Mushrooms/DMT/Ayahuasca/Psychedelic

[Fore]

What is the case you are trying to make here? Are you speaking from experience, or is it an intellectual analysis? I'm genuinely curious. Now this is just me, but it would seem that if the meditation results you are espousing was all you say it is, you would have a more accepting view on all aspects of the human experience. Isn't such acceptance an element of a clear and expanded consciousness? Why the argumentative intensity?

As to some drugs creating an overwhelming experience, any sudden awakening can be overwhelming and disconcerting. Many in this forum have attested that in their own experience. I did state earlier the importance of intent and guidance.

In my own experience, I have found that hard line approaches to most anything are flawed by their very own inherent inflexibility. Maybe the most valuable rule I have lived by in all my years is the value of never being 100 percent certain of anything. Of that, I am certain...

WW

The case is simply that intoxicating oneself makes ones meditation weak. Those using intoxicants to promote a sense of heightened awareness are game playing. There can be no stability or ability to penetrate to the level at which the sensation and reaction towards occurs, therefore the breaking of these bonds cannot occur. No freedom from this cyclical effect of continuous reaction can occur. Merely momentary or temporary relief effects, from the intoxicants used.
It is walking in the opposite direction, it is blowing up the trauma experienced, intensifying it, bringing it more clearly into view at the surface level. What is needed is to develop in ones awareness, and with a calm, concentrated, very sharp mind, penetrate through these past traumas, seeing them at their deepest core level where we are not overwhelmed by them and can witness, these traumas arising and passing at an incredible rate. We then by non reaction stop fueling this process and allow past traumas to pass away or the fire to burn itself out.
I don’t have to develop an attitude of acceptance towards other methods which are so clearly flawed and rooted in craving. When you see people drowning you can throw them a lifeline. It is not a hardlined approach to remove intoxicants from ones lifestyle. It is certainly not what the vast majority of population do, but most are looking for a cure to their suffering and use intoxicants like a medication of some sort.
It has become quite clear through my own experience the path to freedom from suffering and although my past karma may prevent me from walking this path and reaching the final goal as quickly as perhaps I should, it does not prevent me from seeing those going in the other direction.

[Webwanderer]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is nothing 'momentary' or 'temporary' in a permanent change in perspective. The awakenings gained from such an experience have residual effects that last a lifetime. To clearly see that one's previous belief systems are simply programming adopted from environmental conditions offer a genuine opportunity to consider life anew. Interestingly, an awakening experience such as this often leads to a recognition in the value of a lifetime dedication to meditation.

WW

[Fore]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is nothing 'momentary' or 'temporary' in a permanent change in perspective. The awakenings gained from such an experience have residual effects that last a lifetime. To clearly see that one's previous belief systems are simply programming adopted from environmental conditions offer a genuine opportunity to consider life anew. Interestingly, an awakening experience such as this often leads to a recognition in the value of a lifetime dedication to meditation.

WW

As in a psychologist offering a patient medication to help to gain balance of ones emotions. This is meant to be used as a temporary aid to allow patients to gain the ability to look at these emotions and not over react. Patients are meant to come off of these drugs progressively. All to often though the patient is unable or willing to do the work and look to the medication as a cure for this ailments.
I am extremely hesitant and in fact cannot condone the use of drugs as an effective way to bridge these gaps.
Having undertaken the most serious job of looking at past traumas and having the first hand experience with the extreme difficulty and dedication this takes also seeing the pitfalls and confusion people go thru. I feel that suggesting using a drug to in some way mimic this journey is ludicrous.
We must remain in disagreement on this matter of drug use.

[meetjoeblack]

What are your thoughts on the use of psychedelics as tools for presence?

I cannot speak for all those since, I am limited to mushrooms and psilocybin. IMHO I can say, I notice a significant degree of presence and or peeling away of layers of ego. My last experience was pretty intense. My first experience, it felt like I went through a portal of just awe and gratitude. I found everything funny and everything was just brighter.

My last experience, I couldn't even meditate or dare try to and when I attempted to, I just tripped out. I tried to pray to shake myself out of the bad trip but, I couldn't which made me trip more. A lot of auditory and visual hallucinations. I mistakenly thought the thoughts in my head were someone having a conversation with me which tripped me out some more. My head sounded like a stadium at a soccer or football game. My hallway felt hollow and I was feeling sick. I didn't eat anything so, I vomited a bit. There was so much sensory input all at once and at one point, it felt like I was having a psychosis. Like I ripped a black hole into my internal and external reality and the lines between the two were merging.

I think I really over did it there but, I think a mild dose, I would have enjoyed a lot more. I was also dealing with politics and a lot of negativity so, I think that state did not help me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on psychedelics as a tool for presence? Its pretty powerfyl. I wanted to try ayahuasca but, after my last mushroom trip, I don't think I am ready and I am unsure I ever will be. I will say, there is an absolute dissolving of ego so, petty shit is peeled away layer by layer. Ideally, being a good place in your life is smarter then in a negative state of mind.

I 100% disagree with those who thinks that ayahuasca and related things are helpful to presence. If you used them just few times it's ok(I did it few times in the past too). I know that a guru said that it can lead people to the complete opposite direction and can mess with people's minds. That being said, we don't have control over other people's decisions and people can decide to do whatever they want.

Eckhart and some other spiritual teachers and gurus don't want to say that "don't use these substances" etc. because they know that many-many people in the world use these things and it's even widespread among the meditators/spiritual people/presence practitioners.

So my advice to the people is that always trust your own experience in spirituality. Don't believe me or others but just practise more and more presence in daily life. I believe that most of the people who really practise presence deeply in daily life would naturally stay away from these things even without experiencing them once. Ofcourse there is no black and white in spiritual life so some people(who are deeply practising meditation/presence) can still time to time want to experience these things because of habit etc.

You go with the flow. If you can't meditate, don't. I found a lot of value in the following.

At least you tried it. I am annoyed by people who project their bullshit ideology without any experience. It reminds me of weed being illegal and then, they legalise it to tax it. Now its not bad anymore. Classic.

[meetjoeblack]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is nothing 'momentary' or 'temporary' in a permanent change in perspective. The awakenings gained from such an experience have residual effects that last a lifetime. To clearly see that one's previous belief systems are simply programming adopted from environmental conditions offer a genuine opportunity to consider life anew. Interestingly, an awakening experience such as this often leads to a recognition in the value of a lifetime dedication to meditation.

WW

As in a psychologist offering a patient medication to help to gain balance of ones emotions. This is meant to be used as a temporary aid to allow patients to gain the ability to look at these emotions and not over react. Patients are meant to come off of these drugs progressively. All to often though the patient is unable or willing to do the work and look to the medication as a cure for this ailments.
I am extremely hesitant and in fact cannot condone the use of drugs as an effective way to bridge these gaps.
Having undertaken the most serious job of looking at past traumas and having the first hand experience with the extreme difficulty and dedication this takes also seeing the pitfalls and confusion people go thru. I feel that suggesting using a drug to in some way mimic this journey is ludicrous.
We must remain in disagreement on this matter of drug use.

The spirit molecule book is about iv dmt use on pstients. There's a vice vid on toad venom 5meo dmt use on meth addicts and a successful recovery.

[dwilliams]

Taking psychedelics such as DMT or Ayahuasca can be life-changing. However, the result may depend on how you use it. If you're going to take psychedelics to cure your disease or mental issues, it's important to use it correctly if you want to see the results you desire.