Is it God?

Here you may share how the words Eckhart Tolle have affected your life.
joe
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Is it God?

Post by joe » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:02 pm

So I was listening to Rupert Spira talk about enlightenment and something dawned on me. For those of us who feel the presence of God in our lives, when we meditate or sit quietly in some other way and ask "who am I?", that sense of being that we have that is underneath thoughts, feelings and things is awareness aware of itself. Isn't that God within us? And isn't that the root of all spiritual experience as well as concepts?

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Re: Is it God?

Post by runstrails » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:19 pm

Exactly, Joe! And that awareness is YOU. You are pure being/awareness (God) plus the name and form of awareness appearing as Joe. :D

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Re: Is it God?

Post by joe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:48 am

So how does Jesus figure into this?

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Re: Is it God?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:54 am

The problem with Jesus is that we don't know what he was really like. We only know what others have written and said about him. Do we base our lives around the impression of others, or do we connect to the Source of all that is and get our guidance directly? It's not that we can't or shouldn't use inspiration wherever we may find it. It's that it seems wise that we connect with the best Source possible at any given moment.

WW

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Re: Is it God?

Post by joe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:09 am

What you say is true, but obviously Jesus is important and so ignoring why misses a lot.

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Re: Is it God?

Post by runstrails » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:37 pm

I don't know much about Jesus--but I expect he was self-realized. He knew he was awareness and spoke from that perspective.

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Re: Is it God?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:42 pm

joe wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:09 am
What you say is true, but obviously Jesus is important and so ignoring why misses a lot.
Ignoring? I do not suggest that at all. What I suggest is taking Jesus, whether story or not, in context with what is most helpful to one's own growth in this time, in this now. Let his teachings inspire you where they will. But there is no need to adopt those teachings in exclusivity to all else. There are, after all, so many highly effective present day pointers to direct spiritual contact available.

The point is do what moves you to greater clarity and conscious expansion (if that is what you desire). Only you can determine what that is. Personally, I have found that clarity and expansion is better achieved through inclusion over exclusion.

WW

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Re: Is it God?

Post by joe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:10 pm

I guess what I'm getting at is the importance that Christianity places on the person of Jesus. He must be accounted for as more than just another teacher. He is a central spiritual force, so we need to know where he fits in. This is a question I've been struggling with.

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Re: Is it God?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:30 pm

joe wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:10 pm
I guess what I'm getting at is the importance that Christianity places on the person of Jesus. He must be accounted for as more than just another teacher. He is a central spiritual force, so we need to know where he fits in. This is a question I've been struggling with.
If you believe that then go for it. I just see a direct-to-Source route of alignment as preferable to anything external - even the belief in Jesus. Making Jesus more important than some other source, simply because of name identity and Church proclamations, only serves to separate us from the very Essence that we seek. It creates unnecessary intermediaries.

If your concern and interest in Jesus makes you feel smaller, then you are doing yourself a disservice. (Smaller in that you are a sinner in need of saving.) The Church's teaching that you must be saved from your sins, and belief in Jesus is that savior, can be more detrimental than freeing.

All that said, it won't much matter in the Long run. It will only effect the type and quality of life experience you have as travel this human journey. Well, as I see it, it could also effect the nature of the afterlife experience you have when you leave this one. That's another story.

WW

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Re: Is it God?

Post by turiya » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:36 am

For me, this is how Jesus figures into it :

Jesus represents the idea of "little me"/the seemingly-separate self... the "Son" who must be crucified if we are to see the "Father". After crucifixtion, the Son rises from the dead and returns to Heaven.... After the "death" of the illusion of the separate self, we see that what we truly are cannot die (we realize we are "the Self"... or the eternal, infinite, one Being) and return to Reality.

Christ represents the realization that there is no separate self. ("I do nothing of myself... I and the Father are one...")

So, in this way, every person is Jesus... and potentially Christ.
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Is it God?

Post by runstrails » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:29 am

Nice analogy, Turiya! The metaphorical Jesus.

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Re: Is it God?

Post by joe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:21 am

If that were true, wouldn't any number of ancient teachers do? Why the focus on this particular figure?

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Re: Is it God?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:18 am

joe wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:21 am
If that were true, wouldn't any number of ancient teachers do? Why the focus on this particular figure?
The focus by who? Let's not try to fix a bunch of believers who aren't in this forum. Of course any ancient teacher will do - or modern one for that matter. What really matters is does a teaching (forget the teacher) inspire you to greater clarity on the nature of life and being? To the degree that it does, it has value. Look for value in how it makes you feel, and what clarity it brings. That is the measure of a good teaching (or teacher).

(By the way, the focus on ancient teachers, such as Jesus, by so many comes from indoctrination, not inspiration. Strong habits are often hard to break. Especially when they are anchored by fear and threats of eternal damnation for going astray.)

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Re: Is it God?

Post by joe » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:32 am

So what you are saying is that one can only rely on their experience and judgment. But how does one know that one is seeing things clearly without having something as a guide?

If Jesus has been important for two thousand years, is that a mass illusion? Is it not more reliable to place your anchor on something that is enduring, such as wisdom teachings that have come to us through religion, then to simply say that one should trust oneself? And isn't that type of talk, from Tolle and others, simply derived from wisdom teachings that come from a tradition and put forward for a secular society? But without the anchor of specific spiritual disciplines?

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Re: Is it God?

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:06 pm

joe wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:32 am
So what you are saying is that one can only rely on their experience and judgment.
I'm not saying that at all. The world is full of quality teachings that can inspire one to greater understanding of life while it enhances awareness in general.

But how does one know that one is seeing things clearly without having something as a guide?
Guidance is critical. The question is 'what is that guide?'. Is it an external guide where one relies solely on the claims and statements of others? Or is there an internal guide where one can sense the nature and quality of a teaching for oneself? External guidance is readily available. There is no shortage of people willing to tell you how things are. The Church is an institution dedicated to such telling. Make no mistake however, the Church has its own best interests at heart in building and keeping their congregations. I would say the Church is a mixed bag.

I'm not saying there is no value in adopting a church/religion. There is value in all experience. And if this is what brings you the most peace and understanding, then explore it. I only suggest you keep your eyes wide open and your critical thinking alive. That you are on this forum at all, suggests that something internal is guiding you to consider a larger perspective. Many church leaders would tell you to run while giving out proclamations of hell and damnation. Is this good advice, or is it fear mongering to keep you in the fold?

If Jesus has been important for two thousand years, is that a mass illusion?
Yes and no. Generally speaking, it's no illusion that Jesus has been important to many people for two thousand years. In the context of the world as we know it, that is a fair statement. The illusion is that none of these people have ever met Jesus in the flesh, so they imagine, to the intensity of creating rock-solid belief, that what they are told about him is true. Belief is built upon imagination and the meaning one applies to circumstances in their lives.

It is also worth considering that billions of people today and throughout history believe that Christian teachings about Jesus are wrong and he was not important to them. They have their own beliefs, religious and otherwise. So numbers and time are not necessarily the measure of truth.

Is it not more reliable to place your anchor on something that is enduring, such as wisdom teachings that have come to us through religion, then to simply say that one should trust oneself?
Forgive me but I love this old saw. 'Ships are safe anchored in harbors, but that is not what ships are built for'.

Wisdom teachings do indeed endure. That is their endearing quality. The concern I have with religions is their claims of authority to decide what constitutes wisdom and what is not.

Early in my life the religious scholars knew more of the available teachings than I. So I relied on them to a large degree to increase my understanding. I held them to a critical standard however, as it was my life, my soul, and my responsibility to get it right. In time I recognized there was far more to understanding life and consciousness than they wanted me to know.

There is a lot excellent teachings in scripture. There is however, a lot more outside of it. Much of it is certainly pointing to the same underlying truths. How could it be otherwise if it is indeed Truth?

Consider, ancient teachings tend to be presented in metaphor and stories. These were more easily carried and transferred at the time as few people could actually read. Stories are far more readily remembered. Today, with most everyone able to read, study and explore for themselves, the metaphors are less important to carrying their underlying messages to more people.

And isn't that type of talk, from Tolle and others, simply derived from wisdom teachings that come from a tradition and put forward for a secular society? But without the anchor of specific spiritual disciplines?
I would agree. Truth, spiritual Truth, does not much change. Tolle, and other modern teachers, offer a less metaphoric teaching, and one less encumbered than does mainstream religions of today. The specific spiritual disciplines taught by religions are in part designed to keep followers in the church. The disciplines recommended by many modern teachers of conscious evolution and growth are designed to free students from the distorting influences so prevalent in religious doctrine.

One question the honest seeker of truth must answer: do I have the courage to go it alone? To make my own choices based on my personal relationship with 'God' as I know it? Do I have the discipline to be honest with myself and to put my faith in my genuine intent to explore for, and accept the truth wherever it may lead? Am I willing to set aside current beliefs in favor of a larger understanding, no matter how invested I've been in my current perspective to date?

These are tough choices. It can be lonely out here. It's also vastly freeing. I now know I've given my best to the pursuit of Truth. I feel a sense of comfort in that. And whatever transpires from this point forward, I have no regrets for the path I've taken. I've been as true as I can be within the environment and conditioning I've had to live in. What more can one ask of him/her self?

WW

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