming from somewhere deep, the ideas of cause and effect don't hold so much weight. I see it like your inner self attracts or guides you to certain conditions or experiences that help you to remember the truth of who you are.
What you are practicing is craving when taking drugs, you are experiencing something which you wish to repeat, be it pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. All of this experiences are contained within your past stock of karma, you do not need to add to this with new exciting drug induced experiences. You do not need drugs to gain the depth of focus and concentration you experienced on drugs, but it may require retreating for some time inwards. Placing your awareness within the body repeatedly, this is difficult but it is the only way to see clearly. Using anything to artificially create an experience of some such or another is going in the opposite direction. You are strengthening your craving and your future suffering.
Sorry but there is no path out of suffering that involves drugs no matter how much you enjoy them. They are to be let go of in order to gain the stability of mind required to begin self examination.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:12 am

Fore wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:54 am
Sorry but there is no path out of suffering that involves drugs no matter how much you enjoy them. They are to be let go of in order to gain the stability of mind required to begin self examination.
How do you explain the wide ranging use of such substances in ancient religious and ceremonial traditions including Christianity, Hinduism, Masonry, and many native spiritual practices around the world? Their whole purpose was spiritual experience. Even the story of Santa Claus is based in amanita muscaria mushrooms. Are the shamans of these spiritual practices simply druggies looking for the next fix?

And have you seen the amazing stories of transformation of those addicted to street drugs and alcohol when given controlled environment applications of ibogaine? Not sure you could convince them that they weren't given a wake-up call.

WW

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Fore » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:30 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:12 am
How do you explain the wide ranging use of such substances in ancient religious and ceremonial traditions including Christianity, Hinduism, Masonry, and many native spiritual practices around the world? Their whole purpose was spiritual experience. Even the story of Santa Claus is based in amanita muscaria mushrooms. Are the shamans of these spiritual practices simply druggies looking for the next fix?

And have you seen the amazing stories of transformation of those addicted to street drugs and alcohol when given controlled environment applications of ibogaine? Not sure you could convince them that they weren't given a wake-up call.

WW
If your practice is simply spiritual experience, then by all means continue with drug use, alcohol, or whatever gives you a thrill.
Although I’m not completely familiar with the practices you mentioned, I would explain any practice which incorporates anything additional to the self examination of mind and body “as it is” as having fallen from its origins purity. Although many practices have at the root the simple practice of bare attention, many due to the difficulties which arise from self examination have incorporated or “added on” to the practice. Essentially watering it down rendering it in effective.
Participants are using such things to give rise to momentary happiness, but ultimately when their effects and the experience wears off they are left grasping and clinging and craving for more.
There is no salvation for these individuals, they are adding to the story.
It’s a tough pill to swallow, and Eckhart and most teachers who wish to reach the masses may not ever directly say this but it is easy to see they are pointing to this.
Perhaps this is why Eckhart s teachings are not widely accepted in some circles.

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Re: Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:37 pm

Fore wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:30 pm
If your practice is simply spiritual experience, then by all means continue with drug use, alcohol, or whatever gives you a thrill.
Your efforts to demean an ancient practice is curious, when I simply asked you how do you explain it's historic use in religious and spiritual practices around the world - which you avoided answering. I'm certainly not advocating for or against. That's an individual choice that should be made carefully and with purpose.

Participants are using such things to give rise to momentary happiness, but ultimately when their effects and the experience wears off they are left grasping and clinging and craving for more.
There is no salvation for these individuals, they are adding to the story.
You can't possibly know this as it relates to every individual on the planet and simply reveals your lack of knowledge on the subject. Do you have personal experience? A close friend or family member who became addicted to something? And what salvation are you talking about? Saved from what?

WW

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